[DTB] Vial Goblins

Splashing in goblins is meta dependent everyone, I figure anybody who has been playing this deck for about 2 days will figure that out. To splash or not to splash and what to splash is sort of a big question with limitless answers, it is perhaps the leading question of legacy.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

How is nature's claim good ? It doesn't fit any of your game plans except maybe against affinity. In your report it has been good for full taped pernicious deed (needle is obviously better for any deed), and dreadnought which you have warrens/stingsourgers for.

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Is it good or bad? Hard to say. But it can't be definitively one or the other. It has a certain surprise factor that krosan grip can never have, and that is often very useful and gamechanging. 1cc vs 3cc is a huge difference in legacy. The lifegain can be uneventful sometimes and the split second can also be pretty mundane quite often. Is it better than krosan grip? Definitely not, but is it a reasonable alternative to krosan grip, potentially? I think so. I'm sticking to grip for now but we should always stay open-minded.

You also missed all the points GoboLord made on it only three posts up from yours.

@ Humphrey: Really? I guess that's a good point, you can't use the alternative cost on TSH if you have warchief in play! Never thought of that before. OH wait, I have, and I mention almost on every page in this thread now why that doesn't matter so I'm not going to do it for the hundredth time. The vial thing is also irrelevant and I'm not going to get into it.

My point wasn't on comparing nature's claim's and krosan grip's values. I don't like both. In almost every match-ups where you are the beatdown you don't want to give 4 life to the opponent nor loose your tempo by keeping 3 mana open. In match-ups where you are the control deck you have almost nothing to handle except jitte and sometimes vial but if you stick with the game plan of dealing with creatures it should be alright.

There are always exceptions, but they are all answered just better by pithing needle and mana denial (with eventually discard to complement).

I was running green also not that long ago. I first used tin-street hooligan main deck. But even if my experience may fall in the metagame considerations category, I moved it to the sideboard. Don't consider it an argument if you want.

The only main deck card I found justifying a green splash is sylvan library. It completes goblins curve in the 2cc range, helps you hitting your land drops, is synergistic with fetches and matron, helps you find your sb cards, and ringleader... does it make your ringleaders worse ? Of course not, they make them better since you can just pick lands to always have your turn 4 ringleader and have 2 goblins guaranteed on top of the deck.
Outside of sylvan you only have some valuable sb options with choke, carpet of flowers and TSH.

Unfortunately bolt is also very powerful in the current metagame and you can't play Vial+bolt+ sylvan.

I know you swaer on TSH FoulQ, but even in Gobolords report he was lucky that the opp blocked his Warchief, otherwise he would be unable to cast it.

Grip is a rock solid reliable card. It's not perfect in goblins especially but it does what I want it to.

I agree that TSH maindeck is meh sometimes, but I notice many opponents like the jitte route to victory against us, especially lately. I prefer him as a 1-of g1 safety valve (and possibly major tempo booster) over the alternatives: removal #8, SGC #3, MWM #4, or Chieftain #2, or another toolbox target (skirk prospector, lightning crafter, etc.). And g2/3 he is often excellent.

Sylvan library sounds very interesting. Let me know if you test it someday how it goes. However when I played choke it wasn't usually worth it, I mean, of course it has surprise value and will win a few games, but I prefer the more well-rounded REB for my sideboard, choke is just too clunky in any deck for me. Never played carpet of flowers though it sounds interesting. However the U part of U decks are not usually my main concern, its the STP and the creatures.

You could probably get away with 22/23 land, 4 vial + 2 bolt + 2 sylvan (and 1 in the sideboard of each perhaps?), and 29/30 goblins. Though g2/3 might get tricky on the goblin count. Not sure how just 2 bolt would work out though MD.

Yes there really isn't MD cards so much for Rg. But the green splash in goblins is usually pretty light and for the most part it plays like monored. 2 Taigas 8 fetches and then 3 grips and 2 TSH in the 75 is the kind of splash I do when playing Rg.

So why not run Tuktukscrapper? I definately will run him as 1-of as soon i can get a cheap foil one xD
Ok, it cost 4, but that shouldnt matter in the midgame when Jitte goes wild. Also i just added Jittes to my sb to kill opposing ones and maybe can get use of them for myself.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

The only main deck card I found justifying a green splash is sylvan library. It completes goblins curve in the 2cc range, helps you hitting your land drops, is synergistic with fetches and matron, helps you find your sb cards, and ringleader... does it make your ringleaders worse ? Of course not, they make them better since you can just pick lands to always have your turn 4 ringleader and have 2 goblins guaranteed on top of the deck.

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Did you test sylvan library a lot? Has anyone else? I have never thought of using this card in goblins but i think i may try it. It seems like a very interesting card for the deck, especially at that 2-drop spot.

As I said I stopped running green. But I did test the sylvan library build extensively and I can say the card is excellent in goblins. Again it's the only one I found justifying a green splash. To answer TossUsToLions I'm probably the only one to have tested it. I'm that kind of guy who think about cards out of nowehere. Like running daze in DDFT this month (now everyone is playing it lol). There is one downside though. It is fundamentally made for goblins builds that are more on the control side imo. I've been playing very controllish goblins build for a long time (which means for example running only 1 piledriver) because I considered goblins like a control deck with lots of CA and mana denial.
The reason for this is that even though the card perfectly fits for a lot of reasons, like Zac Hill would say it doesn't have haste except when it is countered. It's an investment for the whole game to play it on turn 2.
I recently completely changed my philosophy on the deck getting back to a philosophy of fire, that's why I moved back to Rb. Won't spend time explaining why, I probably could write an entire article on this.
That's an opinion though, and I didn't test it in a build with 4 piledrivers. It might be as good or even better. You sometimes have suprises in testing.

On a side note with sylvan library I chose to run a sideboard full of one-ofs. Library's manipulation every turn improves a lot the value of one-ofs so you can play a bunch of silver bullets in your board to optimize it.
The concept of library's manipulation was the basic idea that lent me to testing it in the first place. A lot of the successful decks in legacy have a lot of library manipulation. I figured out if goblins wanted to be top tiers again it should have to adapt the same way.

@Humphrey : do never ever play jitte in goblins sb, this is too much of a tempo loss. Destroying jittes for 2 mana isn't enough to warrant its inclusion at all.

In the wake of Jace 2.0 and the shift from a tempo oriented meta to a having a lot more control decks in the format, would Choke be a decent card for our sideboard? Has anyone tested Choke? I'm not sure if I can find room, but it sure seems good against a lot of the slow blue decks that enjoy so much succes lately.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

In the wake of Jace 2.0 and the shift from a tempo oriented meta to a having a lot more control decks in the format, would Choke be a decent card for our sideboard? Has anyone tested Choke? I'm not sure if I can find room, but it sure seems good against a lot of the slow blue decks that enjoy so much succes lately.

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Blood Moon is pretty much always better than Choke and has more applications against decks like Lands. REB is a better SB card against blue decks in general too.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

In the wake of Jace 2.0 and the shift from a tempo oriented meta to a having a lot more control decks in the format, would Choke be a decent card for our sideboard?

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No. Just use Pithing Needles.
Seriously.
It stop half the problematic cards that are discussed over and over and over around here...

Well if the controlplayer is able to play Jace and protect him, its too late anyways.
And he wont bounce most of yourr stuff (Piledriver, Matron, Ringleader, MWM) or its quite useless (Warchief, Chieftain), so basically its a Brainstorm for 4 ;)

Jace 2.0 is by no means a problem card, sorry if my post made it come across that way. The Jace control decks are resilient and very consistent, so we need a plan to beat them. That plan could involve just playing our standard game, but I figured having a way to steal some free wins would be nice if the deck starts to show up in big number. That said, with the recent SCG Open results in mind, I think I have overestimated what Jace would do to the metagame, thus Choke might be too narrow.

Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon are cards definately worthy of consideration right now. I'm not sure how they compare against Choke though, have to test that some day, some time.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

No. Just use Pithing Needles.
Seriously.
It stop half the problematic cards that are discussed over and over and over around here...

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Which problematic cards does it stop exactly? And against which decks would you side them in?
The cards Goblins has trouble dealing with are Hymn to Tourach, Empty the Warrens/Tendrills, Engineered Plague, Tarmogoyf, Firespout, Moat and Phyrexian Dreadnaught; Needle doesn't stop any of them and doesn't stop their setup either.

The insane showing of UG Madness Survival at SCG Minneapolis could indicate that Needle is correct regardless, but I do not agree with your statement that Needle stops anywhere near half of the cards we have problems against. I guess it's acceptable to board in against Counter/Top decks, but it's presence is noparticulary needed nor busted there.

In other news;
One thing I noticed is that Goblin Sharpshooter might be worthy of a spot in the maindeck again. Between the uprise of TES, the new kid in town UG Madness and the good performances of Goblins there are quite a few decent targets.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

In other news;
One thing I noticed is that Goblin Sharpshooter might be worthy of a spot in the maindeck again. Between the uprise of TES, the new kid in town UG Madness and the good performances of Goblins there are quite a few decent targets.

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...not to mention: Bitterblossom's Token, Belcher's Goblin-Token, Thopter-Foundry's-Token....

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Originally Posted by Mantis

Which problematic cards does it stop exactly? And against which decks would you side them in?
The cards Goblins has trouble dealing with are Hymn to Tourach, Empty the Warrens/Tendrills, Engineered Plague, Tarmogoyf, Firespout, Moat and Phyrexian Dreadnaught; Needle doesn't stop any of them and doesn't stop their setup either.

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I didnt mean it resolves ALL our problems. Also, is there a card that answers all those problems? If there is, please, let me know...
Anyway...
Do you really have problems with Tarmogoyf? Warren Weirdings and Perish are friends.
E Plague? Chieftain/Liege/Grip help here. Also, Explorer.
Firespout? Liege/TukTuk Explorer.
Moat? SGC/Lightning Crafter/Crafter. Also, kill them before turn4...
Dreadnought? Weirdings/Stingscourer/TSH/Grip...
Hymn? Card Advantage.
Tendrils? Well, there really isnt a card to deal with it right now...

Really. If we ever have a 1cc colorless card that answerer all those problems...

What Needle DOES answer: (Bolded are the ones I think are the really problematic ones)
Sensei's Divining Top (therefore CB/Top lock)
Umezawa's Jitte (and ALL other equipaments)
Qasali Pridemage (After naming Jitte)
Survival of the Fittest
Grim Lavamancer
Veldaken Shackles
Sterling Grove
Thopter Foundry
Wasteland
Putrid Imp (yes)
Goblin Charbelcher
Mosswort Bridge
Shelldock Isle
Knight of the Relicary
ALL Planeswalkers
Grindstone
Mother of Runes
Vampire Hexmage (and the combo)
Engineered Explosives
Sneak Attack
Pernicious Act

2nd part of the question:
I side it in against:
Merfolk: Mutavault/Waste/Corahelm Commander/Vial (if we dont have on opening).
Bant: Top (if he is a good player) and Qasali.
CounterTop: Top
Landstill: Deed, EE, Factory.
(4 of 7 off the DtB)
Others:
Survival
Painter
Lands
Loam
The Rock (maybe)
Belcher
SnT
Thopter
Death and Taxes
Cephalid Breakfast
Aluren
...

Well, to sum up, I don't think there is a card as versatile as Needle.
I'm not saying it is the best card for all those situations, but is a damn fine one.

Ps: just to add: I even got the chance to name Saproling Cluster once, so thats fun =]

Sensei's Divining Top (therefore CB/Top lock) ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin would be better than Needle here
Umezawa's Jitte (and ALL other equipaments) ____ with G splash it's obv. Grip/Nature's Claim. In Rb it's possible to keep creatures away from jitte
Qasali Pridemage (After naming Jitte) ____ I'd let Pridemage eat Jitte (if I was to play Jitte
Survival of the Fittest ____ G splash again...or graveyard hate!
Grim Lavamancer ____ no SB card at all:any removal (never found him problematic though)
Veldaken Shackles ____ G splash... or just more Goblins
Sterling Grove ____ what??? They simply sacrifice in resp. Any Goblin would speed you up here and do much better
Thopter Foundry ____ agreed, those decks have many targets for Needle...Sharpshooter
Wasteland ____ How is Wasteland a problem?? Any Other Goblin would be better here
Putrid Imp (yes) ____ any removal, graveyard hate
Goblin Charbelcher ____ Mindbreaktrap, Chalice, Sharpshooter (against the other WC of course)
Mosswort Bridge ____ no SB card at all: Wasteland, Ports seem enough to me
Shelldock Isle ____ Wasteland, Ports again
Knight of the Reliqary ____ Perish
ALL Planeswalkers ____ agreed
Grindstone G splash again
Mother of Runes ____ agreed
Vampire Hexmage (and the combo) ____ no SB card at all: Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Wasteland are enough
Engineered Explosives ____ [i]no SB card at all. How is Explosives a problem? I mean our curve is balanced at cc1-3, it's never a boardsweeper[i]
Sneak Attack ____ agreed, G splash maybe? =)
Pernicious Deed ____ agreed

2nd part of the question:
I side it in against:
Merfolk: Mutavault/Waste/Corahelm Commander/Vial (if we dont have on opening). ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin is better here
Bant: Top (if he is a good player) and Qasali. ____ Perish is way better here
CounterTop: Top ____ no SB card at all: if they have CB before you have needle you will never resolve it
Landstill: Deed, EE, Factory. ____ agreed (well...EE is not problematic I think)
(4 of 7 off the DtB)

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I agree with you that Pithing Needle is nice...but for me it's nothing more. I tried it out too, but oftentimes I just didn't want to bring it in because in most cases there were more effective cards against those decks. Plus, oftentimes it's just not as good as any other Goblin in your deck. I added alternatives for needle to your list above in italics
I guess with the right tactics and you can do well without Needle. I use my SB slots for cards that save my ass. Needle is not that good in saving our asses, because it's only "nice" and not gamebreaking-good.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Sensei's Divining Top (therefore CB/Top lock) ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin would be better than Needle here

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Not an argument

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Umezawa's Jitte (and ALL other equipaments) ____ with G splash it's obv. Grip/Nature's Claim. In Rb it's possible to keep creatures away from jitte

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Sometimes it is possible. Sometimes not.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Qasali Pridemage (After naming Jitte) ____ I'd let Pridemage eat Jitte (if I was to play Jitte

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Jitte is bad in goblins

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Survival of the Fittest ____ G splash again...or graveyard hate!

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I prefer Rb. I also have Grave hate.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Grim Lavamancer ____ no SB card at all:any removal (never found him problematic though)

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Needle is not just for him in decks that use him.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Veldaken Shackles ____ G splash... or just more Goblins

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Again, not aways a possibility.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Sterling Grove ____ what??? They simply sacrifice in resp. Any Goblin would speed you up here and do much better

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Needle is 1cc, Grove is 2cc. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Thopter Foundry ____ agreed, those decks have many targets for Needle...Sharpshooter

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I also have Shooter.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Wasteland ____ How is Wasteland a problem?? Any Other Goblin would be better here

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Well, it saved my ass many times, with Crucible out or not.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Putrid Imp (yes) ____ any removal, graveyard hate

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Needle comes online before he can discard anything if you go 1st. Also, I do have grave hate you know...

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Goblin Charbelcher ____ Mindbreaktrap, Chalice, Sharpshooter (against the other WC of course)

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I don't use slots specifically against combo, but thats my choice. It's nice to have a card that serve this purpose aswell.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Mosswort Bridge ____ no SB card at all: Wasteland, Ports seem enough to me

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I really like maxing my outs here. Up to choice I guess.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Shelldock Isle ____ Wasteland, Ports again

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Again. Rather have 10 answers than 6-7...

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Knight of the Reliqary ____ Perish

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Good thinking...

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

[B]Grindstone G splash again

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not needed.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Vampire Hexmage (and the combo) ____ no SB card at all: Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Wasteland are enough

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Are not enough. Sting only works if you have Vial@2, because he sacs EoT. He can do it to responde to Waste. WW is really a good choice.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Engineered Explosives ____ [i]no SB card at all. How is Explosives a problem? I mean our curve is balanced at cc1-3, it's never a boardsweeper[i]

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I really don't like when my opponent opens with: land, EE, go.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

[B]Sneak Attack ____ agreed, G splash maybe? =)

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not needed. Also, they usually don't pass priority before putting a 15/15 into the battlefield...

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

2nd part of the question:
I side it in against:
Merfolk: Mutavault/Waste/Corahelm Commander/Vial (if we dont have on opening). ____ no SB card at all: every Goblin is better here

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You're really confidant against Folk. I'm not. I even put ReB in. To me, an 1cc card that answers all those problems is worth boarding.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Bant: Top (if he is a good player) and Qasali. ____ Perish is way better here

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Agreed. I also run Perish

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

CounterTop: Top ____ no SB card at all: if they have CB before you have needle you will never resolve it

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Needle is 1cc. Drop it turn 1. Also, I know that is hard to resolve a Needle against CB, but it is a MUST counter for them, so often enough they have to flip Top, leaving us open for any other spell. Also, I have ReB, so can kill CB in response to Top activation.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I agree with you that Pithing Needle is nice...but for me it's nothing more. I tried it out too, but oftentimes I just didn't want to bring it in because in most cases there were more effective cards against those decks. Plus, oftentimes it's just not as good as any other Goblin in your deck. I added alternatives for needle to your list above in italics
I guess with the right tactics and you can do well without Needle. I use my SB slots for cards that save my ass. Needle is not that good in saving our asses, because it's only "nice" and not gamebreaking-good.

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I know the deck does well without Needle, but IMO it does better with them.
I also realize it is not a "saved my ass" type of card. It is a crippling card. At 1cc, you can stifle your opponent strategy, and that is a huge tempo boost. And I realize you have others answers to all problematic cards. But having an 1cc, that can handle them is too much valuable for me.
Also, I like to think of it as a swiss knife. I usually don't board it in for just 1 target. All decks it comes in (except combo) have 2-4 juicy targets for Needle. If there is just 1, it is usually not worth it (again, combo exception).

Ok I think I understand you a bit better now, thanks for explanation.
Still I'm not convinced that this card would possibly cover one slot in my SB, but this is about playing style I guess.

I'm interested how your SB looks like with Needle, would you like to share it?

I did about 20 games of quick two fisted testing UG Survival Madness against Goblins and have to say that Survival did seem to have the upper hand. Two fisted testing is nowhere near perfect, the additional information obviously influences decisions from both sides. The goal of the exercise, however was not to determine the matchup percentage but instead determine how the matchup plays out and what key factors are.

What I've found is that Survival gains an almost unsurmountable advantage once it's namesake hits, even Perish didn't save me most of the time. They also have Jtite, a second big problem. I expect the deck to become quite popular as it's just a very good deck. An answer is in order, the two options are Needle and Krosan Grip. I tested Needle and was pleasantly surprised with it's effectiveness. I did not test Krosan Grip, will do that today.

I also agree that Needle could be quite effective against Landstill-esque decks. However I have my doubts about your Merfolk plan, as long as you draw Goblins and lands you should win, as all Goblins are just so good against Merfolk. By siding in Needle, you dilute your deck and the chance of drawing a healthy mix of Goblins and lands decreases. I do side in REB against them, because they are in my sideboard anyway.

Because of Madness Survival my opinion on Needle has changed, I might play it after all.

Just want to note something from a psychologist's point of view:

Our estimates of what decks "become popular next time" are heaviliy influenced by what we think about in our free time.
e.g. When I think a lot about how to beat ANT I am more likely to expect that deck at the next tournament. Therefore I prepare my sideboard for that and I may be disappointed because I just won't face it.
To "protect" ourselves from this effect it's a good idea to look at meta-breakdowns of the last tourneys.

Magic is much about psychology, maybe this will help.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Ok I think I understand you a bit better now, thanks for explanation.
Still I'm not convinced that this card would possibly cover one slot in my SB, but this is about playing style I guess.

I'm interested how your SB looks like with Needle, would you like to share it?

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My list and SB are preety much the same I run in my last 2 champs here and on post #5083 in this thread (where I have played Vengevival.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre / Planar Void (depending if I expect Dredge/Reanimator/Loam/Survival
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast

4th Perish floats between 2nd ReB or 5th grave hate.
In my list, P. Needle could be: Combo hate; Blood Moon; K.Grip if you're playing green, though I like the way it is now.

I understand that Needle is not the most busted card printed, but didn't want people to disconsider it so easily.

@Vengevival: I do not think the MU is in theyr favor. You can read my games on post 5083.
We have grave hate to deal with it; Perish to deal with it; Needle to deal with it (or K.Grip); Knesis, that also helps a lot here, so is just a matter of choosing what route you want to play. Usually, Perish+a grave hate solve it.
I do believe Vengevival is a very good deck, but think our 75 are already prepared for it.