[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

Ahh I totally forgot about Virtue's Ruin. I think I will test it a bit. Only downside coming to my mind right now is Turn 1 Mother of Ruins into Turn 2 Ethersworn Cannonist.

Another possibility might be to play both...the 3 Dread of Night and the 3 Cages and cut the 8th discard and the Ill-Gotten Gains.

I used Ill-Gotten Gains mostly against decks without Silence, Counterspells and Mindbreak Traps for the extra speed. But from time to time I ran into Maverick or Goblin decks with Mindbreak Traps so it became more and more unpredictable :-/

What do you guys think about discard? I have 7 discard spells maindeck. Is the 4th Duress in the board mandatory?
Or will 7 spells do the job?

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Why is that scenario a downside? Just hope they play another duder and make your third land drop. Then all their men are dead.

Yeah, IGG has pretty much been outclassed. It doesn't really serve a purpose any more. I'm not really sure what matchups you would bring the 8th discard in for. If you're playing Carpet, it's better at playing through Thresh's taxing counters, Swarm is better against U combo decks and fish, and most every other matchup requires bringing in some sort of permanent anti-hate.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

Why is that scenario a downside? Just hope they play another duder and make your third land drop. Then all their men are dead.

Yeah, IGG has pretty much been outclassed. It doesn't really serve a purpose any more. I'm not really sure what matchups you would bring the 8th discard in for. If you're playing Carpet, it's better at playing through Thresh's taxing counters, Swarm is better against U combo decks and fish, and most every other matchup requires bringing in some sort of permanent anti-hate.

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The problem in that scenario is: Mother of Runes protects Ethersworn Cannonist from Virtue's Ruin. This is not possible with Infest. I will never find the perfect spell for my needs :D

But I think I will go with Dreads and Cages and cut the Duress and IGG :-)

Greetings Mindlash

Edit: Had mistaken protection to something like: Card can't be destroyed instead of damage would be reduced to zero. My bad :D

same discussion over and over again... my list with little variations last 1-2 months


1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
3 Lotus Petal

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor

1 EtW
2 Past in Flames
1 ToA

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

================
2 Pyroblast
3 Ground Seal
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Notion Thief
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Karakas
1 Lighning Bolt

-Grim +Top, maybe Confidant instead of 2x Thief and a Pyro today


the list follows assumptions - basics are overrated, you win against 9/10 G1 against decks with no GY interaction or MD hatebears, UGR Thresh is good match-up, Deathrite shaman made ANT significantly worse, Ad Nauseam belongs to TES, Abrupt Decay is not so hot as it seems, S&T is bad deck with even worse players, and it's fun... made the list after comparing Mystical Tutor Ant to todays Probe+PIF build (which is actually better =D) and experimentig with Mystical Tutor in PiF build

Not a single Tendrils in the 75?

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Not a single Tendrils in the 75?

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1 ToA and 1 EtW

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Not a single Tendrils in the 75?

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you were few seconds faster... =)

Hi, lately I've been testing against my friend's rock deck(playing the 16 cantrip version) and would like to share some thoughts. Most of my g1s were a cakewalk but things got tricky postboard. Without going much into details, postboard he had the following relevant cards against me:
4 iok/thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 deathrite shaman
3 liliana of the veil
3 surgical extraction
4 sfm + batterskull (to a lesser extend)
and 3 gaddock teeg on top of that

I've been having trouble sideboarding. I feel like I want my two ignorant bliss from the board(which is really cute when ressolves, but also equally rare), leave some number of discard to hit their hymns, surgicals and possibly teeg and bring in removal not to die from a single bear. It seems like I end up siding to much of my business out or feeling not equipped well enough.
I had a crazy thought I could try Izze Charm(Dimir Charm?) In my board. It could replace ignorant bliss(If anyone is still bothering to test it). It it hits all hatebears, can answer discard and other random hate while still 'cantrips' should none of the above mentioned situarions occure.
Could Izzet Charm be a real card?
How would you guys side agains this deck?

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Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy

Hi, lately I've been testing against my friend's rock deck(playing the 16 cantrip version) and would like to share some thoughts. Most of my g1s were a cakewalk but things got tricky postboard. Without going much into details, postboard he had the following relevant cards against me:
4 iok/thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 deathrite shaman
3 liliana of the veil
3 surgical extraction
4 sfm + batterskull (to a lesser extend)
and 3 gaddock teeg on top of that

I've been having trouble sideboarding. I feel like I want my two ignorant bliss from the board(which is really cute when ressolves, but also equally rare), leave some number of discard to hit their hymns, surgicals and possibly teeg and bring in removal not to die from a single bear. It seems like I end up siding to much of my business out or feeling not equipped well enough.
I had a crazy thought I could try Izze Charm(Dimir Charm?) In my board. It could replace ignorant bliss(If anyone is still bothering to test it). It it hits all hatebears, can answer discard and other random hate while still 'cantrips' should none of the above mentioned situarions occure.
Could Izzet Charm be a real card?
How would you guys side agains this deck?

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I don't know your board but I would board something like this:

In : +1 Tropical, +3 Abrupt Decay
Out: -3 Duress, -1 Cabal Therapy

Leaving me with 3 Cabal Therapy after boarding. Abrupt Decay is mainly for Teeg but you can shoot at Lilly too.
Rest looks like the cards Jund brings in...discard, shaman, hymn, extraction. I usually do not board against Jund...you should not loose with ANT against it.

People tend to overboard most of the times and loose to their crippled deck more often than to their opponents hate.

Greetings Mindlash

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

People tend to overboard most of the times and loose to their crippled deck more often than to their opponents hate.

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That was my exect thought. I tend to win more games just going off early and consistently rather than trying to answer every hate card. My thought was that with decay you are only addressing a portion of their hate suit. The point is I could board Izzet Charm that deal with Teeg equally well, but have much broader application. This way you end up not overboarding but having a nice catch—all antihate card that's almost never dead.

Edit: I think I've just convinced myself. Gonna try it out and see how it works out:)

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Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz

I didn't replace any of the core cards in the deck with wishes. I opted not to play the redundant and subpar cantrip that is preordain.

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And other people opted not to play the redundant and subpar tutors that are Burning Wish and Grim Tutor, but in all seriousness I don't think Pre-Ordain makes the deck any slower. I find having 8 Ponder/Pre-Ordain gives the deck a consistent, turn one cantrip so Duress, Cabal Therapy and Brainstorm can be saved for the later turns (3+) where you can maximize their value. Dropping an Underground Sea and Duressing the opponent on your first turn really isn't what you want to have to do with your first land drop and first spell in this deck.

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Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy

That was my exect thought. I tend to win more games just going off early and consistently rather than trying to answer every hate card. My thought was that with decay you are only addressing a portion of their hate suit. The point is I could board Izzet Charm that deal with Teeg equally well, but have much broader application. This way you end up not overboarding but having a nice catch—all antihate card that's almost never dead.

Edit: I think I've just convinced myself. Gonna try it out and see how it works out:)

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If you have the sideboardspace for Izzet Charm you can board it in.

But in my opinion Abrupt Decay is better for killing Stoneforge Mystic, Teeg and Lilly (Izzet Charm can only counter the later)

You can counter the discard spells, but I don't think you will ever have the mana to spare + The Rock plays Wastelands, which makes it additionally hard to counter reliably with the need of red mana.

And the lootingeffect is inferior to the other played cantrips because it makes you loose a handcard and you are already playing against discard ^^

Izzet Charm also eats up sideboardspace, while Abrupt Decay is very good in other matchups (killing Counterbalance for example).

I don't know your maindeck and sideboard though...but I think there are better sideboard cards right now.

Greetings Mindlash

Hello, Im playing Grant Wilkinsons list of ANT. http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/53062. I just dont know why there is one tendrils on SB? Usually if it goes to gy Im still able to PiF it back in action. Maybe EtW instead it?

Yesterday I was at local 8 player tournament and placed 2nd. Beat affinity 2-0, the rock 2-0 and lose to SI 0-2. I felt like I had no chances against it. Ok I got slow hands but like 2 discard (cabal fizzled naming culling the weak while he had dryad arbor on board, Cruel Bargain would have been right choice he had 3 in hand) in G1 and 1 discard in G2. I think Tes would been better because of silences I have played that more.

ANT and all of it's variations have an attrition war against discard heavy decks and gy hate.
Rely more on your cantrips and ad nauseams and less on your hand itself.
It's all about timing and manipulating the top cards of your deck.

Don't be affraid to drop your LED's on the field from turn one or something like it. Pitf against a heavy gy hate board is suicidal

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I am more dependent on red, so I need the second Volcanic.
So far I haven't needed the second Island.

A PiF loop with Grim Tutor costs six mana and six life. Wish into Infernal for a PiF loop costs six mana as well, though it requires one more starting mana, but it doesn't cost life. Additionally, you can Wish for Infernal and go off the next turn using up less mana. I feel Wish plus Infernal has some serious upsides.

Don't you miss Ad Nauseam by the way?

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The initial mana floating after casting the PiF is what is most important to start flashing back your rituals. It is a benefit that you can wish one turn and then have Infernal for the following turn.

I hate Ad Nauseam… Haha. I ran it for a long time, but the Empty wins me more games. Now I need to read what everyone else is talking about. This thread is busy…

Edit: My advice to whosyourdaddy would be to board something like 2 Disfigures to deal with the Teegs/Deathrites and keep in the rest of your discard. If you can deal with Surgical, you can usually beat that kind of deck regardless of how much discard they have. I wouldn't overboard permanent hate based on what you have posted.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

But in my opinion Abrupt Decay is better for killing Stoneforge Mystic, Teeg and Lilly (Izzet Charm can only counter the later)

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Since we are talking about non—blue matchups they are both equally good at killing mystic and teeg. True, charm doesn't kill lily, but does tons of different stuff.

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You can counter the discard spells, but I don't think you will ever have the mana to spare + The Rock plays Wastelands, which makes it additionally hard to counter reliably with the need of red mana.

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If wasteland is an issue, I'd rather not play the card that needs a 4th colour(I run 1 trop side) and stick to UBr. So I guess it kinda speaks for Charm over Decay.

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And the lootingeffect is inferior to the other played cantrips because it makes you loose a handcard and you are already playing against discard ^^

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True, looting is worse than any cantrip we run and is card disadvantage but is still miles better than having a dead removal spell in hand once you're ready to go off next turn.

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Izzet Charm also eats up sideboardspace, while Abrupt Decay is very good in other matchups (killing Counterbalance for example).

I don't know your maindeck and sideboard though...but I think there are better sideboard cards right now.

Greetings Mindlash

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I run a pretty standard prosak list. My board is:
3 Abrupt decay
3 Carpet of flowers
1 Tropical
2 Chain of vapor
2 Ignorant bliss
1 Slaughter pact
1 Karakas
1 Cabal therapy
1 Empty the warrens

I guess the 2 Ignorant bliss could easly go, that leaves my with something like that:
-2 Bliss -1 Pact +3 Izzet charm.
I was hoping to fit in 3 xantid swarms tho, so I'm not sure yet.

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Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy

If wasteland is an issue, I'd rather not play the card that needs a 4th colour(I run 1 trop side) and stick to UBr. So I guess it kinda speaks for Charm over Decay.

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The problem with Izzed Charm is you need to hold red mana open. Ok you can fetch into that mana in the turn you need it like you do with Abrupt Decay. But I have never had a turn in ANT where I sit back, do nothing and leave mana open. You either cantrip, or disrupt or kill. And its not that easy to win through a resolved lilly...

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Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy

Since we are talking about non—blue matchups they are both equally good at killing mystic and teeg. True, charm doesn't kill lily, but does tons of different stuff.

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As I said you can use it if you have the space in your sideboard open. Abrupt Decay does the same thing with hatebears in the non-blue matchup while beeing better in the blue matchups and has more relevant targets like chalice, counterbalance. The question is: Do you build your sideboard against your friend or against the field.

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Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy

I guess the 2 Ignorant bliss could easly go, that leaves my with something like that:
-2 Bliss -1 Pact +3 Izzet charm.
I was hoping to fit in 3 xantid swarms tho, so I'm not sure yet.

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In my opinion the 3 Swarms would benefit you more than the 3 Charms. Swarm definetly is good against als those Show and Tell decks with their leylines and would improve your matchup against these decks, while Charm doesn't do anything relevant your deck isn't already cabable of.

Greetings Mindlash

Reactive countermagic is really bad in this deck. I tried 2 Divert in my SB one time, and it was just awkward and not relevant. I can't imagine how Izzet Charm makes any kind of impact on the game besides being an overcosted spell to kill hatebears. Even if you are on the play, they will still be able to cast discard turn 1 against you.

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Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy

I feel like I want my two ignorant bliss from the board(which is really cute when ressolves, but also equally rare), leave some number of discard to hit their hymns, surgicals and possibly teeg and bring in removal not to die from a single bear.

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Try something like Sensei's Top -- Ignorant bliss is pretty bad, because it's really difficult to hold up 1R when you need to...and it pretty much never resolves against those decks. Top lets you draw your artifacts mana and lands off the top, while keeping your important spells safe, and typically it comes down early enough that they have to Force it if they want to counter it.

I don't think Izzet charm is very good -- you don't generally see hate bears from the same decks you see heavy discard from, and the looting effect is just not very good (especially against a discard deck, a card that is negative card advantage is unplayable). Countering a Hymn or whatever doesn't seem like it's going to happen often enough to be a worthwhile sideboard card (has the same problems as Ignorant Bliss -- impossible to hold up, and even less likely to resolve).

Burning Wish is invincible. I don't have Past in Flames maindeck because the only time I want it is when I have an abundance of mana from rituals, so wishing for it in that situation is acceptable. I just played an out of control game against RUG where I played multiple Burning Wishes, sometimes as counter bait and once to get the sideboard Tendrils for the win. I actually Infernal Tutor'd for Cabal Therapy once to help strip the insane amount of countermagic from my opponent's hand. At one point I played Gitaxian Probe and his hand was Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Stifle. DAFUQ. Much of the time he didn't have a threat but then he got a flipped Delver and I needed my full stock of Infernal Tutors and Burning Wishes to get enough resources to punch through the blue wall. I actually combo'd off to 9 storm between playing stuff and him playing blue spells but then I couldn't finish him off. A couple turns later I resolved an Ad Nauseum at 10 life, went down to 2, stripped away his Stifle finally and Burning Wished for Tendrils to kill him from 19 life. Anyone who says Burning Wish is bad in ANT is retarded.

P.S. In Game 1 I played some mana, Burning Wished for Past in Flames and won on turn 1.

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Originally Posted by th3 w1z4rd

Anyone who says Burning Wish is bad in ANT is retarded.

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Yup, you got me. I'm a registered retard.

Sounds like in that matchup Silence would have been pretty clutch. Maybe you should consider the idea that Burning Wish is a good card, but not at its best in ANT. I know it's hard to divorce statistics from bad beat stories, but ya know. You could maybe try it out.