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I haven't played Rock in a tournament since back when Goblins was much more common, but my immediate first includes against it were Engineered Plague and Jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
I notice that no one has mentioned plague yet. To those who play this deck way more than I do, is this no longer a valid card, or is it something that's simply been dropped due to meta changes away from tribal?
Yeah, tribal isn't as prevalent, so Plague is gone. Also, there are options (Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Darkblast) that accomplish mostly the same goal as Plague does, but cheaper and at Instant speed.
this is rather intresting how much of a discussion my call for help caused :P
basically you suggested 2 different boarding plans where the following cards will be taken out in both cases
2 vindicate
2 liliana of the veil
and 3 thoughtseize in case i want to go with deed as well
i was wondering why you did not suggest boarding out elspeth, as she has the highest manacost
basically what i used to board was (sometimes actually i left liliana in, sometimes she was quite good against goblins for me, but other times she was quite crappy as well)
- 1 elspeth
- 2 vindicate
- 0-2 liliana
- 2-4 thoughtseize/ cabal therapy
for
+2 golgari charm
+2 deed
+3 kitchen finks
most of the time this lead to strange situations where deed was really not that good/not able to remove the main threats on board, or to slow to really help me out, because of their manadenial.
with this boarding plan it happened very often that a lackey blew me out of the game, even with a goyf-wall in game (stingscourger is a bitch)
the two main threats lackey could possibly put into play are siege gang commander and ringleader, and also matron
both approaches have their valid points, but since boarding in deed often was not really usefull i might just try Esper3ks approach with still using discard, as basically what hurts us most is the come into play effect these problematic goblins have.
thanks a lot guys, it is awesome that everyone is allways eagerly trying to help other players here
Except if you're down to 2-3 discard spells, you have a significantly worse chance on hitting them in the early turns you need to in order to prevent the Ringleaders, SGCs, etc. from coming down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
@AggroSteve: Yeah if you're playing Elspeth, you should board her out here. In the matchup vs Goblins, they can generally way out produce Elspeth in token generation so her 1/1's usually won't do too much (you'll also rarely want to pump since you may be dead on a return swing). Really, test out different configurations ancho with whatever you're most comfortable with.
In my post you quoted, I specifically stated that if you deal with lackey (STP, drs block, dark blast if u board it in like I do) then ringleader will be stranded in hand for quite some time. U don't need t1 discard if their ringleader and scg are stranded in hand until their natural turn 4/5.
this is partly my problem, i really want to get rid of lackey before he can attack, because gofy or Dearthrite shaman blocking him was not really efficient enough for me, as goblin players have some outs to a goyf or deathrite staring at their lackey (obviously depending on the list). so removing lackey gives us quite some time, both playing a creature or playing discard is kind of a gamble, as you may not be safe from a lackey connection by playing a creature, and if playing discard will not be strong if there are multiple targets you would like to hit, because the goblin player would get to much of an advantage of getting one of his bombs in playQuote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
if lackey connects deed will probably be to slow, so i will really try the discard route on their key goblins, as it could buy me the time to establish enough of a board position to grind him out
thanks again guys for your insight
Put the KotR + GSZ build back together; I rebuilt my Esperblade deck and needed SFM+Souls in there more than Junk. God this deck feels slow again. Bleh.
In my experiences it's been totally the opposite feeling. Souls and equips is just too grindy for me and becomes predictable (I feel). The GSZ package just gives me so many more directions to go in, but maybe that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Got my goyfs and thoughtseizes in! Woooooooooo! I went to FNM last night and had a good time.
Round 1: Played against Tin Fins:
Game 1: He mulls, I mull, he flashes a hundred cards and I see both dark ritual and shallow grave. I keep a DRS hand. I inquisition him and he scoops thinking I don't know what he's on.
Game 2: The nut. Turn 1 DRS, Karakas, Surgical. He plays a land and passes. He scoops turn 2 when I play a karakas after DRS. I have second deathrite and surgical in hand with a Cabal Therapy for Shallow Grave.
Round 2: Scapeshift Nic Fit
Game 1: I tear apart his hand I draw a bunch of cards, but this matchup is so horrendously one-sided without Goyfs (I didn't get them until this morning). He just started dropping Huntsmans and Thragtusks, he finishes me off with a GSZ for Vet, Pyroclasm to blow him up, scapeshift for lethal.
Game 2: He mulls to 4. He unfortunately gets both Valakuts, I waste both of them and while he lasts forever because the deck can just stall for days I close it out with 2x 9/9 knights. He somehow got up to 6 lands, and he found all 3 of his Pernicious Deeds going 3 for 1, 2 for 1, 2 for 1, then followed up with a Thragtusk. For a split second it looked pretty scary but knights get there.
Game 3: I keep a land heavy hand, I should have mulled. I draw 4 or 5 lands over the next few turns and he scapeshifts me for 36 on turn 6 or something like that.
Round 3: UW Miracles
Game 1: I patiently put out one threat at a time, I have a double bob / stoneforge hand. I run out the stoneforge, I put batterskull into play, he messes up his terminus and put a RiP on top. I get in for 5. It's just grindy. I force him to 1 for 1 with terminus's until he runs out of cards, I bank a Lingering Souls for a -long- time until I feel it's right to play it. I equip the batterskull to one of the tokens, and in a few turns he's dead.
Game 2: I sculler away a Blood Moon and force him to Plow the sculler. He slams blood moon, but I had Plains / Swamp in my hand. Over the course of the game it ended up hurting him a lot more than it hurt me. My hand was bobs and stoneforges. Eventually a Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge, and Batterskull end the game.
Game 3: We play a third game for fun, I don't remember it exactly, but I won. I recall seeing a hand with a blood moon from him, I sculler it, he kills it, I GSZ for 0 to flashback therapy on it and take the game from there.
And I'd agree, Knight is simply too powerful not to run. GSZ is also amazingly powerful. Arsenal could you post your GSZ / Knight build?
Hi guys, preparing for GP Straßburg atm, after some thinking i put together this list
3x Scrubland
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
4x Wasteland
3x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library
SIDEBOARD
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Pithing Needle
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Gravediggers Cage
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Stony Silence
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Plague
1x Humility
List is pretty straight forward, with big dudes and lots of Discard as I expect lots of Combo there. Sideboard feels weird but i dunno how to do it better. Will test it tommorow, maybe it will do better than I think.
Will tell u how it worked
I think if that's the direction your list is going, I think it looks good!Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
-Matt
the only thing i would miss in your list is vindicate
wasteland + hymn + vindicate is quite a effective manadenialplan, besides i would not want to have no answer to opposing planeswalker
So a friend and I were talking about sideboards and stuffs, the current meta, etc. I think I've underestimated the power of some cards strictly based on our deck's gameplan. I'd just like to say I think that I misjudged Thalia a bit too early, and dismissed it without testing hours to back it up. I don't have testing hours to back up the claim that it's amazing, but so far, so good.
In our testing and discussion, Thalia is a beating against the decks were don't like to see anyway. Against Esperblade, Helm, Sneak Attack, and Storm, adding +1 to everything is very good, even if it hurts us a bit. I initially didn't like the card since we're a spell-based board-control deck, but I feel like Thalia can give us an edge in the matchups were care about. Stony Silence is a bad answer to Esperblade, whereas Thalia means all their removal is costing so much more, giving a better edge. Thalia slowing down Sneak Attack is also very good, and has great value against Storm. We also can play Gaddock Teeg and double up on the pain against the decks we don't want to see, or slow them down enough so we can use our cards to a greater extent.
So here's the board we were thinking of:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Grafdigger's Cage/Grave-hate slot
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Humility
1 Stony Silence
Now personally, I would cut a few things since this is what he suggested. Recall from before that this was my sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Golgari Charm
2 Blind Obedience
2 Stony Silence
I'm going to try this out for a few weeks before Seattle and see what happens:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Grafdigger's Cage/Grave-hate slot
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Gaddock Teeg
+3 Slots
It's not that I dislike Humility, since I think it's a great card, and the same with Stony, but i have to figure I'll run into other decks where those won't be as required. I'm on the fence of packing any grave-hate at all, but I always seem to run into at least one graveyard based deck throughout the weekend. I'm thinking either:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Surgical Extraction (again, not the best slot, but also for the Combo or Jund matchup)
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
+1 Open (maybe Loam? Duress? Darkblast?)
I'm also just wondering about the prevalence of RIP, since it totally mucks our guys. Having Sorin is a nice out since producing guys is good, but I'm curious how ubiquitous RIP actually is, and what's the best way to mitigate its effects. Having creatures that are buff on their own, like Obstinate Baloth, Thrun, or even Loxodon Smiter could be useful.
-Matt
Thalia has been in my board almost since the beginning, she's a total house against combo decks. At Edison, in my 8 rounds against Combo, the games that I won involved dropping her turn 2, Stoneforge turn 3, flash in and equip Thalia with a SOFAF and beating them to death.
I'm not going to suddenly switch to SFM now, but I get what you mean.
-Matt
Oh not at all, but the point is, she's a total house. You don't need SFM to win with her, it was more that if you drop her turn 2 and provide a fast clock, you're in the driver's seat. Turn 1 discard, turn 2 thalia is a back-breaking play against any combo deck. I don't think we need her for Esperblade, I may try bringing her in however and seeing how that goes. I just got my Goyfs and Thoughtseizes in so the whole stoneforge thing is out.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
When I was testing Maverick against them, it was great. Slowing down Lingering Souls is great for us since we can beat in faster, Jace comes on Turn 5, Verdict is Turn 5, Snapcaster and flashback is much harder, etc. I was very surprised at how good she was, especially in a deck playing little dudes, nevermind in a deck like ours with 4/5's and 6/6's.
-Matt
Thoughts on Celestial Purge as some nice tech for Jund and Sneak? Blows up Sneak Attack or kills Griselbrand, and is extra removal against Jund.
-Matt
I'm not talking about needing discard on T1. I'm already assuming you're dealing with the Lackey anyways. I'm saying that even if you deal with Lackey, you still need to have discard to take care of the Ringleaders/SGC preemptively. So, we still need to see it within the first three turns or so. With no real library manipulation, we need to maximize our chances of seeing said discard to deal with their problematic mid/late game key cards since our pinpoint removal and sweepers won't usually deal with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I'm in a quandry now...I ended up trading for a 3rd SFM and a 3rd Liliana. My list is super tight right now and I'm not sure how/if I should get either of those up from 2 in the maindeck to 3. My list is a couple pages back.
EDIT: List below.
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Lingering Souls
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Treetop Village
Sideboard is open-ended right now, in transition. I have settled on *not* using NO-Pro for now. It's just too convoluted when sideboarding. Besides, the original reasoning was to have an option against Jund decks. With maindeck Souls/SFM I think the Jund matchup is good enough without any serious additional hate (other than Surgical Extraction.)