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I had the satisfaction of winning last night with only 30 seconds on the clock...using GARRUK'S ULTIMATE. Opponent had a Mirran Crusader and killed my Stoneforge Mystic the turn prior, which allowed me to do +3/+3 and trample for the team (Rhino, Sigarda, 3 deathtouch beasties), was glorious. Wish I'd taken a screenshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Hi.
Last days I have problems with my punishing-fit
1. I'm out of gas having a load of lands
2. I can't play together Lilly+Groove or Groove+Pfire nor any of this combinations
3. Got mana screwed :eek:
4. No creature on board...
I'm comceding playing truths or scryings or maybe split? 1/1? 2/1?
Any tips?
Well, maybe a list would be helpful here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruby
1. Being mana flooded happens, typically lists run 22 lands in the configuration below. Keeping uncracked fetches to improve later SDT spins helps to. I also find that Courser of Kruphix is a solid choice to unfuck bad top's and find pieces faster or to the least gains some life. The biggest issue i have with Jund NicFit is the lack of it's high CMC beef. Stormbreath Dragon is closest with that, but other then Thragtusk and Huntmaster of the Fells, not really. But if you want a manasink, ThrunRun...
2. No, sequencing your lands properly is a thing. We can get away with a lot of crap, as long as wel got to crack Dora and make our first 1 or 2 land drops the exact right ones. This totally depends on the opening hand (correct mulligans), what we are up against (mainly if we expect Wasteland or not) and what do we want to sequence into. Sequencing often is opening with either G or B, then either another B or a R depending on Pfire vs Liliana. I often hold Grove in my hand until i have PFire ready.
3. That also happens, quite a lot actually, taking mulligan's and sequencing is key. But as mentioned, in a deck running both Liliana and the full 4 Grove package is asking for it sometimes. A lot of solid hands rely on the proper choice of what to fetch. In my experience, if you can hold green mana you can get away with it. No access to green is often killing. Other devastating things are, not finding Grove or PFire, being forced to fetch duals into Wasteland and not playing into countermagic/Daze/Pierce while low on mana/land count.
4. The deck is all about board control, i learned to play more conservative on the creatures on my opening hand and taking care to what to actually fetch with GSZ and not waste it to much.
5. Since PFire builds are so tight already i have trouble getting in some PTruths. Because the games tend to be long the overall effect of drawing 3 is stretched out. Meaning that quality of quantity matters here.
All in all it depends on soo many factors. This deck is always a mega MEGA grind throughout a tournament. Gaining full board control requires time and patience. On key line is: just enough, just in time.
So for a manabase:
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 flex (Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run or Mountain).
That sounds like a beautiful screen. Very nice job, sir. Which garruk?Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
I suggest trying pruths, its very strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruby
1. Pruths could help here. Also Thrun/KWR
2. Oath of Nissa might be adorable enough? otherwise consult Echelon on your manabase. Hes kind of a manabase wizard.
3. Do you run Sakura tribe elder? Deathrite shaman? They help quite a bit otherwise, see 2 :)
4. Junds major weakness is the creature base. Thrun, broodmate, prime time, 3 huntmaster, thragtusk, 4 gsz was my threat density back in the day.
Otherwise, maybe 2-3 tops is amazing. Keep working on Jund, its very strong.
EDIT: Bobman is also great at nic fit stuff!
Play Tireless Tracker in Jund Fit. He's easy to cast 2G, and demands any answer, otherwise the card advantage and beating is off the hook
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
@square_two, were you the one who said they had an odd stompy list? Can you post it or PM it to me if you prefer, I'm very curious :)
@Plm, I agree, there were some really odd posts a few pages back about SFM, I think some were from @echelon?
@The theorists, I think now after our theoretical experiment what needs to be done now is less theory crafting and more play testing. Theory can only get you so far unfortunately. And I mean real testing, not "I played 4 games last night with blah blah and this happened" :P as Ricardio said, I've but the time into SFM and have the numbers to back up my points. That said I'm going to be trying 4 tops and STE as a result of our discussions. We just need to go away and play a lot of games, and take some brief notes so you at least remember your matches and wins/losses
@Arianrhod, wow that sneak attack idea is pretty great/new! I've tried a few NO lists in my time but neve thought to include sneak attack.. With Meren to, that's some sexy damn hot sauce.
Just info from one deck (got in a few side games at FNM tonight) but Dark Confidant absolutely carried me in some games tonight against Infect. I lost on average about 1 life/turn which wasn't a big deal since I gained much more than that and was able to just bury them in card advantage. Nearly 1/2 of my deck (29/61) is capable of generating CA or at least library manipulation right now, and much of it does so while putting some power onto the field. It's like playing blue, but better though most of my cards generate on average less than 1 card in extra value per turn.
Finally figured out the sequencing when Courser/Bob are both down with a Top too. I still maintain the two are largely competing with each other, but that extra point of life goes a long ways in pressing the advantage. The correct play seems to be taking a hit off Bob for the lowest CMC between the 3 on top (excluding the first land), then drawing for the turn, then playing a land from the top of the library, and then toping for a fresh 3.
All in all, I'm really liking this strategy of mixing low numbers of lots of different CA engines and then having them all combine into a whole that's greater than the sum of their parts.
I've thought about Angels many times. The conclusion I constantly come to is that there's only so many 4 drop slots, 4 seems to be the max. If I want to play an Angel as a pseudo Rhino, why not just play another Rhino instead? I haven't yet figured out a reason I would want an Angel after 4 Rhinos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I would love to put in more testing, but outside of a structured environment everything comes down to "I played X games, and this happened". The only variable is the X with the size of the tournament. Sadly, our local Legacy night is the same night I have a night class, so until the semester is over the number of games I get is greatly reduced (good news, it's over next week... bad news, I'm traveling for a month after that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
That said, I've always been of the opinion that if something works, it's readily apparent after it happens once or twice. If something doesn't work it tends to be a bit more questionable.
Manabases means numbers matter. I like numbers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Seconded! The only problem for me is that I get to play physical Magic once a month, if I'm lucky. The next event I might manage to attend is in the first week of june. Whenever I manage to meet up with my buddy (which will be before that) I like to play with my other toys too and the only comparison I get is vs. Grixis Delver (on Stifles, so if my manabase is stable through that it'll work anywhere), a silly D&T build and a Modern Blood Moon deck. And on those days I also want to play my other crazy shit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Ah, the paradox of Legacy. It isn't until you're an adult that you have the means to afford Legacy but when you are an adult you also hardly have the time to play it. Or at least that's the case for me.
In order to broaden my playing opportunity, I've thought about buying into the deck on MTGO especially with League play now being a thing. I threw my list on tappedout earlier and they were pricing the deck at only 240 tix which seems mostly reasonable, especially in comparison to the paper cost. Alternatively I can continue with my long term plan of slowly building a better pool of Legacy staples. My next step would be Badlands and Groves to open up the Jund builds.
Not sure I want to play the deck online though considering how popular Eldrazi and Miracles are. Not because the matchups are bad, but rather just because I don't like playing against them.
I think we should create a list containing the names and IGNs of all the people who post in here and are active on modo. That would make it easier to discuss topics such as meta calls/sb decisions and would provide valuable players to play test against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The mana base is wrong. It should be 3 Swamp, 2 Forest because of the 4 Groves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
And also because of Liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Not having 2 swamp left to fetch for on a veteran trigger and cast Liliana in the same turn can cost you a game.
Even playing on cockatrice/x-mage is valid data.
I just mean to say that talking only gets us so far, and if you want to champion or challenge an idea you need something to back it up with. I don't mind how long it takes you to get those results :P
And I speak of large shifts in the core of the deck (like playing much more than 6 ramp cards) or moving away from 4 rhinos, or towards SFM etc. obviously it can be quite apparent quite quickly when a single card or synergy isn't working or when something is. But it might take more to convince others.
That's why I record data for my deck and post them here every 25-50 games or so.
And my modo handle is, Jain_Mor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Doesnt matter if it is 1 card, everything is wrong about it. Now please arrest me.
@ my second point thoughts was about that I can't get the "punishing combo" online. It's always missing one part from lilly+pfire+groove :cry: that makes me mad
And here's the list:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Deathrite shaman
1 Primeval Titan
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
I see that primetime is more like an overkill than regular fatty. His ability is almost useless (imo) anbd considering changing 1titan and 1 witness for 2 stormbreath dragon.
Primeval isn't garbage, I just feel like I want a threat that lives through STP in the this deck. For my personal flavour, I'd cut a Fires for an Intent (allows you to tutor for combo), and I'd try to jam Truths in. My two pennies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruby
@ gruby : the strength of titan lies in fetching kessig, if not answered it's a 2 turn clock, if they have the answer for titan, your explorers are 3 turn clock at least (or combine kessig with thrun for absolute fun). If you remove titan , remove kessig as well.
Stormbreath is nice but since it is non green you should play multiple in order to see it.
Mana:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruby
You really don't need that 3rd Forest. Other Nic Fit versions play 3, but in comparison you already have 4 additional permanent Green sources in Groves. So I am very sure that
- 1 Forest
+ 1 Bayou
is just a clear improvement. Also 3 colorless lands are too much. Make your decison on (Edit) Stronghold vs. Wolf Run. I say play (Edit) Stronghold as long as you have two Witnesses and Tusk, others might argue for keeping Wolf Run. So
- 1 (Edit) Stronghold / Wolf Run
+ 1 Bloodstained Mire.
This will make it much easier to cast Liliana and it will avoid mana problems in general.
Threats:
- I would not replace Titan without a good huge replacement. GSZ gets really much worse if you manage to ramp to 8 Mana, draw your X-Spell and... get a Huntmaster. I still think Primeval is good, he will set up a much stronger Fire engine for the rest of the game or your Two Towers. I think Dragonlord Atarka is playable, maybe he is an alternative if you really hate Titan.
- a 3rd Liliana sounds good, if you fix your Mana
- Stormbreath Dragon is not a good card in general, but on the other hand he is clearly very good in this meta.
- Vraska seems bad, especially once you played new Sorin
Punishing Fire Nic Fit in general:
- seems to be not in the best place in general, it lacks power and looks underwhelming. The entire thing might need a revamp.
On the subject of testing, something I've been trying to do lately is track how many cards I see per game vs how many my opponent sees. It's tough to track because it's a lot of extra information to keep track of (SDT is 3 if it's fresh, but only 1 if it's not for example) but I'm slowly gathering data. Also tracking total cards drawn per game. So far the results are pretty positive and my build is keeping up with and even surpassing blue decks. Of course, because we need/want to make more land drops we automatically start at a deficit of -2 cards/game or so that we need to see above them just to break even.
Tried something like this a few posts back but it's still untested. Continuing my current focus of card advantage and overwhelming the opponents removal opposed to dodging it which is working very well. I think there's a valid shell for Jund under such circumstances, most notably it looks like it can improve the combo and Miracles matchups at the cost of being worse against Eldrazi and probably other midrange decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
That's an interesting thing to keep track of. SE Fit (not trying to beat a dead horse here, so bear with me) should average the highest number of cards seen per game (due to 4 Tops and the huge library manipulation/CA suite in general), especially if we manage to stick a KotR in there (Top, tap Knight and get a fetchland, Top, crack fetch, Top, maybe find GSZ).