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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Well, I'm fairly nervous about all the talk going on and am dumping at the very least all my Vintage stuff and any extra items I keep for investments sake. I would stand to lose thousands upon thousands if they decided to really go into that reserve list much at all, so time to dump. Expect a few really rare and hard to find things to hit the bay soon. It's just it seems to me with all the talk, there has to be people listening and reading these boards who really do have some control of this stuff.
It's about time it happened anyway.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm going to pipe up one more time on these boards. Initially I was just making fun of the prices that have gone ballistic and the idea that people feel they have any right to tell Hasbro what to do regarding reprints. I also had a nauseous reaction to the price of Loyal Retainers which in my mind is only good as a 1 of in 1 deck and was obviously driven by speculation. I'm also puzzled by Tabernacle prices to a point because they have reached mox level pricing more or less. The thing with moxes is you often play all 5 in T1 regardless of whether you are in color or not. This land is a corner case non-mana producing land that is a VERY powerful strategy for decks that lose to 1/3 of rock/paper/scissors (i.e. combo) and fits in only a few decks.
My problem isn't with paying money for cards. I mean I've shelled out a TON of money over the years. My problem is speculation artificially inflating the value of cards and then people not being able to play the game any more. Even if a dual land was $50 today BUT it creeped up a couple of dollars a year I would be cool with that. However, it was like Taiga=$25 on ebay from 2006/7 through even most of 2009 and then boom the price everywhere jumps and almost doubles! If Taiga is $50 by 2015 or something I'm cool with that (I'm sure packs will be like $4-5 or something by then), but this is too much too fast to ask players who don't have everything to put in.
I think I have a reasonable way to make reprints by making more judge and player promos (not just the ones for playing in x sanctioned games). I believe there needs to be a balance between reprinting Legacy cards in core set numbers and not reprinting them at all.
Think about it, what if at every GP or PTQ you received 1 randomly sorted foil dual land . How about for high level events the top 8 gets a foil special card? Now if you the player want to sell this card back to the dealers at whatever price it's their decision.
My issue isn't with dealers per say but with the fact that if wizards goes to distribute these cards through dealers then guess what? You have an MSRP of $x and a street value of $5x (FTVE) or $10x (if somethings that were in very high demand were reprinted).
IMO even removing the reserve list or removing just an expensive card every once in a while is enough to make most speculators shit bricks. Obviously, I wouldn't want to see a black lotus that I spent $500 reprinted in 2012 as a mythic rare but I only have 1 because I'm a player. I'll probably keep my 1, but how many guys that keep 5 or 10 lotuses in binders are gong to sit on them if they know it will go down to a $100 card? I believe the mere threat of a reprint is enough to push more cards into the market and drive the prices down a bit.
The bottom line, there should be a balance between creating accessability, punishing speculators (sorry guys this is a game and your profiteering is hurting the game), and maintaining value OTHERWISE we can just sell/burn all our cards and play with 60 card proxy decks on blank sheets of paper (Then everyone can go fuck themselves, we'll all have as many lotuses as we want!)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
I believe the mere threat of a reprint is enough to push more cards into the market and drive the prices down a bit.
Second that. Some talking about abolishing the Reseved List and people start to sell their excess cards. Exactly what we needed. If enough speculators make that decision maybe there is no need to actually reprint something since more duals enter the market. I doubt it that this will be enough but it is definately a good first step.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I like this. People selling stuff off at the threat of it possibly losing value.
I'm gonna go watch Chicken Little now...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
The bottom line, there should be a balance between creating accessability, punishing speculators (sorry guys this is a game and your profiteering is hurting the game), and maintaining value OTHERWISE we can just sell/burn all our cards and play with 60 card proxy decks on blank sheets of paper (Then everyone can go fuck themselves, we'll all have as many lotuses as we want!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
Second that. Some talking about abolishing the Reseved List and people start to sell their excess cards. Exactly what we needed. If enough speculators make that decision maybe there is no need to actually reprint something since more duals enter the market. I doubt it that this will be enough but it is definately a good first step.
Just out of curiosity, what deluded percentage of the market do you guys imagine speculators make up? At first I figured the whining was targeted at speculators just because of the "I'm unhappy and it's someone's fault" mentality, but it sounds like you guys have the impression that speculators make up some major or even slightly significant portion of the market and have the ability to markedly affect it with their purchases. The kind of traffic (traffic, not single purchases) it would take to move the price of an easy-to-find card (Tarmogoyf) $30 is more or less impossible for a population the size of the people who would consider themselves "speculators" and are buying only for the sake of resale.
Though I wouldn't consider myself a speculator for most cards I own, I'm still unloading like crazy- I've sold off about 75% of my duals and legacy staples, as will speculators, who as you say, will shit bricks at the threat of reprints. There are more duals and forces available on ebay than I've seen in months and yet, prices continue to climb. Maybe, just maybe it's not the speculators but the players (the vast, vast majority) themselves who are digging their own graves?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IsThisACatInAHat?
Just out of curiosity, what deluded percentage of the market do you guys imagine speculators make up?
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There are more duals and forces available on ebay than I've seen in months
It seems they make up enough to create a reasonable impact.
Prices tend to go up a lot faster then they go down and since the GP will be in a few days, its only reasonable that noone will lower their prices.
After that we can see weater it will change or not. As I said, the "threat" alone might not be enough to bring the prices down again but it should have some effect. (Hopefully a positive one)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Sure, I may sell off 20-30 of my duals, because I'm starting to get paranoid. Big victory. How many people have to do the same before prices actually go down? Answer: There aren't enough people. I don't believe there's nearly so many duals tied up by hoarders and speculators as some of you imagine. No, the only thing that's going to drive down the prices is a reprint, which I'm beginning to think has a decent chance of happening.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I think I'm in the minority, but I certainly did not get into Magic due to financial reasons. Sure, I like mint/near mint condition cards, but I'm definitely a player first, collector... never. If I have to pay xxxx dollars in order to play the decks I do (Canadian Thresh, etc) then so be it. If my $1,000 deck is "worth" $100 next week, I don't care as long as it's still competitive. I suppose because I also play Standard, buying "money" cards one month, only to see them worth 1/10 of what I paid for them the next month doesn't really phase me; Magic =/= sound financial investment.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Even if people begin to release their cards into the market due to fear of reprints, that will only be a very small portion of the population(MTG Population), ~15%. The other duals will still be locked in a vault, collecting dust.
If Wizards plans on using the Reserved list and reprints to force speculators to release their cards for sale, they need to choose a card that is actually necessary(not some shitty Negator), and then reprint it, in a promo, deck, whatever.
And then if that still doesnt work, they definitely need to send out even a small amount of reprinted duals, ect, thus FORCING the speculators to lose money, or to resell.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
I think I'm in the minority, but I certainly did not get into Magic due to financial reasons.
No, you're in the vast majority, which includes me.
And you might not mind your $1000 deck becoming worth $100, until a year or two down the road, when you need to fix your car, go to college, or whatever. Or maybe you've just decided to quit Magic, and gee wouldn't it be nice if all those COLLECTIBLE trading cards that you spent all that money on were actually worth something now?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Regarding the question of a how much even a single speculator can affect the market. Refer to the success dahcmai reported on with Sea Drakes. With regards to loyal retainers look on these boards and see how many people bought more than 1 when they had the chance. I will also refer to real life. Some people BELIEVE that MTG is an investment they can play with. This is a self fulfilling prophecy. People say to themselves I should buy x because I can always sell it for more later.
Regarding eBay speculation. I believe it is very easy to use a bid sniping program to bid a minimum on a card such that the card is always sold to someone else at or above that price effectively pushing a price to at least that threshhold.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
No, you're in the vast majority, which includes me.
And you might not mind your $1000 deck becoming worth $100, until a year or two down the road, when you need to fix your car, go to college, or whatever. Or maybe you've just decided to quit Magic, and gee wouldn't it be nice if all those COLLECTIBLE trading cards that you spent all that money on were actually worth something now?
I suppose I've never viewed Magic cards as investments like you have. As such, I don't care if my cards are worth only their weight in ink and cardboard nor do I care if I'm able to recoup any of the money I've used to buy my cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Well, I have several sets of beta, one set of Alpha, one set of Arabian, and obviously a ton of the newer ones if you've ever looked at my Ebay stuff. Do I keep that stuff for nostalgia? Not at all, I kept it because I was a collector and a player. I figured it was fairly safe holding on to those cards knowing they weren't going to reprint them and I could sit on them as long as I liked not worrying about a major drop. Beta and Alpha cards hardly ever see a drop. I started as one of the collectors who played casually.
Now that it's "official" they plan to release some of these again in duel decks and not only Judge promos, that's worrysome for this large horde sitting around. Of course I would sell it. I would rather have a safe investment than one I can't trust. All these cards will turn into real estate. I doubt I'll make a real dent in the card population. I doubt 5 Lotuses will even be noticed by the Magic community, but my bank will notice. If they decide to reprint a card from the old days I might as well buy the new one instead of holding on to older ones. No point in it and in fact there's all the reason to sell out.
To me the "collectable" part of the game is now dead.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Well, I have several sets of beta, one set of Alpha, one set of Arabian, and obviously a ton of the newer ones if you've ever looked at my Ebay stuff. Do I keep that stuff for nostalgia? Not at all, I kept it because I was a collector and a player. I figured it was fairly safe holding on to those cards knowing they weren't going to reprint them and I could sit on them as long as I liked not worrying about a major drop. Beta and Alpha cards hardly ever see a drop. I started as one of the collectors who played casually.
Now that it's "official" they plan to release some of these again in duel decks and not only Judge promos, that's worrysome for this large horde sitting around. Of course I would sell it. I would rather have a safe investment than one I can't trust. All these cards will turn into real estate. I doubt I'll make a real dent in the card population. I doubt 5 Lotuses will even be noticed by the Magic community, but my bank will notice. If they decide to reprint a card from the old days I might as well buy the new one instead of holding on to older ones. No point in it and in fact there's all the reason to sell out.
To me the "collectable" part of the game is now dead. I guess no one really cares about collectors anyway.
But cards like Wrath of God kind of discredit that view, don't they? Wrath has been reprinted numerous times but Alpha and Beta versions are still worth a good sum. Reprinting doesn't always = a decline in value.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Well, I have several sets of beta, one set of Alpha, one set of Arabian, and obviously a ton of the newer ones if you've ever looked at my Ebay stuff. Do I keep that stuff for nostalgia? Not at all, I kept it because I was a collector and a player. I figured it was fairly safe holding on to those cards knowing they weren't going to reprint them and I could sit on them as long as I liked not worrying about a major drop. Beta and Alpha cards hardly ever see a drop. I started as one of the collectors who played casually.
Now that it's "official" they plan to release some of these again in duel decks and not only Judge promos, that's worrysome for this large horde sitting around. Of course I would sell it. I would rather have a safe investment than one I can't trust. All these cards will turn into real estate. I doubt I'll make a real dent in the card population. I doubt 5 Lotuses will even be noticed by the Magic community, but my bank will notice. If they decide to reprint a card from the old days I might as well buy the new one instead of holding on to older ones. No point in it and in fact there's all the reason to sell out.
To me the "collectable" part of the game is now dead.
That sounds a lot more like speculating than collecting to me =).
I guess a collector would hold onto them, since they usually don't care weather their stuff is wort a million or nothing. They collect for the sake of collecting, not for the value of their stuff.
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And I'm cool with my cards havin no more value if I quit in a few years. Magic is a hobby to me, if I would spend my time at the movies instead the money would be gone as well.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I see all those hardcore collectors on Alexis' site, and see what they pay for mint stuff that's not even on the reserve list... Honestly, I don't think they would give a shit. I'm talking about the guys that have sets of summer and stuff like that.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
But cards like Wrath of God kind of discredit that view, don't they? Wrath has been reprinted numerous times but Alpha and Beta versions are still worth a good sum. Reprinting doesn't always = a decline in value.
Well, you know that alpha WoG does not cost that much as it would cost, wouldn't it be reprinted in every basic set since alpha?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
=Aleksandr;430364]Well, you know that alpha WoG does not cost that much as it would cost, wouldn't it be reprinted in every basic set since alpha?[/QUOTE]
Considering it's not really Vintage or Legacy playable, I don't think it would be too sought after. Being Standard legal for so many years makes it a nostalgic card for most people, not just an old curious oddity out of the grasp of the majority of players. Anyway, we can't be sure since that's a speculative only answer.
But, working with what we do know, it was printed in nearly every core set, Portal, and a promo. But the value, in light of those millions and millions of copies, still was decent for A/B. The value on A/B Wrath, in other words, never tanked no matter how many reprints.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
Well, you know that alpha WoG does not cost that much as it would cost, wouldn't it be reprinted in every basic set since alpha?
Considering it's not really Vintage or Legacy playable, I don't think it would be too sought after. Being Standard legal for so many years makes it a nostalgic card for most people, not just an old curious oddity out of the grasp of the majority of players. Anyway, we can't be sure since that's a speculative only answer.
But, working with what we do know, it was printed in nearly every core set, Portal, and a promo. But the value, in light of those millions and millions of copies, still was decent for A/B. The value on A/B Wrath, in other words, never tanked no matter how many reprints.
I don't think you can deny that the value would be higher had it not been reprinted in countless sets.
That said, your comparison is between black bordered and white bordered. As we all know, players love black bordered cards and that is why alpha and beta versions of the card have retained value. For the purposes of reprinting legacy staples; included in staples are dual lands. The vast majority of players own white bordered revised duals or unlimted duals. So if Wizards are to reprint these in black bordered form (promo, dual deck, new set etc...) it will have a much greater impact than your wrath of god comparison.
By the sounds of it, Wizards is looking at reprinting the reserve list in premium products (i.e. black bordered and foil) which in my opinion is the worst approach they can take. It is going to definitely devalue white bordered dual lands if reprinted, but probably not greatly impact original bb duals. It's for this reason I think white bordered with new border reprints is the way forward.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nizmox
By the sounds of it, Wizards is looking at reprinting the reserve list in premium products (i.e. black bordered and foil) which in my opinion is the worst approach they can take. It is going to definitely devalue white bordered dual lands if reprinted, but probably not greatly impact original bb duals. It's for this reason I think white bordered with new border reprints is the way forward.
I don't agree with this. I think that people will still value the harder to find white bordered (and FBB/BB) old ones more. Sure, they may not be all black bordered and sexy, but because they are older, they should still hold the higher value. They will probably also end up being more scarce than the reprinted black bordered ones. I think that their price will take a hit, but I don't think that the theoretical new ones would end up being of a higher value just because they are foil. I honestly believe that the old ones eventually could rise amazingly for one reason. White bordered versions of cards are the new black border. They're more rare anymore (not counting beta/fbb). Think about it, what was the last white bordered set?
