[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Thoctar is good against:

-board control/slow control, including some CB decks
-aggro, including (and especially) the mirror

Thoctar is not good against:

-Daze/Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole
-blue blasts
-combo (too slow)

Crusher would be similarly good against board control/slow control, and similarly weak against blue blasts and combo. Although Crusher is a little easier to cast through Wastes/Stifles/Sinkholes (and grows larger when they destroy your lands), it's probably worse in the mirror since it has a toughness of 3 rather than 4. And that's important, because it's actually staying in for the mirror whereas it's usually getting boarded out against Dazes and blue blasts.

I think Crusher is weaker than Knight of the Reliquary, and I'm still unsure how Knight compares to Thoctar.

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I would like to emphasize that Thoctar then is not good against a lot of decks. I recently playetested Zoo vs. Merfolk and Thoctar especially sucked because it got dazed everytime I tried to play him Turn 3 (which I just have to try sonetimes to keep up the pressure). Later I waited a turn but then Thoctar looses even more relevance in this matchup. Also I do not see him relevant against board control because he is just too slow for that from CC point of view. With Humility and other 4cc threads hitting the table the next turn why should he? Against CB he might come in handy as Tarmogoyf 5 and 6, cannot be stolen easily by Shackles, not snared, not easily counterbalanced (although possible -> some list e.g. have Grip main) but hey if I am already "outbalanced" by CounterTop does a lucky drawn Thoctar really turn the game ... I doubt it. I'd rather go with a Lavamancer to shoot some more damage.

I complied data on the Zoo decks that ran thoctar and those that didn't. I'll be posting it today (as I don't have to do shit for school any more).

For what it's worth, the one GR zoo (Goyf Sligh, I guess) did better than any of the other zoo variants (RGB, RW, RGW), and it ran Lavamancer.

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Originally Posted by Zach Tartell

For what it's worth, the one GR zoo (Goyf Sligh, I guess) did better than any of the other zoo variants (RGB, RW, RGW), and it ran Lavamancer.

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How about Domain? At the moment it's the only Zoo version played in The Netherlands that actually reaches top 8.

None (not even a little bit). There were (consulting my manilla folder of knowledge):

• 6 Naya Zoo (this archetype had the best handwriting as a whole)
  
  • 5 with Pridemage
  • 4 with Thoctar
  • All six played Grim Lavamancer
  • 2 with Sylvan Library
• 1 RW (with Ismaru, Savannah Lions, and 3 Cannonists MD)
• 1 RGB with green only for Goyf, Black only for Confidant (and Perish boarded)
• 1 RG list (that can be found in the "lol look at how bad my typing skills are" thread in the reports forum)

I don't love you guys enough to figure out their rankings, though.

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Originally Posted by Carabas

I think Knight is worse than Wooly Thoctar against aggro (she's smaller in the early game), but can be better against board control decks (depending on if they have graveyard hate or not), and is much better against CB decks. Being able to outgrow goyf, fuel lavamancer, and get basic lands to avoid B2B/Wastelock can really help.

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Knight has ranged from being a 2/2 to being a 6/6, but I've never gotten it bigger than that. I think that it can be better than Thoctar, but I'm not sure that it's consistently bigger. I think Knight's biggest strength is that it can't be blue blasted, but I've been siding out my 3cc beater against a lot of blue decks anyways.

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

I would like to emphasize that Thoctar then is not good against a lot of decks. I recently playetested Zoo vs. Merfolk and Thoctar especially sucked because it got dazed everytime I tried to play him Turn 3 (which I just have to try sonetimes to keep up the pressure). Later I waited a turn but then Thoctar looses even more relevance in this matchup. Also I do not see him relevant against board control because he is just too slow for that from CC point of view. With Humility and other 4cc threads hitting the table the next turn why should he? Against CB he might come in handy as Tarmogoyf 5 and 6, cannot be stolen easily by Shackles, not snared, not easily counterbalanced (although possible -> some list e.g. have Grip main) but hey if I am already "outbalanced" by CounterTop does a lucky drawn Thoctar really turn the game ... I doubt it. I'd rather go with a Lavamancer to shoot some more damage.

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Yeah, Thoctar is pretty poor against Merfolk. However, I feel like Merfolk is an awesome matchup anyways, and it gets even better post-board with Volcanic Fallout and/or Jitte.

Against board control, Thoctar is a Goyf-sized threat that allows you to apply pressure without overcommitting to the board. Humility is a beating, but that's kind of unavoidable. Against most other 4cc threats, Thoctar is really good.

Against Daze-less CB decks, he's definitely strong. If you're getting locked out at 1cc and 2cc by a Counterbalance, chances are that you'll be able to resolve a Thoctar or at least force them to shuffle to dig for an answer. This is one of the matchups where he's still pretty good post-board.

At the moment, I feel pretty comfortable with my CB matchup, my tribal aggro matchup, and the mirror. With the exception of combo, that's most of my metagame. Thoctar is a bomb in the mirror, decent against some CB decks, and mediocre against tribal aggro. Until I find something better, I think I'm going to stick with Thoctar.

Guys, Price of Progress is the one card that sets Zoo so far ahead of the rest of the red agro variants. To support it you simply cant play 5 color, nor do you need to. GWR has everything you could want.

You cant play knight in the deck effectively, it competes too much with lavamancer. And lavamancer is easily the better card.

Tap Knight, sacrificing a land, to get a fetchland. Sac the fetchland, and amazingly, from your empty grave, there is another activation of Lavamancer!

But then your Knight is a 2/2 that is irrelevant in the combat phase. You have a Tarmogoyf that has a high chance of losing valuable P/T. You have sacrificed an entire turn of aggression for two damage and card disadvantage. I would rather cut the cutesie plays with Knight and just drop a 5/4 and beat face.

I agree, cutesie plays should not be the focal selling point of Knight. I think the questions should be:

1. How often is it coming down as a 5/5+?
2. How often are you able to keep (and want to keep a 3cc guy) in post board in the face of Blue Blasts?
3. How big of a liability is the reliance of threats 5-6 on the GY?

If the card matches or beats out Thoctar in these respects then I think the added fetch ability can help seal him as being superior, but for an agro deck, the idea of wasting a turn of swinging to grow him can't be seen as a huge perk. The fetch ability will occasionally help though, like in ground stall just building him up so he trades for 2-3 of an opponents smaller creatures, or thinning land from the deck, or fueling Lavamancer.

I haven't played Zoo much, but I'm considering building it.

On the Knight vs. Thoctar issue, it seems that relatively few people have addressed the difference between :1::g::w: and :r::g::w:. Based on your experiences playing the deck, how often has that third color mana been an issue, especially in the face of Wastelands? In what matchups does the color screw possibility of Thoctar become a non-issue? And in what matchups do they become even more relevant? Which of these matchups do you want to improve more?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I haven't played Zoo much, but I'm considering building it.

On the Knight vs. Thoctar issue, it seems that relatively few people have addressed the difference between :1::g::w: and :r::g::w:. Based on your experiences playing the deck, how often has that third color mana been an issue, especially in the face of Wastelands? In what matchups does the color screw possibility of Thoctar become a non-issue? And in what matchups do they become even more relevant? Which of these matchups do you want to improve more?

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As Zoo plays R sources at most and G and W come second I would say that this isn't really an issue. You should mulligan If you have no chance for R on your starting hand I would say. In my playtesting getting G or W sometimes is an issue against Wastelands and Co although I render G still more important than W due to the green creatures that build up pressure but this depends on the build and how much W is into it.

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Originally Posted by Waya

I'm currently trying out a list similar to Felipe de Castro's .

It's not traditional Zoo (and he didn't really call it zoo), but it has the same principles.

I'm running the following:

//Creatures - 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf

//Spells - 31
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Chain Lightning
4 Manamorphose
3 Land Grant
4 Path to Exile
4 Lotus Petal
3 Bequeathal
2 Reckless Abandon

//Land - 13
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

The deck tries to address zoo's biggest disadvantage - card advantage. Without black or blue the choices are limited (yes, I know the inherent problems with creature enchantments).

Early game, this deck runs very smoothly, but if it gets held up, it can have some issues. Pre-board it has issues going against control - post board it can be a pretty even match up (red/green have plenty of ways to deal with CBT/Chalice/Trinisphere). It rolls over weenies and usually goblins, too. Post-board against them it's pretty much a cake walk. All but 1 of your creatures are pyroclasm, so it definately goes in the board.

One thing I would like to try and replace is mogg fanatic. He is really weak for this deck (other than the synergy with bequeathal). I'd like to find a replacement for him. I've thought about mongoose.With fetchlands, petals, land grants, manamorphose, and other burn your gy fills up fairly quickly; however, it doesn't seem to be quick enough. Mongoose would, however, shine in a control match up if you manage to sneak him in first turn. Rogue Elephant, too, became an option, but with 13 lands the loss of one really hurts. Thought about Quirion Dryad, but once again, it is a little too slow. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Most importantly, the deck is really fun to play.

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Force of Will your Land Grant, what now?

No Qasali Pridemage in that decklist? Oh the horror of not being able to kill Jitte, Shackles, Vial, and many more game 1.

Anyway, I've picked up Zoo over the last couple of days, and here's the list I've made with tweaks:

Zoo

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [R] Taiga
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Savannah
3 [U] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
2 [TSP] Rift Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

I originally had 3 Price of Progress MD, but I wanted more versatile cards that could either burn/remove, so I added the 4th PtE and 2 Rift Bolt.

Any thoughts/questions?

I run 4 PoP. It is the reason to play the deck. I never kill myself with it cause of Fireblast. I aim to do about 10 damage with my critters, and burn out the rest. PoP and Flame Blast make this viable, alowing you to still use Lightning Bolt and Chain fir removal if need be.

Do you mean fireblast?

Yes, correct.

here is what I run

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Wild Nactle
4 Goyf
2 Kird Ape
4Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 PoP
3 Fireblast
2 Rift Bolt
4 Helix

11 Fetch Lands
6 Dules
Mountain
Plains
Forest

With my heavy burn suit, I should run Grims over Apes or Moggs, I need to test.

I love Mogg, and would be hard pressed to cut it. It seems like the worst creature if your expecting it to fill the roll of beater. His synergy with goyf is obvious. Comes out under CB, makes Blue Goyfs smaller than your Red Goyfs. He is your ponder, making sure goyf is 3/4 when it needs to be (less than that and you would be better off running blood knight...) He can offten swing into an untapped goyf, and get let threw since a Lightning bolt can seal the deal. This is a fine play if he's got in for a point or two. If you feel like your making concessions to the power of Confidant and Ichorid to play him, don't. That's the big lie of "good" cards talking.

You should run 4 Lavamancer in Zoo, always. It's that good, and if you're facing Merfolk or any deck that Lavamancer PWNS against, they will try to kill it, so always run 4 to make sure you always have one or an extra handy.
Also, Lavamancer can also help you win Goyf Wars better than Fanatic.

2 Kird Ape isn't effective. You want to reliably cast a threat turn 1. You should run 4 Kird Ape as well. You know, saying this stuff is backing up what I'm about to say below.

You know, come to think of it, I'm really hating Rift Bolt, but I only put it there because I wanted some burn/removal. I might cut the 2 Rift Bolt for Mogg Fanatic.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

You should run 4 Lavamancer in Zoo, always. It's that good, and if you're facing Merfolk or any deck that Lavamancer PWNS against, they will try to kill it, so always run 4 to make sure you always have one or an extra handy.
Also, Lavamancer can also help you win Goyf Wars better than Fanatic.

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Not from a tempo perspective. But I think we agree, Mogg and Grim are superb cards. I play against a lot of Ichorid, so I like my Moggs. They plummet in value vs. merfolk, which Is why I said I want to work them in.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

2 Kird Ape isn't effective. You want to reliably cast a threat turn 1. You should run 4 Kird Ape as well. You know, saying this stuff is backing up what I'm about to say below.

You know, come to think of it, I'm really hating Rift Bolt, but I only put it there because I wanted some burn/removal. I might cut the 2 Rift Bolt for Mogg Fanatic.

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Point taken. I might go back up to 3 apes. I think it is the weakest link in the deck, and would love to replace it. But it is a 1 drop threat, and there really is nothing to swap in quite like it. I run 4x PoP to your zero, so I don't think I am as pressured to swing in with guys. They might just become Vexing Sushers.

Rift bolt is badass, I am going to shave a helix and go to 3. it pushes past CB, and it can be suspended for a turn where you are going to go critical on landstill and push threw their counter wall.

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Originally Posted by TheCramp

Yes, correct.

here is what I run

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Wild Nactle
4 Goyf
2 Kird Ape
4Pridemage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 PoP
3 Fireblast
2 Rift Bolt
4 Helix

11 Fetch Lands
6 Dules
Mountain
Plains
Forest

With my heavy burn suit, I should run Grims over Apes or Moggs, I need to test.

I love Mogg, and would be hard pressed to cut it. It seems like the worst creature if your expecting it to fill the roll of beater. His synergy with goyf is obvious. Comes out under CB, makes Blue Goyfs smaller than your Red Goyfs. He is your ponder, making sure goyf is 3/4 when it needs to be (less than that and you would be better off running blood knight...) He can offten swing into an untapped goyf, and get let threw since a Lightning bolt can seal the deal. This is a fine play if he's got in for a point or two. If you feel like your making concessions to the power of Confidant and Ichorid to play him, don't. That's the big lie of "good" cards talking.

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This almost exactly resembles my current list in which I tried to stick to the Goyfsligh RG as near as possible except I play 3 Lavamancer instead of Mogg and one more Ape. Lavamancer can deal a lot of damage late game and can wreck decks like Merfolk on its own. Rift bolt and Helix are my most volatile slots. I am not sure about adding Fireblast or playing Magma Jet instead of Helix. Also I sometimes go down to 3 PoP because in some matchups it is a dead card.

Please keep in mind that with the new rulings Mogg becomes much weaker. It still serves it purpose against Dredge but in combat it is a wimp now.

So now that fanatic sucks I decided to replace him with rift bolt, making my build even more burn heavy. I'm not running path or swords because I don't like the tempo they allow the opponent and the only creature I worry about is dreadnought anyway. How's this list?

1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath

4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridmage
2 watchwolf
2 woolly thoctar
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
4 lightning helix
4 incinerate