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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Slight change to wishboard/sideboard for this week
out: batterskull, pridemage
in: faerie macbre x2 (sp?)
I think bounty for the fair matchup might be enough (besides all the life gain main), pridemage still good but didn't do much.
faerie is awesome against renimates.
Maindeck changes are:
safekeeper -1, bayou -1, StP -1
vindicate +1, ooze +1, karakas +1
I'll keep you guys posted.
Would somebody be so kind as to point me in the direction of an updated scapewish list? The most recent ones I have seen on the thread are from June. Thank you in advance, I'm excited to transition from a BG Lilliana Natural Order list to one with an alternative 4cc Sorcery finisher.
-Jade
As far as I know the list from the OP is the most up to date. It is Arian's signature list and I only cut a Chameleon Colossus from there to make it 60 cards for the OP. The deck does what it does and therefore doesn't change that much.
so basically the white NicFit is turning into an aggro-control list... The feeling I get it's just a Junk list with Explorer/Therapy ramp into fatties.
Al least with the Archangel list we get some way of ending the way quickly and in 1 swing. Even if the combo doesnt get used every game that shouldnt be the reason to dismis this idea.
It's a fun list to play but in its current form it just lacks what I like to see in NicFit (and what is a possible addition) THe old Rector list had it, the Archangel list has it... The Voice of Resurgence list doesnt have it.
We could just go back to the old Junk decks and play with Wastelands and Knight of the Reliquary and forego the Explorer/Therapy.
I'm not sure how Tao's Voice list runs, but I assure you not all white non-Rector/non-Archangel lists play like the agro Rock lists with Knights, Bob, and Wasteland. My current build is more of a classic Rock control. I made the switch over from Bob, Goyf, SFM, and DRS. That deck was threat after threat until either my opponent didn't have an answer or I didn't draw a threat. My current one draws out the game, exhausts my opponents resources, and then puts me in a position where my threats are better than theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by XdeckX
It's all about play style. I regularly test against my old Rock list because I want to see if I'm wasting my time with Explorer/Therapy. So far I've been pleased with the changes.
Well obviously NicFit is grindy as hell no matter the build. I'm just used to the raw power and combo finish of ScapeWish (as that's the build I play the most)
The Archangel list Ariarhrod posted before (with Living Wish) was way more flexible which made me feel much more like a NicFit deck than the white list currently tested by Tao and Mono-Green.
Dont get me wrong. Perhaps the Archangel is a fluke after all but its just more like the NicFit deck I enjoy playing than the Voice deck Tao posted. I don't know what's better right now. Other than running it on Cockatrice there isn't really a way of testing it since there aren't any tournaments being run right now (due to summer holiday)
The feeling I got yesterday when running a variation of the Voice build was I hate having to play against any form of combo with this list. I even struggled against Goblins (although that can happen with just about any deck if the goblin player has a descent draw)
Got my ass handed to my by Lands (but that was because I only say 1 decay in the top 30 with having 3 decay and 3 deed after boarding)
Maybe I should take a little break from NicFit anyway :P I would either play Death+Taxes, 12post or UB Tez... just to take a breather.
Maybe I was a bit unclear. I don't think Scapewish or Thunian lists are bad and certainly they are not a fluke. They are just not my style, I like the value approach much more. But I think I was clear enough when I said that the whole Voice thing is still very experimental and that I am not sure if it is the right idea. I will stop talking about it for a bit to avoid confusion.
For what I would recommend running at a tournament if you haven't tested a list for yourself it would still be Ayotte's Punishing, Arian's Scapewish or qweerios'/my BUG.
I am not sure how good Thunian is and the Thunian lists don't seem "finished" yet either, and for Mono-Green's list, I think it is very good but it lacks the SB options that Punishing lists have. I think between Lingering Souls and Archangel of Thune we are currently just trying to figure out what works in White lists and what doesn't.
I wonder why you hate playing against Combo though. The difference in kill speed between just beating them down and finding the Thune-Feeder-Combo or getting to 7-8 lands is really not that big.
Don't get me wrong... I've been playing NicFit for god knows how long. The Valakut build is the one I feel most comfortable with and has provided me with the most and best results. Prehaps I let my current mindset influence the mood of my comments a bit too much.
In regards to my combo comment: I hate playing against combo anyway since thats just not my kind of tea... that doesnt mean I don't enjoy beating them. The problem with a beatdown list in my opinion is that we give them allot of time since we usually dont beat down fast enough. The discard helps a bit but that usually isnt enough to stop them if they have a clue. I know combo it one of NicFits worst matchups in any form.
I really want some sort of white list to do well. At one point I did try the Rector build but that didnt quite work for me (at least not nearly as well as the Valakut list)
I havent gotten around to testing your BUG list recently but that seems like allot of fun (especially the Therapy/Probe interaction)
And a little sidenote: I feel you deserve a big thumbs up for the work you're putting in the white lists at the moment. I'm not really the creator type so I can't really do something else than taking a list and modifying it a bit to suit my personal playstyle.
(note to self: be more positive and constructive in comments... or perhaps get to bed at a reasonable time a couple of nights in a row)
I've found that adding 4 Thoughtseize to the deck helped a lot with the combo matchups. I haven't seen many lists in this thread with that many Thoughtseizes, so pardon me if it seems obvious, but I don't plan on using fewer than four for some time and I suggest you all run it. It's very nice to go turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 explorer + therapy. This way, your therapy isn't blind on the first resolution like it usually is.
This is where I'm at for the moment:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower
//SB
1 Viscera Seer
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spike Feeder
1 Dust Bowl / Volrath's Stronghold / Gavony Township
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nevermore
1 Batterskull
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
I'm undecided between the lands in the sideboard at the moment -- I want a land (because sometimes you need to Wish for a land drop, and it's awkward, but necessary), but I also want a bomb for when you've used your Archangel and there's no reason to get Angel of Despair. Dust Bowl is more questionably a bomb than the other two, but it can double as an answer for problematic lands (as addressed numerous other times ITT [in the thread -- more Mafia lingo for you people]). Volrath and Gavony are both self-explanatory.
I wouldn't mind having more Mindbreak Traps, but I want at least a miser because you can then Diabolic Intent for it. Speaking of which, I'm actually contemplating a second Intent. This deck actually has the creature density to get away with it.
I'm certainly more of a value person as well. I like synergistic lists, but I wouldn't go as far as a full combo.
I've been thinking about the combo match-up; we're obviously not the only deck with a bad match-up, so what do the other decks use?
I've also been toying with putting in Living Wish. (Thanks JBone and Arianrhod.) It might be the answer I've been looking for. In my list I'd remove the Garruks. A hard choice as they've proven to be great additions, but the only spots I can afford to cut. In the Wish board I can put in the combo hate. Grabbing a Teeg or Thalia and immediately playing it costs the same as Baby Garruk, so it's not too expensive comparatively. I also open myself up to Karakas for Show and Tell, Bog for Dredge, and Pridemage or Ooze for various decks.
What I'm most excited about playing Wish for is putting Sun Titan in the board. Sun Titan recurring Deed is a soft lock against fair decks. This inclusion makes up for taking out Garruk. One of the things I disliked about Titan main was the only way to tutor for was Fierce Empath. It was practically impossible to tutor and play him on the same turn. With Wish it's still not overly probable, but eight mana isn't so unlikely.
Is this a pipe dream or can this work?
Not sure what the status of blue fit is, but Caleb Durand had this to say
Quote:
>Neat idea, but the problem with it is that Birthing Pod needs to come down as soon as possible to start generating value, which means it works better with mana dorks (which also sacrifice to pod). If I was to start brewing Pod in Legacy I'd start with 4x Veteran Explorer 4x Baleful Strix 4x Birthing Pod 1x Deceiver Exarch and 1x Phantasmal Image. The top of the curve would end at Grave Titan and/or Consecrated Sphinx.
- Birthing Pod has to overcome a couple of difficulties:
> it has to be better than just playing Jace.
> it has to make up for the bad cards that you start to play like Phantasmal Image or Deceiver Exarch
> the many 1-offs make the deck inconsistent, especially in combination with Green Sun's Zenith
> paying life hurts and then there is Stifle which is just awful because "here I pay 2 life and destroy my own creature so I can ... no?".
- I like Ayotte's approach of playing additional Discard to Therapy maindeck.
- For the Thunian Wishboard you should consider Sadistic Hypnotist. Sacrifice any dork and him and the opponent's hand is gone. Can definitely be useful sometimes.
- instead of "1 Fierce Empath, 1 Sun Titan, 1 Grave Titan" you could go "1 Primeval Titan" and add Volrath's Stronghold and Vault of the Archangel to the maindeck. This would save a good amount of slots and currently you have an overkill on win conditions. I don't think you need all six 5- and 6-drops, 3 Living Wish, Diabolic Intent, 4 GSZ and Fierce Empath to close out a game.
I've heard secondhand that this wording has been confirmed. We can definitely find a place for this hydra in Nic Fit.
Polukranos, World-Eater CMC=4
Legendary Creature - Hydra
X Monstrosity XGG. (If this creature isn’t monstrous, put X +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
When Polukranos, World Eater becomes monstrous, it deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures your opponents control. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to Polukranos.
5/5
We can? Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus
Because it's removal and a beat stick. Probably less relevant in PFire builds, but I could see it being good in some GBW brews and GBU. /shrug. Conceptually it fits pretty well - gives an outlet for having 6+ lands out, it's a threat, it's removal. It isn't a strict upgrade to anything in the deck; seems more like a lateral adjustment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Edit: nvm the Hydra, the activation cost is XXG and not XGG
Hey guys, first time poster long time lurker.
I recently decided to build Nic Fit (Punishing variant) and I have liked what I have read so far in this particular thread, so good work guys (specially to HoneyT, since I'm mostly copy-pasting your top 8 deck).
I have a few questions, most of are from a punishing list point of view:
- I know that Verdant Catacomb is the best fetch for this deck. But why is Wooded Foothills the default choice to compliment Verdant? Getting Green doesn't seem that important anymore as most list doesn't use Dryad (so you really only have 4 VE as your T1 play). However getting an early (basic) swamp to cast Decay, therapy, thoughtseize (which now seems to be played as a 2-of?) or even casting hymns and lilianas seems more relevant to me. Maybe a split?
- Is Carpet of Flowers really that helpful? I believe you bring it against control decks and normally those are long grindy games where both player exchange resources, so bringing a card that only ramps doesn't seem like the best idea. Isn't choke better?
- Extirpate vs Surgical: I believe Extirpate is better in a deck where you can afford the black mana, specially if you're not running casters. But I have seen more lists using Surgical. What does the more experienced players think?
- I used to be a Maverick player so I understand how valuable is having access to Eternal Witness. But is 2 really necesary? Can the second one be considered a flexible spot? Or is it two a most?
- I also have seen that Volrath's Stronghold has fallen out of flavor. Is it because of the land restriction imposed by Grove of the burnwillows/Phyrexian tower/Kessig Wolf Run or the card is not doing enough to pull its weight?
- Planeswalkers; Are they a must in? Is it metagame dependant? Both seem to be good against control, Liliana is really good against combo and aggro decks should be a favorable match-up for Nic-Fit. So that means Liliana gets the thumbs up? I love me some Garruk, and I would love to hear any excuse to use him, but is he worth the slot?
- Broodmate Dragon doesn't seem to be used too much anymore. Is she an auto-inclue? Meta-game dependant? Primeval titan is just straight out better in every possible scenario?
Have been trying to look for answers myself but this thread is really huge, so sorry if it's been discussed before. However I think we can all take advantage from the discussion.
Regarding the Hydra. I wouldn't even touch it with a stick. This deck already have access to removal, so that part is not really that appealing. Also, bear in mind that it's double X. So if you want to kill a delver you have to pay 5. Since he is in the 4-spot he has to be better than the available options. Huntmaster is better against aggro; gains you life, gives two blockers, and if he survives one turn (same as Hydra, since you will have to wait a turn 95% of the time) he can act as removal as well. And thrun is a nightmare for control decks.
- about the new Hydra: You are right. guelahpapyrus had it as GGX here instead of GXX and I didn't double check on Mtgsalvation. That way it is not good of course. Though if it was like he said it would have been an auto-include.
- The land change sounds reasonable, especially if you run a couple Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. I actually PM'ed Ayotte earlier today about the low amount of early black mana.
- Against UWx Control decks you exchange 3 Explorers with 3 Carpets. That way you stop ramping them without screwing with your mana. Carpet is also absurdly good against blue Aggro decks that use Wasteland/Stifle (RUG, TA) and Merfolk.
- the more experienced players are in disagreement with each other about Extirpate and Surgical. Surgical is better against Combo and Dredge because of the speed while Extirpate is better against Countermagic, Brainstorm and Snapcaster (and a few other Instant recycling effects). Play what you prefer or split.
- You can go down to 1 Witness. The List in the OP currently also has only 1, too. If you want to play with Stronghold you should consider a second Witness.
- Supporting 4 Groves, Tower, Wolf Run and Stronghold is hard, even with 23 lands. I personally like Stronghold and have not been impressed by Wolf Run but I asked multiple times and everyone who took the deck to tournaments recently said that Wolf Run was amazing for them.
- PWs and Broodmate Dragon are no must. Just make sure to have a decent curve, a late game plan and that your cards work together. My current personal setup is 3 Liliana main, 2 Garruk in the side and no Broodmate. I find it very difficult to tell what setup is right or wrong.
Pretty much what Tao said except a few things:
Carpet is not the only tech you can use as additional or replacement ramp for Explorer, Deathrite Shaman is as good if not better. Against tempo with fliers and control with lots of basics, Deathrite has more value over the course of the game than Carpet. Let's not forget that it is also infinitely more versatile as a whole. I don't like carpet because it makes you assume a role that you don't necessarily have to in order to win, and its application is very narrow. I say that after having retested the card following my argument with Tao.
Surgical is strictly superior to Extirpate in most cases. It's all about mana cost and versatility. Split second is nice but isn't what you play the card for. Extraction hate cards are good SB cards because they double up in purpose with discard spells in specific matchups. Being able to Thoughtseize/Therapy and Surgical on the same turn or simply being able to Surgical at any time without having to leave a black mana open is extremely important when you are pressed for time and can only get so much disruption in before your opponent blows you out. Extirpate is only really good when it is the only piece of disruption that you need to foil your opponent's plans, and when the Split Second clause is essential. Also, the cards that are best dealt with by Extirpate tend to be cards that you can safely ignore like PFire and LftL for instance.
Liliana is probably the best Planeswalker for Nic Fit to date. However, getting some counters on her can be detrimental without some form of recursive card advantage (PFire and LftL again).