Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
draft of that idea:
American Taxes
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Plateau
2 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard:
1 Trinket Mage
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Adding blue feels real good when there's access to cards like Izzet Staticaster and Meddling Mage
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Recruiter into Mage into answer is reallll slow but it does pretty much allow the deck to have a response to any situation. Even TNN and Mentor w/ explosives.
Giving up Sudden Demise but there are 12 cards to board in vs Elves. (everything but RIPs, Relic-Warder).
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
This isn't exactly anything about the deck, it's just that if this deck goes Jeskai, you have to call it Boston Tea Party. You just...have to.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
This isn't exactly anything about the deck, it's just that if this deck goes Jeskai, you have to call it Boston Tea Party. You just...have to.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
:laugh: American Death & Taxes = Boston Tea Party :laugh: - hilarious
Too bad the Eternal Weekend Benjamin Franklin is a Spirit and not a Germ or Cat Soldier
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hp...54829324_n.jpg
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SoldierToken
@Barook
I might be going off the deep end here but have you considered a Naya build?
I assume the mana is way too hard with 4x port and 4x wasteland which are the heart of any D&T build.
I think it puts up too much strain on the manabase if you want to everything at the same time. If Noble Hierarch could tap for red, sure, but as it stands, no. (Besides, Noble also fills a beater/pump role, so stuff like BoP instead is a no-go).
I'm brainstorming if it's possible to build a G/W sideboard to covers the various weaknesses of the deck (e.g. Elves, PF decks, removal-heavy decks in general, etc.) enough. Not sure if I could find a solution to everything, as especially the mass removal is rather lacking (maybe Cataclysm? But that does jackshit to Elves :eyebrow:)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
So, let me start off by saying that I am NOT a D & T player. I play R/W painter and am looking for information on you're SB strategies against combo decks. I know revokers and Thalias go a long way but just was wondering what other tech you guys use. I'm considering playing more of a transition SB with revokers, thalias, containment priests and other beaters. How do you guys feel your MU is against STORM? Revokers on LED and Thalias work. Anything else you play? How about the sneak and show MU? I see a lot of people playing Omniscence and/or eurekas these days as well. Are you just trying to keep mana controlled with wasteland/port and play Thalia? Thanks for any help.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quick update on the "Noble Taxes" list posted on the last page for those not reading the Salvation thread:
I'm excited - so far, Noble Hierarch has been nothing short of amazing which makes we wonder how we could even do without it before. I strongly believe now that running Hierarch is superior to running MonoW since it speeds up everything we do by alot (deploying our strategy including mana denial & increasing our average damage output per turn) while losing very little. The mana is alot smoother now thanks to a lower curve and running 18 white sources total instead of the traditional 15 (remember that we normally don't run enough white sources as we should and only get away with it thanks to Vial). Basically, mana density is increased while treat density is the same (if not higher since Exalted can even turn stuff like Revoker into war machines).
One major thing I noticed is how we often choken on mana on T3 when we want to do multiple things (e.g. SFM activation + Port activation) - which Noble solves (either dropped on T1 or with Vial on T2). Exalted also fits our strategy perfectly, considering the amount of flyers and first/double strikers we run.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drude1
So, let me start off by saying that I am NOT a D & T player. I play R/W painter and am looking for information on you're SB strategies against combo decks. I know revokers and Thalias go a long way but just was wondering what other tech you guys use. I'm considering playing more of a transition SB with revokers, thalias, containment priests and other beaters. How do you guys feel your MU is against STORM? Revokers on LED and Thalias work. Anything else you play? How about the sneak and show MU? I see a lot of people playing Omniscence and/or eurekas these days as well. Are you just trying to keep mana controlled with wasteland/port and play Thalia? Thanks for any help.
As w/ most non-blue decks, turn one / turn two combo gives D+T no time for interaction so it's usually game over - but deck has a quite strong game vs combo (other than elves) once you've made it past the very first turns. D+T is a little bit favored vs ANT and unfavored vs TES, very favored vs Sneak and Show and was unfavored vs Omni w/ DTT but slightly favored now. They still have pretty clean mana and an early show and tell'd omniscience is usally game - but now they have to get luckier w/ their draws and cantripping.
In general, combo decks generally have pretty tight mana and once you have multiple sources of disruption (thalia, port, revokers, magus in the red splash) it can be hard for them to do anything meaningful. Karakas wins games out of nowhere vs. cheat Griselbrand/Emrakul into play decks, and we get to play one of the strongest sb cards ever printed (Rest in Peace) for graveyard combo.
I think the problem with going too far in the creature direction w/ Painter is that most of the time your creatures still won't constitute a significant clock and damage contributes nothing towards your combo win. Like sure, it's nice to have the option, and it's also nice to have them as potential recruiter targets, but Thalia and Ethersworn are easier to kill than Thorn and decks will be bringing in more creature removal vs you. Regardless, a one of Containment Priest could work out pretty well, as that card doesn't have a great non-creature replacement and it has use outside of pure combo matchups. If you're not playing ratchet bomb that's a card that also has a lot of general purpose use and can be good vs goblin tokens, lotus petals, LEDs.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Quick update on the "Noble Taxes" list posted on the last page for those not reading the Salvation thread:
I'm excited - so far, Noble Hierarch has been nothing short of amazing which makes we wonder how we could even do without it before. I strongly believe now that running Hierarch is superior to running MonoW since it speeds up everything we do by alot (deploying our strategy including mana denial & increasing our average damage output per turn) while losing very little. The mana is alot smoother now thanks to a lower curve and running 18 white sources total instead of the traditional 15 (remember that we normally don't run enough white sources as we should and only get away with it thanks to Vial). Basically, mana density is increased while treat density is the same (if not higher since Exalted can even turn stuff like Revoker into war machines).
One major thing I noticed is how we often choken on mana on T3 when we want to do multiple things (e.g. SFM activation + Port activation) - which Noble solves (either dropped on T1 or with Vial on T2). Exalted also fits our strategy perfectly, considering the amount of flyers and first/double strikers we run.
Sounds very promising, I'll have to get some testing in. Exalted triggers should help close the game out a lot quicker, and I like the idea of bringing the curve down a little. Being able to deny mana and still cast our spells sounds like a wonderful improvement.
Can you post a link to the Salvation thread you mentioned?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
As w/ most non-blue decks, turn one / turn two combo gives D+T no time for interaction so it's usually game over - but deck has a quite strong game vs combo (other than elves) once you've made it past the very first turns. D+T is a little bit favored vs ANT and unfavored vs TES, very favored vs Sneak and Show and was unfavored vs Omni w/ DTT but slightly favored now. They still have pretty clean mana and an early show and tell'd omniscience is usally game - but now they have to get luckier w/ their draws and cantripping.
In general, combo decks generally have pretty tight mana and once you have multiple sources of disruption (thalia, port, revokers, magus in the red splash) it can be hard for them to do anything meaningful. Karakas wins games out of nowhere vs. cheat Griselbrand/Emrakul into play decks, and we get to play one of the strongest sb cards ever printed (Rest in Peace) for graveyard combo.
I think the problem with going too far in the creature direction w/ Painter is that most of the time your creatures still won't constitute a significant clock and damage contributes nothing towards your combo win. Like sure, it's nice to have the option, and it's also nice to have them as potential recruiter targets, but Thalia and Ethersworn are easier to kill than Thorn and decks will be bringing in more creature removal vs you. Regardless, a one of Containment Priest could work out pretty well, as that card doesn't have a great non-creature replacement and it has use outside of pure combo matchups. If you're not playing ratchet bomb that's a card that also has a lot of general purpose use and can be good vs goblin tokens, lotus petals, LEDs.
It's worth mentioning that Ethersworn Canonist is very good against combo as well, but D&T is able to protect it with Mother of Runes and Sword of Fire and Ice. The card can be quite fragile unprotected. D&T often brings Canonists in alongside main-deck Thalias. This means D&T can usually stick one taxing creature for a long enough time to make an impact or draw another taxing creature. I'm not sure this is a viable option with other decks as I've not tried it. Personally I'm considering 4 Canonists in my SB as Elves and Storm expected to show up in larger quantities post Dig's banning. During Omnitell's run I had 2 in my main.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I had one in the main for a while. It was always okay as a one of in the main - randomly has relevance in matchups where you don't expect it to have any, and the RW build can tutor for it even g1. I love that it's a human for cavern too - makes absolutely no sense, but it's very relevant. But you do run the risk of playing basically a vanilla 2/2 against some decks.
I've gone 10-1 at the last 3 local events w/ the RW 3-cavern build. Beat - Storm, Merfolk, Miracles, Lands, 12-Post, Infect, RUG Delver x 2, Maverick and a Grixis surgical extraction brew. Lost to RUG Delver once. I've been testing a lot of wild sb cards - I tried an American build last night and won a game off Izzet Staticaster - but in general they've barely mattered because the main feels so tight.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm not surprised in the least that Hierarch has you excited, Barook. I did 3-color (w/blue) a while back. The strong early plays and acceleration were intoxicating to the plodding pace at which D+T typically takes. I eventually missed my extra Karakas and Ports too much, but the card pool is different these days. I hope you find a way to make it work.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SoldierToken
Sounds very promising, I'll have to get some testing in. Exalted triggers should help close the game out a lot quicker, and I like the idea of bringing the curve down a little. Being able to deny mana and still cast our spells sounds like a wonderful improvement.
Can you post a link to the Salvation thread you mentioned?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...eath-and-taxes
Barook and I have been discussing Noble Taxes over the most recent page or two of the thread. Initial results are quite promising.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SoldierToken
Sounds very promising, I'll have to get some testing in. Exalted triggers should help close the game out a lot quicker, and I like the idea of bringing the curve down a little. Being able to deny mana and still cast our spells sounds like a wonderful improvement.
Can you post a link to the Salvation thread you mentioned?
I test pretty much the same list as Medea, except Batterskull is in the main with Sword of War and Peace in the SB for me
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I'm not surprised in the least that Hierarch has you excited, Barook. I did 3-color (w/blue) a while back. The strong early plays and acceleration were intoxicating to the plodding pace at which D+T typically takes. I eventually missed my extra Karakas and Ports too much, but the card pool is different these days. I hope you find a way to make it work.
I think Hierarch works best when you stick to the original D&T as close as possible. That's why I wasn't initially impressed because I used KotRs and whatever because I tried to be fancy. I guess you eventually ran into the same problem of being too greedy, especially if you cut copies of Karakas and Ports. It's tempting, but most likely the wrong way to go.
The current list runs 3 Karakas and 4 Ports, which is the current standard.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm back boys!
I am currently in Prague brainstorming (not literally, with the card... Brainstorm) about D&T. Just got here after a little break from Legacy because of DTT. Well DTT is gone so it's time for D&T to be a deck to beat again! Finally it is our turn again to grind out blue decks with more creatures than they can handle!
I am here for the MKM series and I am still unsure which version of D&T I'm gonna play, but I still have a few days to decide.
With the return of BUG decks and a probable rise in the numbers of Dread of Night I'm thinking that a resilient version of D&T is the best (not a 4x Vryn Wingmare version). I'm just unsure exactly which direction I wanna go though. My favourite candidate at the moment is Imperial Taxes. But I am eager to hear input from you guys.
Elves is probably back in top form again despite miracles being a horrendous match up, and I want to be able to beat that. I am mainly looking to beat BUG decks, Miracles, Burn and Elves at the moment. But that's quite a stretch perhaps, and not necessarily all you could face at MKM series Prague.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahra
I'm back boys!
I am currently in Prague brainstorming (not literally, with the card... Brainstorm) about D&T. Just got here after a little break from Legacy because of DTT. Well DTT is gone so it's time for D&T to be a deck to beat again! Finally it is our turn again to grind out blue decks with more creatures than they can handle!
I am here for the MKM series and I am still unsure which version of D&T I'm gonna play, but I still have a few days to decide.
With the return of BUG decks and a probable rise in the numbers of Dread of Night I'm thinking that a resilient version of D&T is the best (not a 4x Vryn Wingmare version). I'm just unsure exactly which direction I wanna go though. My favourite candidate at the moment is Imperial Taxes. But I am eager to hear input from you guys.
Elves is probably back in top form again despite miracles being a horrendous match up, and I want to be able to beat that. I am mainly looking to beat BUG decks, Miracles, Burn and Elves at the moment. But that's quite a stretch perhaps, and not necessarily all you could face at MKM series Prague.
Welcome back! I wondered why you suddenly went missing.
Imperial Taxes is probably the best in terms of answers since Magus can nuke BUG's manabase while Elves can be handled with Sudden Demise. It should also handle Infect rather well. My main beef with Imperial Taxes is the way higher manacurve combined the lower number of actual beaters. It's just feels so slow sometimes.
I'm quite fond of "Noble Taxes" with Noble Hierarchs (see links above), but imho the tech is too new to bring it to a big tournament since the ideal list still hasn't been worked out yet, especially the sideboard.
Here's a summary of what Noble Hierarch does:
Quote:
Running Hierarch made me realize how it fixes several of D&T's structural flaws:
- Low count of white sources: Mathematically, 15 aren't enough white sources for what we're doing. Vial is the only reason why we're getting away with it most of the times. With 18 white sources total, we're in a much more stable place.
- Tension between deploying threats and mana denial: Vial hands combined with mana denial are great - you deploy your threats via Vial while you use your Wastelands and Ports to deny the mana of your opponent. Without Vial, things get more iffy. E.g. do you put Batterskull into play on turn 3 or do you keep porting your opponent, hoping to draw another land soon while you keep them off mana? Due to the higher mana density and acceleration provided by Hierarch, we're much more free to use mana denial to our heart's content while also playing threats. The deck is quite mana-hungy and binding it via mana-denial is sometimes somewhat counter-productive. Tapping lands with Rishadan Port doesn't kill anybody, threats do. Overall, we get more consistent since we now have a "Plan B" to Vial for a flowing threats + mana denial game plan - which also happens to play great in combination with Vial.
- General slowness of the deck: Yes, we're a control deck, but we're still slow as sh*t sometimes. Acceleration that doesn't cost CA certainly helps in that regard. The single extra mana often does make the difference, especially noticeable on T3.
Some other sidenotes:
- having more 1-drops for Vial @1 is nice to decrease the general durdle time
- former roadblocks (like Goyf) become much less problematic with exalted-powered beaters - in general, you lower the required clock to kill your opponent and can race much better than before
- getting your SFM killed becomes a bit less tragic when you can hardcast Batterskull soon after thanks to Hierarchs anyway - with the added bonus of Exalted Batterskull hitting for extra
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Funny, I have been toying with Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage, and Gaddock Teeg in my build too. Having 6-8 exalted triggers is pretty strong and Gaddock Teeg is a great bear. SoLoS can recur Pridemage after SB too, which is strong against the mirror.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I think the noble version might need to play 10 t1 green sources main. So you might need to give up a Karakas. Combined w/ 4 vials that gives you a 90% chance at having a way to play the noble in your opening hand. I agree that noble hierarch is probably the strongest card for a GW build - pridemage is a replaceable effect and teeg isn't maindeckable post-DTT and not even that amazing vs. miracles anymore.
The drawbacks of hierarch are:
- Like another vial it gets worse as the game goes longer, so having the mana for it immediately is pretty essential. And you also kinda *need* to win faster as you have more bad topdecks later or post-board wipe.
- Even weaker to -x/-1 effects post-board
Although I'm pretty partisan to the RW splash as I feel like it solves bigger problems, if I weren't playing it I think I would like either 4 nobles or 4 wingmares - in both cases you're pushing the deck in a very certain direction (speed, taxation) and will have unbeatable draws vs certain decks in legacy.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I think the noble version might need to play 10 t1 green sources main. So you might need to give up a Karakas. Combined w/ 4 vials that gives you a 90% chance at having a way to play the noble in your opening hand. I agree that noble hierarch is probably the strongest card for a GW build - pridemage is a replaceable effect and teeg isn't maindeckable post-DTT and not even that amazing vs. miracles anymore.
The drawbacks of hierarch are:
- Like another vial it gets worse as the game goes longer, so having the mana for it immediately is pretty essential. And you also kinda *need* to win faster as you have more bad topdecks later or post-board wipe.
- Even weaker to -x/-1 effects post-board
Although I'm pretty partisan to the RW splash as I feel like it solves bigger problems, if I weren't playing it I think I would like either 4 nobles or 4 wingmares - in both cases you're pushing the deck in a very certain direction (speed, taxation) and will have unbeatable draws vs certain decks in legacy.
10 sources based on what? 8 sources are the minimum if you go by high priority, the current test versions run 9 green sources, and that doesn't even take Vial into account. What's the mathematical difference between 13 and 14 ways to play it anyway? While it's best when played early, a T3 Noble is still fine. From my current testing results, I don't see any need for more green sources, especially when it involves cutting Karakas just as Sneaky Show comes back.
- And I don't get why you think that we need to rush things. The control core is still literally the same, except the deck just got a huge tempo boost. Noble Hierarch was included over other mana dorks exactly to be a less shitty topdeck lategame compared to lands while increasing the overall mana density.
- Sweepers are definitely a concern to keep in mind. We'll have to wait and see how that is going to be addressed.
Don't get me wrong, I also think that Imperial Taxes is the better deck for the current meta right now, but I'm interested to see what directions the Noble Taxes could take.
