If you anticipate a lot of grindy stuff in your meta, I'd def try to make room for the 3rd Liliana. She has so much value versus attrition decks, I can't imagine a life without her reliably coming down turn 2/3.
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If you anticipate a lot of grindy stuff in your meta, I'd def try to make room for the 3rd Liliana. She has so much value versus attrition decks, I can't imagine a life without her reliably coming down turn 2/3.
Mr. Safety,
I'm actually in the Daily right now with a similar list to the one on the list from the 3-25-13 tab (link in signature). I'll update the list a little later but I'm 2-0 right now. It might be helpful for an idea. I don't have Sculler though.
There, fix'd. Lol, just razzin'...Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
I like the list, and the 3rd Liliana in the sideboard is an option I had never thought to include. I could definately see getting a 3rd in against a lot of decks, probably dropping a Knight for it just to keep the curve the same.
Debating this sideboard:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Choke
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Vindicate
1x Zealous Persecution (or Golgari Charm)
Canonist/Teeg for storm, Deed/Charm/Zealous for tribals/maverick/affinity, Choke for blue, ORings for Show and Tell/PW's/flexible removal, Vindicate for PW's/additional ench/art removal, Liliana to increase disruption against decks that can outclass me with card advantage. If I don't use Liliana, that slot will likely go to Pithing Needle.
Honestly, she may just take the 3rd Knight's place in the main deck. Knight is definately good, but also definately the weakest threat in the deck currently. He's basically there to create waste-locks or to beat big as additional dumb beats.
Wish I could somehow weasel a 3rd Lingering Souls into the maindeck...then I saw her face, now I'm a believer.
EDIT
I have to admit this, though it is shameful: I shelved Junk to play Hypergenesis this weekend at my monthly local event. I swept the event going 4-0 (8-2 for games) but I felt a little guilty for leaving it home. Needed to try it out...next month, back to kicking ass with good 'ol Tarmogoyf beats.
I laughed a little too hard for that.
I've been looking at space to add the 3rd Lili and going to 1 GSZ is my current thought.
I may be completely wrong here, but i think cutting a kotr (from 3 to 2) would be better than to go down to 1 gsz. gsz is effectively another knight or any green creature for that matter, so wouldn't it be better if one of those were cut first?Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
Just my 2 cents!
You may be right but, I only have 7 green creatures spread across 4 names (3 Knight, 2 DRS, 1 Goyf, and 1 Arbor).
3 to 2... it's natural for us to say that a gsz means an extra copy of wte green creature but with a few more grindy decks in the meta now that reference isnt true, removal literally cuts a copy. Against control that reference is true though. I feel like we are undermining knight. I play 3 and feel like thats te right number at the moment.
Ian, i did end up cutting something to run a 3rd lily bc i feel like 2 copies of her isn't enough. Im not a big fan of tidehollow, maybe because of my play style lol. Even if i use the excuse of saying that they waste a removal on it i just feel like its not good enough for me. I hate it when the deck runs short of power or answers. Although I did see you run two copies of pulse, mannnn i debate that card soo much lol i want it in the main then.. i dont... but my final conclusion said, hey lingering souls will fight planeswalkers lol.
Any thoughts about Celestial Purge as a sideboard card against Jund and Sneak?
-Matt
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Matt, I actually think that's very a bright idea, but shouldn't we be as flexible as possible? Besides I haven't tested it but sounds like a very reasonable card.
I'm thinking about it more so with this sideboard:Quote:
Originally Posted by Petree
2 Deed
2 Teeg
3 Thalia
2 Sorin, LOI
3/2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1/2 Open
I feel like with this board, we have a good handle on Esper (Thalia, Sorgin, Golgari), Storm Combo (Teeg, Thalia, + our discard), Maverick (Deed, Golgari, Sorin), Helm (Deed, Teeg, Thalia, Sorin, Charm), Tribal (Deed, Charm, removal), High Tide (Teeg, Thalia, Discard), Tempo (Deed, our deck in general), Dredge (Deed, Teeg, Surgical).
For Jund we have Deed and Sorin. People complained about being out-removaled by them, so running 1-2 Purge seems okay. This isn't the best card necessarily to do this, but I'm weighing it against Sneak. Purge hits Liliana, BBE, Confidant, DRS, Chains (if they bring it in and we have Library online), while Decay and Swords can clean up Goyf and Library. It's also easily castable.
For Sneak we have discard, Thalia, Teeg, Surgical, Charm. Fair that these are all fine cards. But, have another removal for Sneak and Griselbrand can't be bad, either.
Also has bonus play against Blood Moon, Goblins, etc.
-Matt
Pernicious Deed seems SO good right now, I don't know why it's not being played more it seems like noone's running it!
I got nothing as I haven't tested it and it's an odd thing to place into theory. It is nice that it answers both DRS and Lili are among my main concerns, but those are matches that I'm not thrilled about already.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Long time Deadguy Ale player, just started brewing and playing Junk at local events this year.
I won't go on and on in great detail over every single choice, so let's get to the big things...
- 0 Knight of the Reliquary. This is probably wrongish... My main reasoning for not playing KotR is that my meta is infested with Jund and BUG Delver, so I see a lot of opposing Deathrite Shamans. I also think that people are adjusting their SBs to Tin-Fins and even traditional reanimator by playing more GY hate, especially Rest in Peace. I also think that if the opponent has RiP they will board it in against me knowing I have Deathrite, Lingering Souls and Tarmogoyf. So it would also make Knight way worse too.
- SFM over GSZ. I didn't really want to try both because my list felt super tight as is, there was other stuff I wanted to play that isn't included. I decided on SFM because I feel like it just gives the deck more of a clock and you still have the ability to tutor up stuff. I also think SFM is better against creature decks and especially aggro and tribal. GSZ is cool but it feels sort of clunky sometimes and it is hard to push through spell pierce/daze.
- 0 Mox Diamond. This has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread so I'll keep it short. I don't like dumping my hand or going all in, essentially, on a turn 1 bob/sfm/hymn. If they remove/counter your threat and hymn/thoughtseize you back you basically lose.
Here is the list I'm working with at the moment:
x4 Deathrite Shaman
x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Dark Confidant
x3 Stoneforge Mystic
x4 Swords to Plowshares
x4 Hymn to Tourach
x3 Abrupt Decay
x3 Liliana of the Veil
x2 Cabal Therapy
x2 Lingering Souls
x2 Sensei's Divining Top
x1 Sylvan Library
x1 Vindicate
x1 Umezawa's Jitte
x1 Batterskull
x1 Karakas
x2 Bayou
x2 Scrubland
x1 Savannah
x1 Swamp
x1 Plains
x1 Forest
x4 Verdant Catacombs
x4 Marsh Flats
x4 Wasteland
sb
x1 Life from the Loam
x1 Chains of Mephistopheles
x2 Choke
x2 Duress
x3 Engineered Plague
x3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
x3 Oblivion Ring
I kind of want to play a second Vindicate, or maybe x1 Vindicate / x1 Maelstrom Pulse. Also testing out the no IoK/TS thing and hoping Therapy/Hymn is enough to fight combo g1. Does anyone here have experience running Therapy/Hymn with no IoK/TS?
Thanks for looking!
So I went to a 30man Tourney yesterday, placing 8th with 3-2
played this List
MAINBOARD
3x Scrubland
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
4x Wasteland
3x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library
2x Vindicate
SIDEBOARD
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Pithing Needle
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Gravediggers Cage
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Stony Silence
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Plague
Games were
1. vs. Arno with Aluren
1.1 He starts Forest -> Explorer, and I think I am against NicFit. TS showed me 2x Harpye, 1x Strix, 1x Force, 1 Aluren and no lands. I pick Aluren and play it slow the next turns, letting Explorer pick at me and proceeding to discard him and build Boardpresence until I find a Sword. Then I hammer him in 2 Turns
1.2. Dead on Board he topdecks B.Wish into Aluren into 3x Harpye and Shardless -.-
1.3. I discard Tutors and Aluren, threatening him with Goyfs.
1-0
2. vs Philipp with TES
2.1. I win dice and play T1 TS into Probe, B.Wish, Therapy, B.Mire, Petal, Ritual, LED picking LED. He goes for 10 Goblins in his Turn, which is enough
2.2. I play T2 Thorn into T3 Bob into T4 Stony and that is enough
2.3. He kills me T1 on the play with Grapeshot for 21 -.-
1-1
3. vs Michael with MUD
3.1 I play T1 DRS, he T1 Trinisphere. I than vindicate his Land, hoping to srew him, but he plays another one and Metalworker. Big fail on my side here. After that big dudes beat me to death
3.2 He mulls and I start with DRS into Goyf and Knight. He never gets into the game
3.3 T1 DRS into T2 Stony. Only play by him was a lone Lodestonegolem. Goyf kills him
2-1
4. vs Lars with Death and Taxes
4.1 T1 TS picking Mom, T2 Hymn getting his 2 Mirran Crusader... After that its easy
4.2 He plays Vial, I needle it. He plays Thalia, I sword it. He plays Mom, i tutor for second needle. After that I thought it would be easy until he played RiP. Before i found Abrupt/Vindicate the first time, there were 3 of them. Between that it was brutal attrition with SFM, Equips, 0/1 Goyfs and Liliana, handling everything alone. Shaman-Beatdown ended it short before Turns began.
3-1
5. vs Felix with Scapeshift NicFit
5.1 I hit 2 Lands with my Hymn T2, leaving him with Valakut and Swamp. I vindicated Swamp and seal the deal with Goyf
5.2 Superlong Game, at one Point he is on ten, I have Liliana, Knight and Goyf. He Scapeshifts for 18 to clear the Board and afterwards plays Thragtusk into Thragtusk into Huntmaster. Both Thragtusk and Token I destroyed but Huntmaster was to much
5.3 I am greedy holding a hand of six (Land, DRS, Bob, Bob, 2x something). No Bob lived enough to draw and he did no Explorer-Action. Scapeshift for 18 in my Face...
But overall the Deck was really good, only thing bothering me is Rest in Peace. It shuts 75% of my creatures down, leaving me with 0/1 Goyfs and 2/2 Knight. I am thinking about a threat now, not so yard-dependent, but at the moment I have no clue.
Sideboard did really well too, but I really did not know, what to board against Scapeshift with my board. Card that came to mind were extractions, but I had none...
The 'yard problem is one not unknown to Junk. I am playing 3 Tarmogoyfs and 3 Knight of the Reliquary in the deck and 3 Lingering Souls on top of that. Together with the 4 Deathrite Shamans, that are 13 cards that do not like to see Rest in Peace at all. That is why I also play 3 Stoneforge Mystic with a Umezawa's Jitte and a Batterskull, so that I always have an out (other than Abrupt Decay and reloading the graveyard...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
Another, non-graveyard-based threat would be really nice, though. If I were playing Green Sun's Zenith I would probably add a Thrun, the last Troll to the board to bring in against blue and white decks but with my current version without GSZ, I'm not sure what do play.
I don't think you need hymn to tourach. Hymn is more like a tempo-oriented card for explosive plays like the ones you don't like. In such a build as yours targetted discard is better. I would advise adding more lingering souls and cabal therapy to suplement your 1 cmc discard spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_L
As Obscurus said, Stoneforge Mystic is a great threat available to Junk that (a.) doesn't care about your opponent's graveyard hate, (b.) doesn't care about Perish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
I think Purge seems pretty good against Jund and it's a nice answer to GB. Fairly flexible, but is it better than O-Ring? It'll probably start to get a little more valuable again since Goblins and Jund both did well at the SCG this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I agree, Deed is SUPER good right now. Why more people aren't playing it I'll never know. That's why I'm on the fence with BUG Landstill for SCG Seattle.
Thrun would also be a nice addition, but I has no room anywhere :P I think my only option would be to cut a Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize for a Thrun/Sigarda/Smiter.
-Matt
If you can pony up for her, Sigarda would get the nod IMO. She kolds Jund, and she's a colossal bitch for pretty much any control deck to effectively remove, since she demands a sweeper at often 1-for-1. Then you just vomit out the rest of your hand and they're up shit creek.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think that if I were going to play Rock in a big event like an SCG right now, I'd aim for something like the following (assuming a 2-3 GSZ, 0 SFM build. still torn on Souls, but am a fan of Liliana):
2 Sorin
1 Sigarda
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction/Extirpate
Thought process:
#TeamSorin + Sigarda solve the "over the top" matches. Jund, Miracles, Esperblade, Nic Fit (if anyone even plays that deck on the west coast), mirror matches, and so forth. Those three give you a legit endgame while also helping to fight some specific problems like Moat and Humility. And, you know, Jund as a deck.
Golgari Charms are staples...nothing really to say about them. So good against so many things.
Teegs and a Safekeeper. Safekeeper is good vs control (see especially Esperblade) as well, but serves to protect Teeg and Revoker. If you don't run (many) Green Suns, you probably don't want Safekeeper...but protecting key creatures, especially with Deathrite Shaman to counteract the sacrificing of lands, seems very important. Can also solve Abrupt Decay out of Jund, which is their only real way of dealing with KotR. Two Teeg is fairly standard, I think. He stops Sneak, he stops Storm wincons, Time Spiral, miracles, Verdict, and so on.
Revokers. Disruption with legs which can be protected by Safekeeper. One of the best answers to Sneak/Show, also can hit LED, TinFins, and opposing Deeds (Nic Fit and BUGStill are both better Deed decks than Rock).
Deeds. As mentioned, crazy good right now. Rock is a worse Deed deck than some others, but is still plenty capable of packing it.
Surgicals/Extirpates. Combined with discard, can ruin Sneak's day (and other combo). Can also be combined with Wasteland to mana screw opponents, specifically 12post. Can also break up Loam/Waste, since that seems to be making something of a comeback. I personally prefer Extirpate here just because it can't be dicked with (Shallow Grave in response to Surgical HURRRRRR....or the more common Force your Surgical on my Show and Tell because I want to be able to still win the game). But I can certainly understand why one would prefer Surgical.