[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

Alright so I was playing this deck yesterday at a 15-ish peepz tournament.
I do have some experience with the LED-version of the deck but tested this take on dredging only on MWS.
I run a list with 14 lands (awesome), 4 Breakthrough because I didnt have the 4th Golgari Thug *shrug* and 2 Dread Return.
Since I didn't take notes the Matchup part may be quite short:

Round 1 vs. Merfolk (I knew he would be playing it)
Game 1: First hand looks like DDD ftw - that's basically what I did. Although it took quite long (he almost had the ability to kill me with a Standstill).

I board in the recommended 3/2 Split of Null Rod and Ancient Grudge and the Firestorms, of course.

Game 2: I keep a very decent hand with a Dredger, Firestorm, Discard-critter, a Therapy and Mana.
He starts with an Island and dazes my first turn Critter, as I expected.
He then plays a Mutavault, passes and my Cabal Therapy resolves (I named Relic).
When I saw what he was holding I almost peed my pants.
He had of course some critters but more importantly he showed me 2 Propaganda (which I had no answer to).
Luckily for me he decided to race me. So he kept building up his army while attacking with Mutavaults. I still haven't found another cc1 Critter or Therapy to get rid of the Propagandas.
When he was attacking for lethal damage, I play out my Daze-proved Firestorm for 5, killing 2 Mutavaults, 1 Lord, 1 Reejerey and an Adept.
I discarded Ichorid + Dredger of course.
Next turn I get back my Ichorid, dredge into more fun and finally get to resolve my flashbacked Therapy.
SO MUCH WIN!

Round 2 vs. Canadian Threshhold
Game 1: ...as in "Ichorid usually wins Game 1 easily against a whole bunch of decks".

I'm quite sure that he doesn't have any Graveyardhate in the board. Since I expect to see Pyroclasm and EE I board in the Grudges and Rods again plus the super-awesome Ancestors Chosen.

Game 2: He had a strong mix of Tarmogoyf + Clasm.
Game 3: He really lacked the Goyf.

2:0 - nice start

Round 3 vs. Rbg Goblins (skilled Player)

Game 1: He had 2 Fanatics and 3 Removal Spells which was enough to cost me the game.
Game 2: I keep a decent hand with Discard-Critter, Lands, Firestorm, Dredger.
He opens with a Thoughtseize, picking the Firestorm. Next turn he drops a Relic. After that he plays a Lackey and an Aether Vial.
3 turns after that he tells me that I'm dead.

Round 4 vs. ANT (the scrub version)

Alright so this guy plays his ANT with Shockduals and comes up with a different Finisher every 2-3 weeks. Last time it was Spiraling Embers and I'll soon reveal what costed me game 2.
btw:
Sorcery - Arcane, 3R
Spiraling Embers deals damage to target creature or player equal to the number of cards in your hand.

Game 1: I am aware that he can either play his take on ANT or a Faerie deck (since he is mainly a Type 2 player).
I take the risk and open with Breakthrough which he lets resolve.
Next turn I can return an Ichorid and Dredge into some shit.
Cabal Therapy wins this one.

Game 2: He goes off on turn 3-4, I think. Has to stop at about 7 life. Then casts another AN, this time with Angel's Grace in response and draws his deck.

Sickening Dreams
Sorcery, 1B
As an additional cost to cast Sickening Dreams, discard X cards.
Sickening Dreams deals X damage to each creature and each player.

Just... wow

Game 3: 2 Therapies are enough.

So I went 3-1 ended up 4th I think and it was a fun event.

I am still unsure about my sideboard:
3 Rod
2 Grudge
1 Chosen
4 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor (shaky slot)
2 Wispmare

//Edit: Joe_C I wouldn't even think about cutting FKZ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FredMaster

[...]
So I went 3-1 ended up 4th I think and it was a fun event.
[...]

---

Yeah, and then you ended up puking all over my home and leaving and not participating in our draft, which we had to do with 7 people and which I won with fancy bs angels.
Meh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FredMaster

3 Rod
2 Grudge
1 Chosen
4 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor (shaky slot)
2 Wispmare

---

My Board looks like this at the moment:
3 Rod
2 Grudge
1 Chosen
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Wispmare

Since I haven't seen any Leylines in ~4 months, I don't pack much against it into the board.
1 Mare is usually enough against Propaganda since you can return multiple times and the chain does the job just as well.

The problem I have been having with Chain of Vapor forever is that it can't really get rid of something on it's own. This deck usually can't do the Breakthrough+LED+Dredge 4 Trolls and find a DA-thing.
Therefore you need at least a Therapy to make Chain of Vapor a decent removal.
Wispmare is also great against Deed, Survival, Moat and so on.

Anyone going to vestal tomorrow?

Is Sadistic Hypnotist any good in the LEDless builds too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ssbm Rocks1

Is Sadistic Hypnotist any good in the LEDless builds too?

---

I mentioned the idea a few months ago in this thread, and have been doing some limited testing with it. Im trying to design a more slow dredge based list that can handle the hate a little better. I will post a list when I get some solid testing in.

playing this weekend. will report with results. May make some changes to my last tournament list, but may just play the same thing one more time since I got close.....

Also playing this weekend and needing to optimize the sideboard. I'm thinking about playing 3 gargadons wich already proved they can be useful, and instead of firestorm i0m thinking about running sickening dreams, the single reason being i don't own any firestorm and i can't get them until sunday.

What do you guys think about sickening dreams ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by claudio.r

Also playing this weekend and needing to optimize the sideboard. I'm thinking about playing 3 gargadons wich already proved they can be useful, and instead of firestorm i0m thinking about running sickening dreams, the single reason being i don't own any firestorm and i can't get them until sunday.

What do you guys think about sickening dreams ???

---

Being sorcery speed is a little bit shitty. Being 2cc is a little shitty. Not being able to pick out certain creatures to target may be troublesome. One reason I love firestorm is that blood moon effects dont stop you from casting it. My current board:

3 Null Rod
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Its been fairly solid for me

Yeah, it's clearly worst than firestorm, but given that i can't get any firestorm until sunday, can it be a resonable substitute ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by claudio.r

Yeah, it's clearly worst than firestorm, but given that i can't get any firestorm until sunday, can it be a resonable substitute ?

---

No. But Devastating Dreams would be the closest thing to Firestorm.

Nuking your own lands sounds like a bad idea. At least sickening dreams let's you choose which cards you discard.

If you insist on spending 2 mana at sorcery speed, I'd pick Sickening over Devastating Dreams.

quick report on yesterdays Die Hard Games tourney:

Round 1 playing Jen with Mono U Chalice Esperoza Artifact control:
Game 1 she lands a early chalice at 1 then at 2(after I resolve tribe) she also needs to be reminded of Esperoza's upkeep trigger often, then tries to lay down a chalice at 1 when she has a chalice at 2 in play(she tries to finnagle taking the play back, but I say no, sorry). I win G1. G2 she gets an early 3sphere but i have lands and pay 3 for a putrid imp shich sticks. I start dredging and getting recurring ichorids on the board and some tokens. She forgets to bounce an artifact for Esperoza during her upkeep and draws a tormods crypt for the turn and tries to play it. I point out the 3sphere and that she missed the trigger, I call the judge, he shuffles her deck and has her start the turn again making sure she bounces an artifact for esperoza, she draws nothing good and scoops it.

Round 2 against dreadstill:
G1 I get there pretty quickly with ichorids and tokens
G2 This one goes on for awhile with him wastelanding my lands and me just needing 1 mana at the end to cast one of my ancient grudges(all 3 were in my grave) to nail dreadnaught. I cant draw a land my last turn to live.
G3 Proof I should be a dick to my opponents. I get an imp out early. I start dredging on my turn and he asks me why I didnt give him a chance to stifle the dredge :eek: :eek: :eek: . I say "urrhm, you can't, that's why" People around me agree and I proceed to dredge into some goodness and start pounding. He lands a dreadnaught, I need to keep some land in play to ancient grudge that bastard, I get a land, flashback ancient grduge, he puts the dreadnaught into his grave and then asks pretty much everyone in earshot if he can counter flashbacked spells :eek: :eek: , then he puts dreadnaught back into play from the grave, and forces the grudge which he apparently let resolve first: now really I should have made him lose this game right? since he pretty much got outside assistance and had allowed dreadnaught to hit the grave. I scoop it after I cant stop the naught.

Round 3, Joe with Merfolk
G1 He keeps me off mana with wasteland for a few turns and then I start to build advantage and win
G2 He gets an early relic which I make him use early since I manage to land tribe which blocks a mutavault for tons of turns and he ends up landing double propaganda which I scoop to with 10 minutes left in the round(this game was tedious, if I had a chance to therapy him and resolve ray before the 2nd propaganda hit I would have had a shot)
G3 Early relic hits, I get some moebas and make him blow relic early. I come back faster then he can land propaganda, which he does but a turn too late as I can waltz in for the win since I have plenty of mana on the board.

Round 4. Al with Goyf Sligh
g1 Ichorid does what it does and recurs shit to take the game down
g2. goyfs and burn kill me since I cant dredge anything meaningful this game
g3 lots and lots of burn owwwwwwwwww

round 5. I get matched up with my teammate so we ID and call it a day and head for food then home.

All in all the deck is still really good to me. Breakthrough got cast ZERO times once again. Im thinking maybe coliseum #4 and something else should be in their spot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joe_C

He lands a dreadnaught, I need to keep some land in play to ancient grudge that bastard, I get a land, flashback ancient grduge, he puts the dreadnaught into his grave and then asks pretty much everyone in earshot if he can counter flashbacked spells :eek: :eek: , then he puts dreadnaught back into play from the grave, and forces the grudge which he apparently let resolve first: now really I should have made him lose this game right? since he pretty much got outside assistance and had allowed dreadnaught to hit the grave. I scoop it after I cant stop the naught.

---

You could hold him to it since he clearly made a mistake and didn't counter the grudge, but he didn't really get outside assistance. Asking if he can countered flashback spells is more of a rules question and a judge would have answered that for him.

Anyway I learned to be a dick to my opponents from my ptq days. You just have to think of the match as a fight to the death. Anything you can do to win will help and anything you can do to hamper your opponents also helps. I also assume all of my opponents will be dicks.

So... by the third consecutive time i got 2º place...it's startign to get irritating.

Last sunday i took my non led dredge list to our little tournament ( 12 people this time, 4 rounds).
I didn't took notes, but i will try to remember the better parts, i went 3 - 1 losing in the final round to the guy who got 1st.

Round 1: vs Merfolk
Both games were pretty standard, didn't combo anytime, he doesn´t seem to see nothing important, and ichorid beats got him both games.

Round 2: vs Merfolk (with dreadnought/stifle)
Both games were pretty long, he got to stick dreadnought both games but in the first one i had a bunch of zombie tokens to chump block, then used a dread returned FKZ to go for the kill. Second game i had tireless tribe and two cards in hand to block the big guy and swing for the win.

Looking good, 2 - 0 and didn't see a single piece of hate !

Round 3: guess against what... what's wrong with this people ???
First game goes as expected, ichorid beats. Second game i was playing around cursecatcher, so it wouldn't remove my bridges, preparing to swing with 12 zombie tokens... echoing truth... start from the beggining, swing with 9 tokens... echoing truth... that's irritating... third time, no more choing truth... win the game.

3 - 0 Not bad

Last round i got paired against what we called "super burn".

Both games were a massacre, i got killed in a blink of an eye, not even stood a chance.

6 - 0 against merfolk, i think i got a little bit lucky as i didn't saw any hate...
Still im really happy because a played a not very optimal build of the deck, with a very questionable sideboard.

My list:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge Frome Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
2 Darkblast

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City Of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

SB:
4 Duress
2 Ray Of Revelation
1 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Sickening Dreams

Still in love with the deck, but maybe it's time to move to something else, or aybe even some drastic changes in this list ;)

what was the burn list running that was able to kill you? i thought we were faster, turn 3 as oppossed to their turn 5?

It was a "regular" burn list, that focused on 4 damage spells, char, flame javelin, fireblast. I didn't had any fast hands against him.. on game 1 i had tarnished citadel as the only land... ouch... on second game i had duress, and i figured i could race him, but the first 3 dredges didn't had nothing...
It was luck, i really thought i could beat burn with no problems, but this deck can poop in your hands really quick, hehehhehe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by claudio.r

It was a "regular" burn list, that focused on 4 damage spells, char, flame javelin, fireblast. I didn't had any fast hands against him.. on game 1 i had tarnished citadel as the only land... ouch... on second game i had duress, and i figured i could race him, but the first 3 dredges didn't had nothing...
It was luck, i really thought i could beat burn with no problems, but this deck can poop in your hands really quick, hehehhehe.

---

i fail to understand how you lost to a deck playing char and javelin.
at least say he had fanatic both games, but even then tireless tribe + any draw should the game just as easily

Bad dredges... and his deck curved perfectly both games... He did had fanatic game 2, but it was useless since i had no bridges in graveyard.

Roll call for Saturday at Vestal!!!!

I of course will be representing this deck in force!

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Flame Kin Zealot
2 Breakthrough
1 Eternal Witness



SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Null Rod
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation