All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by menace13

I have Hermit Druid built and have played against it. Not that it is the most powerful deck out there, but winning the turn it activates is not fun to play against. It comes down to removal,counter and hope they do not FoW/Daze it, at 2 mana a 1st turn Hermit is very easy to play and protect. Because the deck wins once activated and Cabal Therapy can clear removal/FoWs off nacros, i would say leave this alone.

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Druid based decks are bad Show and Tell or Storm decks.

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Originally Posted by menace13

Lol @ Bargain, Really? Bargain = Repeating Ad Naus. Bargain is no joke and will win on spot.

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A minor technicality. You wouldn't be repeating AdN, since you won't have the life total for it unless you fire off a mini-Tendrils. But if you have Yawg, why bother? You just replay all the stuff in your yard, and chances are what you have there already is enough.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Yeah, i played Belcher, something like 2 years ago, but i'm not following the deck anymore so it's purely theory here. I'm not sure 3 is that much better than RR in belcher, but i'll test it right away.

EDIT: Tested a bit. Isn't Belcher just an horrible deck? You have no protection, you run only 7 win condition +4 tutors and also Empty the Warrens is just a bad win condition in a deck with 8 ESG/SSG, 4 Tinderwalls and no draw spells. Not to talk about the fact that a lot of decks can race 10-12 goblins on turn 2, run sweepers, discard (a single thoughtseize rape you) and counters.
Even with 4 Vault instead of 4 Wraiths, deck would still massively suck as it would still be just too inconsistent and vulnerable.

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I think you're still underestimating Mana Vault's power (may it stay banned forever). :r::r: into :r::r::r: (Rite/Tinder -->Desperate Ritual) versus :r::r: into :r::3: (Rite/Tinder-->Mana Vault), for example, Rite-->Mana Vault --> Seething Song --> Burning Wish --> EtWarrens. Not to get into so many imaginary plays, but suffice to say, all Belcher's win conditions need :3: minimum, making Mana Vault a bomb at its :1: investment.

As for consistency issues, this is probably better suited for the Belcher thread itself, but I will say that the more you play the deck, the more you learn to fight through the hate. That said, if you don't have or incorrectly uses your hate against Belcher, then you better hide yo kids, hide yo wife and hide yo husband too cuz errbody gettin' raped out here. Of course, it's a classic style combo deck meaning it needs its pieces and when you take those pieces away or stop them, you fail: welcome to playing combo.

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Originally Posted by MMogg

I think you're still underestimating Mana Vault's power (may it stay banned forever). :r::r: into :r::r::r: (Rite/Tinder -->Desperate Ritual) versus :r::r: into :r::3: (Rite/Tinder-->Mana Vault), for example, Rite-->Mana Vault --> Seething Song --> Burning Wish --> EtWarrens. Not to get into so many imaginary plays, but suffice to say, all Belcher's win conditions need :3: minimum, making Mana Vault a bomb at its :1: investment.

As for consistency issues, this is probably better suited for the Belcher thread itself, but I will say that the more you play the deck, the more you learn to fight through the hate. That said, if you don't have or incorrectly uses your hate against Belcher, then you better hide yo kids, hide yo wife and hide yo husband too cuz errbody gettin' raped out here. Of course, it's a classic style combo deck meaning it needs its pieces and when you take those pieces away or stop them, you fail: welcome to playing combo.

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Yes i understand my inability to play combo, but my point was mainly that Vault wouldn't break anything. Belcher is and remain a pretty bad deck even with Vault, nowhere near black based storm decks.
Vault imho it's largely overrated in this format, and while i'm pretty sure it wold see play whereas Monolith did not, i'm also pretty sure it would suffer ultimately of the same problem: it wouldn't have a good home in this format.
Also, i'd really like some form of brown to be viable in legacy, but it's probably impossible being this a blue and creature based format.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Yes i understand my inability to play combo, but my point was mainly that Vault wouldn't break anything. Belcher is and remain a pretty bad deck even with Vault, nowhere near black based storm decks.
Vault imho it's largely overrated in this format, and while i'm pretty sure it wold see play whereas Monolith did not, i'm also pretty sure it would suffer ultimately of the same problem: it wouldn't have a good home in this format.
Also, i'd really like some form of brown to be viable in legacy, but it's probably impossible being this a blue and creature based format.

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Yeah, not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really don't think you're grasping HOW broken Mana Vault would be... allow me one final example:

Elvish Spirit Guide --> Mana Vault --> Mana Vault --> Belcher --> LED, win.

That's not so far fetched. Even now, with no Vault, I sometimes have to go into sideboarding without having any clue what my opponent was playing because I Belched him turn one on the play. I know, Belcher is not now and never will break Legacy, but I'm just looking at how Vault would change Belcher, and that alone is a huge impact. What I'm saying is what kind of change would it bring to other more flexible combo decks?

Turn 1 Island,
Turn 2 Island --> Mana Vault, Show and Tell (with mana left floating for Daze) and probably with Force back up.

There are other combo decks much more consistent and fiercer that would jump at Mana Vault as an accelerator.

I mean, I am a combo player and a Belcher player at that, and even I'm saying I don't want to see Mana vault unbanned. Only bad things can come of it. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Cabal_chan

A minor technicality. You wouldn't be repeating AdN, since you won't have the life total for it unless you fire off a mini-Tendrils. But if you have Yawg, why bother? You just replay all the stuff in your yard, and chances are what you have there already is enough.

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You're thinking of Yawgmoth's Will. Two problem situations with Yawgmoth's Bargain:

1. Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood:

It saves you 2 mana and it gives you 2 protection spells (if you Therapy it), and you get to win the game by drawing your whole deck. At the worst, if you don't draw the sac outlet, your opponent can't win without an evasion creature. See Oath of Druids for general unfun factor.

2. U/B Tendrils decks:

Ad Nauseum can't be cheated, and you can lose even after it resolves by shit luck. It also restricts deck construction by forcing you to have a lot of low CMC cards, making it a singleton you have to tutor up. You can run 4 Bargain, and the CMC restriciton means you can protect it with FOW. Also, since you're already running 4 copies of it and Force, why not throw in Show and Tell for possible turn 1 Bargain? Totally broken in storm combo. Necropotence would be a safer card to unban since you get the cards during your end step.[/QUOTE]

When is the new list supposed to come out anyway?

20th of September.

lol @ Mana Vault. I will play MUD all damn day if they unban that. Turn 1 Lodestone Golem? Yes please!

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Originally Posted by MMogg

Yeah, not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really don't think you're grasping HOW broken Mana Vault would be... allow me one final example:

Elvish Spirit Guide --> Mana Vault --> Mana Vault --> Belcher --> LED, win.

That's not so far fetched. Even now, with no Vault, I sometimes have to go into sideboarding without having any clue what my opponent was playing because I Belched him turn one on the play. I know, Belcher is not now and never will break Legacy, but I'm just looking at how Vault would change Belcher, and that alone is a huge impact. What I'm saying is what kind of change would it bring to other more flexible combo decks?

Turn 1 Island,
Turn 2 Island --> Mana Vault, Show and Tell (with mana left floating for Daze) and probably with Force back up.

There are other combo decks much more consistent and fiercer that would jump at Mana Vault as an accelerator.

I mean, I am a combo player and a Belcher player at that, and even I'm saying I don't want to see Mana vault unbanned. Only bad things can come of it. :laugh:

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You're just listing god hands, and what Vault can do in your examples, Dark ritual can do too. Or even Rite of flame in your second case.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

You're just listing god hands, and what Vault can do in your examples, Dark ritual can do too. Or even Rite of flame in your second case.

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You're absolutely right, let's unban Mana Vault right now.

Wait, SnT, Vault and a random eldrazi is a god hand? (including up to two draws, not even counting cantrips first turn)

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Originally Posted by MMogg

You're absolutely right, let's unban Mana Vault right now.

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Find better examples then, because i'm not scared by a colorless dark ritual. If you're so sure Vault would be broken, find better examples (like a list) or play me on MWS or something. Because you're not convincing me or anyone else by using Vault as a colorless ritual in your examples. Also, history showed me that Vault was busted in decks like Tinker, Academy or Stax, none of them is actually present in Legacy.
Just to say, in current Vintage, the Mana Vault slot in combo is often debated, and some people actually run Cabal ritual (iirc Smemmen prefer to run Vault in his storm decks) before it since it sinergize better with a lot of cards in your graveyard and YagWill, plus colored casting costs. Vault is usually an auto-include only if you play FoF or Gift. Also, since Vault is better in Brown decks, i actually think that the eventual unban of it would nerf combo, not buff it, by making prison actually viable in the format.
Not that i advocate the unbanning of it right before the printing of a big artifact set that could bring brown to a playable level even in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by leander?

Wait, SnT, Vault and a random eldrazi is a god hand? (including up to two draws, not even counting cantrips first turn)

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Vault wouldn't even be played in SnT decks and SnT can easily be played on turn two with no need of it. The examples that were listed showed a Vault used like a colorless Dark Ritual.
I'll repeat, i'm sure Vault would be played, but i can't see a single deck broken by it. Belcher would just be improved by it, but it would still just too inconsistent compared to storm (read; worse), unless there's something i can't see when i try it and when i play storm. The large majority of deck doesn't even have a card with 3 colorless in its mana cost. If someone want to test a decklist with me on MWS to prove me wrong i'll be glad, seriously.

EDIT: completely forgot about AdN costing 3BB and not 2BBB. Lol k. Card is bonkers.

Is mana acceleration really what Stax needs in Legacy?

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

You're thinking of Yawgmoth's Will. Two problem situations with Yawgmoth's Bargain:

1. Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood:

It saves you 2 mana and it gives you 2 protection spells (if you Therapy it), and you get to win the game by drawing your whole deck. At the worst, if you don't draw the sac outlet, your opponent can't win without an evasion creature. See Oath of Druids for general unfun factor.

2. U/B Tendrils decks:

Ad Nauseum can't be cheated, and you can lose even after it resolves by shit luck. It also restricts deck construction by forcing you to have a lot of low CMC cards, making it a singleton you have to tutor up. You can run 4 Bargain, and the CMC restriciton means you can protect it with FOW. Also, since you're already running 4 copies of it and Force, why not throw in Show and Tell for possible turn 1 Bargain? Totally broken in storm combo. Necropotence would be a safer card to unban since you get the cards during your end step.

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I have to agree with you:tongue: A permanent is indeed much more troublesome than an instant, totally overlooked it. It may not be unfair, but must be unfun (like unbanning Black Vise or Skullclamp).

Mana Vault - only being a colorless dark ritual does not warrant to be safe: a functional reprint of dark ritual would make the format degenerate as combos with 8 best rituals are just so consistent. The interaction with Voltaic Key is abusable, though not a huge factor to claim against the unbanning.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Druid based decks are bad Show and Tell or Storm decks.

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I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

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Originally Posted by menace13

I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

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Yeah, I would probably just combine a dredge plan and a venge-vival plan. Narco-Bridge-Therapy with Anger and possibly LED. Should be consistant turn 2/3 combo potential and a Venge slow-roll. It'd basically function like an improved Dredge.

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Originally Posted by menace13

I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

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You're right they don't play out the same at all because the aforementioned decks dont eat it to commonly played removal spells like Bolt Plow/PTE and don't have a vulnerability to GY hate. You're better off just putting an Emrakul into play and locking up the game from there. Emrakul is even kind enough to be incredibly hard to remove outside of a few narow cards. Good luck getting Hermit Druid into play and untapping with him in a format where every deck can attack your combo from multiple angles.

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.

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Hello? The pool is from ages ago and actually, we were discussing the unbanning of some debatable cards.

Or maybe you're just trolling.