[Deck] Painter-Stone

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Depends on the build obviously. More exactly how many maindeck Blasts and the type of engine. E.g. I played a build with Thoughtcast and Snapcaster as a draw engine and it crushed Miracles, because they couldnt handle the amount of cardadvantage.

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That's why I asked for the list :). Maybe you can give yours, to get a debate going. I couldn't find it in the last 3 pages.
This deck may have a shot in the metagame, since it is strong versus Lands/Loam and Miracle with the right build.

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Originally Posted by Jizz

That's why I asked for the list :). Maybe you can give yours, to get a debate going. I couldn't find it in the last 3 pages.
This deck may have a shot in the metagame, since it is strong versus Lands/Loam and Miracle with the right build.

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They did post his list, he got 11th. I'm not sure why SCG removed his list from the results but here it is: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18983&iddeck=144090.

I'm thinking about getting into Painter (usually a Reanimator/TinFins/Dredge/Storm player).

What's the one LED for? I see this in a lot of lists, and I'm perplexed.

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Originally Posted by alaska

I'm thinking about getting into Painter (usually a Reanimator/TinFins/Dredge/Storm player).

What's the one LED for? I see this in a lot of lists, and I'm perplexed.

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activate grindstone faster

It is basically the traditional Intuition build he played with a splash for Tezz. I dont like the situational Dack and Bridge in the maindeck over maxing out SDT and Mox. Questions are:
(1) What do think about the black splash? Imo it is a strong option and should definitely be explored. Thoughtseize is another strong black card to consider. The question is if it is stronger than another on color alt win / search option? E.g. 2 Transmute Artifact and a Batterskull. TA can tutor stuff up directly and allows us to put additional Grindstones etc to good use. It can also dump Skull into the yard to weld it in. Note that Skull also makes Welder good in the face of an active DRS (as it cannot be removed). Also finding the Nihil Spellbomb in time can be difficult without TA.
(2) What do you think about the Dack's and Ensnaring Bridge? Dack hasnt proven itself that well in Grixis list, because his artifact steal isnt relevant enough in Legacy. He cannot protect himself and relies on other cards to be good (Bridge and Welder). Bridge is strong in Painter decks, but more sb material. This build also cannot find it reliable in time. Bridge from the board becomes stronger with TA in the deck. 7 CMC3 is also quite high even with acceleration (with 3 Tezz on top!).

Sidenote: Counterbalance should be at least considered in Painter decks. Mana management becomes a problem though. It possibly shifts away the focus of the deck, but could be worthwhile if considered as a way to protect Welder and Painter against removal.

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

activate grindstone faster

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So it's just a miser's piece of acceleration? Seems like you wouldn't consistently draw it.

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Originally Posted by alaska

So it's just a miser's piece of acceleration? Seems like you wouldn't consistently draw it.

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It's for the intuition. If you have a welder out, you intuition for the pieces you need and LED, you weld in LED and use it to activate grindstone.

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Originally Posted by drude1

It's for the intuition. If you have a welder out, you intuition for the pieces you need and LED, you weld in LED and use it to activate grindstone.

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Got it, that makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

It is basically the traditional Intuition build he played with a splash for Tezz. I dont like the situational Dack and Bridge in the maindeck over maxing out SDT and Mox. Questions are:
(1) What do think about the black splash? Imo it is a strong option and should definitely be explored. Thoughtseize is another strong black card to consider. The question is if it is stronger than another on color alt win / search option? E.g. 2 Transmute Artifact and a Batterskull. TA can tutor stuff up directly and allows us to put additional Grindstones etc to good use. It can also dump Skull into the yard to weld it in. Note that Skull also makes Welder good in the face of an active DRS (as it cannot be removed). Also finding the Nihil Spellbomb in time can be difficult without TA.
(2) What do you think about the Dack's and Ensnaring Bridge? Dack hasnt proven itself that well in Grixis list, because his artifact steal isnt relevant enough in Legacy. He cannot protect himself and relies on other cards to be good (Bridge and Welder). Bridge is strong in Painter decks, but more sb material. This build also cannot find it reliable in time. Bridge from the board becomes stronger with TA in the deck. 7 CMC3 is also quite high even with acceleration (with 3 Tezz on top!).

Sidenote: Counterbalance should be at least considered in Painter decks. Mana management becomes a problem though. It possibly shifts away the focus of the deck, but could be worthwhile if considered as a way to protect Welder and Painter against removal.

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When i tried the black splash out in the past, I found it was too slow, but it is possible the format is slower. It definitely made the matchup with various flavors of delver better, though i was playing some number of Baleful Stryx at the time which are good in that matchup and UH-Mazing with Welder. I was not wild about dack in any incarnation I have played. Ensnaring bridge is a powerful card, but I like it more as a one of when I can consistently get it into play (read I am playing some number of transmute artifact). I think it is a similar card for our purposes to wurmcoil engine, and either can be fine.

Overall, I agree with you, but I am encouraged to see people trying different things. Like I said, with Tezzeret and Black in general I like stryx, that guy does work. That being said, i think the biggest issue for this deck right now is probably miracles, so adding in planeswalkers seems like a reasonable plan to me.

EDIT: Here is a start for a black list that I would try our, might need a bit more mana, maybe in the form of monolith?
Deck: Painter /b http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif

//Main
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Baleful Strix
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Mox Opal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Island
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
4 Grindstone

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics

Hello everyone. This is my first post on this thread. The last time I played U/R painter was a few years ago at an SCG in Los Angeles. More recently I'd switched over to Strawberry Shortcake (R/w painter) but have been extremely unhappy with how badly it draws. Drawing a hand of blasts is so disappointing when you don't have a painter. Recruiter is such a slow means of finding a painter and enlightened tutor never felt good. I'll miss rest in peace, but I wanted to see how U/R was doing, seeing how it was the funnest Legacy deck i'd ever played.

Just wanted to post the following list, as I hadn't seen any discussion on it yet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=95717

I really like what Grixis has to offer with Tezzeret. As a plan B it is vastly superior to mono R / Rw's plan of attacking with welders/painter's servants.

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Originally Posted by amppyou

Hello everyone. This is my first post on this thread. The last time I played U/R painter was a few years ago at an SCG in Los Angeles. More recently I'd switched over to Strawberry Shortcake (R/w painter) but have been extremely unhappy with how badly it draws. Drawing a hand of blasts is so disappointing when you don't have a painter. Recruiter is such a slow means of finding a painter and enlightened tutor never felt good. I'll miss rest in peace, but I wanted to see how U/R was doing, seeing how it was the funnest Legacy deck i'd ever played.

Just wanted to post the following list, as I hadn't seen any discussion on it yet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=95717

I really like what Grixis has to offer with Tezzeret. As a plan B it is vastly superior to mono R / Rw's plan of attacking with welders/painter's servants.

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If you look up about 10 posts, CptHaddock has posted that list, but from a different link: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18983&iddeck=144090. deadlock made an analysis of the black splash; I thought he had some good thoughts about the black splash. I have the idea that in a slower metagame, Tezzeret might be good.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

It is basically the traditional Intuition build he played with a splash for Tezz. I dont like the situational Dack and Bridge in the maindeck over maxing out SDT and Mox.

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Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,

I plan on writing a report eventually but I need more time.

(1)

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Thoughtseize is another strong black card to consider.

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I've wanted Thoughseize for its versatility. But nothing ends counterwars like Fluster. And with the necessary artifact lands, it's better to be more consistent.
I also like reactive things in those matches. Floating a fluster on top with top protects you from duress. Thoughtseize can also be a bad topdeck. Fluster is good against burn.
I also never want to thoughtseize a reanimator player and see just creatures and lands after they brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

The question is if it is stronger than another on color alt win / search option?

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Tezz is a house! IMO it is way better than Jace at the price of having to build a deck around him. He's card advantage/search and an alternate wincon around Emrakul all in one.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

TA can tutor stuff up directly and allows us to put additional Grindstones etc to good use.

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I think Tezz is a better search than TA because you wont get 2for1ed which is terrible. Searching makes him more of a threat. Also, every turn he makes top better.
Additional grindstones are useful because Opponent wont be able to break one if another is open. Also, in the late game you can activate, they go to kill painter, and you can activate again. They're also really good at pitching to force once they're blue and throwing away with brainstorm. In summation card advantage is key.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

It can also dump Skull into the yard to weld it in. Note that Skull also makes Welder good in the face of an active DRS (as it cannot be removed).

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Batterskull is way to slow for my taste. To be honest, I haven't tested it though. But I imagine that I don't want to Transmute to 5 mana.
I've never had a problem with DRS eating creatures, only with fighting bloodmoons.
Welder doesn't need help.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Also finding the Nihil Spellbomb in time can be difficult without TA.

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This opinion is very valid, but I didn't really need Nhil durring the tournament, Tezz gave consistency. Note, Against a lot of grave decks, TA CAN BE too little too late.

(2)

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Dack hasnt proven itself that well in Grixis list, because his artifact steal isnt relevant enough in Legacy. He cannot protect himself and relies on other cards to be good (Bridge and Welder).

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I agree! The problem is that I knew I was going into a heavy Death and Taxes/UW meta, and I was worried about MUD. This was purely an essential meta choice. I would not have done well without him. I stole 2 Jitte's, a Sword of Fire and ICE, 2 mox diamond (with bloodmoon out), I messed with top/counterbalance, he saved a lot of swings at my face, and I even stole a chalice on 1 which I turned into a 5/5 to block forever. He also made the 4 welder amazing all day during game 1s.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Bridge is strong in Painter decks, but more sb material. This build also cannot find it reliable in time. Bridge from the board becomes stronger with TA in the deck. 7 CMC3 is also quite high even with acceleration (with 3 Tezz on top!)

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Intuition->Welder is all you need game 1. Then TA comes in. Against most decks you wont need bridge if Tezz's making artifact lands into 5/5s. Also, those lands can't be abrupt decayed.
The curve allows you to throw a haymaker every turn, in the hopes that one lands and K.O.s your opponent.
Bridge is just an extra haymaker.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Sidenote: Counterbalance should be at least considered in Painter decks. Mana management becomes a problem though. It possibly shifts away the focus of the deck, but could be worthwhile if considered as a way to protect Welder and Painter against removal.

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Counterbalance is so very slow to set up. I wanted to try it in the side but don't have the space. The real focus of the deck is to throw haymakes till you win, or to find silver bullets G2.

I hope that helps clear things up. IDK when I'll get that tournament report out, but it'd be nice.

Great answers. As a long time painter player I found your responses helpful in sharing the perspective of a painted stone player.

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,

I plan on writing a report eventually but I need more time.

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Definitely looking forward to the report if you get a chance to write it!

Tezz 2.0 looks really strong. I think everyone thought vanilla Tezz would be more synergistic with the main plan, but you can't discount the value of a strong plan B (especially when Emrakul is lurking around)!

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,

I plan on writing a report eventually but I need more time.

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Thanks for your reply, and looking forward to the report. I hope you have time and an inclination to write it! Question: how do you protect Welder in game 1 from cards like Abrupt Decay, since Spellkite is in the sideboard?

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Originally Posted by keys

Definitely looking forward to the report if you get a chance to write it!

Tezz 2.0 looks really strong. I think everyone thought vanilla Tezz would be more synergistic with the main plan, but you can't discount the value of a strong plan B (especially when Emrakul is lurking around)!

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I'm just getting into Legacy from a many-year hiatus from Magic and am looking to try out Welder/Stone. What's Tezz 2.0 and what's vanilla Tezz?

Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is Little Tezz or Tezz 2.0
Tezzeret the Seeker is Big Tezz or Vanilla Tezz

You don't protect Goblin welder from Abrupt Decay. If they are choosing to use premium removal on a non-combo piece it already preformed the work of Spellskite.

Spellskite is in the sideboard for additional protection for your permanents such as painter/stone/welder/blood moon, etc. it also has other interactions with the format as well such as against burn and infect which also makes it valuable

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Originally Posted by Fordin

Thanks for your reply, and looking forward to the report. I hope you have time and an inclination to write it! Question: how do you protect Welder in game 1 from cards like Abrupt Decay, since Spellkite is in the sideboard?

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Originally Posted by Rampart

You don't protect Goblin welder from Abrupt Decay. If they are choosing to use premium removal on a non-combo piece it already preformed the work of Spellskite.

Spellskite is in the sideboard for additional protection for your permanents such as painter/stone/welder/blood moon, etc. it also has other interactions with the format as well such as against burn and infect which also makes it valuable

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Rampart answered this well. I think of Welder as a preemptive, and mana efficient, counterspell, and if they don't deal with Welder he wins games. Like I said, you want to keep throwing bombs/haymakers until your opponent is overwhelmed. So think of welder as a lightning(bolt)-rod that wins games.

Spellskite might not be in the SB if infect and burn didn't exist. Those decks are scary, fast. I still haven't decided if bloodmoon should come in against infect. Either way, those matchups are tough.

Hey, thanks for the detailed answers That nice guy! Some remarks:
- TA is only card disadvantage if it resolves and thus a way to make use of redundant effects. But you are right that FoW pitching does the same. TA tutoring for specific board cards is one advantage, but you solve it by having TA in the board as well, so this is covered too. You are also completely right about the card-dis-advantage problem of this deck. Welding Tops is nice, but flimsy, like everything relying on Welder.
- You are right about CB, its very mana intense. It also stresses the manabase with UU cost. It might still be good, simply because it is so powerful.

Some possible changes to your list:
- Have you tried the 4th Mox Opal? While legendary, it is one of the most powerful cards in the deck / reasons to play this deck / benefits over other decks. With "new" legend rule redundant Moxens are also not that bad as before. They can also act as a enabler for Welder. A problem that arises more often than you think (you addition of Dack reflects that).
- Consider the 4th SDT. It is mana hungry, but insanely synergistic with the deck (e.g. Mox enabler, Welder draw engine) and an important way to smooth draws, as we don't have Ponder.

Future additions / cards to consider:
- Misdirection is a very powerful card, especially in the face of Abrupt Decay. Misdirecting removal is also card equality / slows down their clock. It also completely crushes BUG decks, as it is a house against Hymn and Ancestral besides AD. It is maybe also the closest replacement for Mental Misstep, as it allows the deck to keep its agility. A very important point in my opinion and sadly overlooked in some proposed lists.
- Welding Jar is also a card to consider. It is less versatile than Misdirection, but adds to the (free) artifact count, which can be important for some lists (I did run a Thoughtcast Painter list). It is also another way to handle AD. Spellskite does this as well, but it is very clunky, compared to the previous to cards.
- Izzet Charm is a very interesting cards for this deck. It made an appearance in the recent gp t8 reanimator list and could work similar in this deck. It enables Welder and most importantly kills DRS. The build in Spell Pierce mode is also very relevant, because our protection pre-painter is otherwise a bit thin. I like to not run too many Blast effects g1 and add them in different quantity, depending on the match up. I agree with your comment about Thoughtseize. It is versatile, but we have stronger options between Misdirection, Izzet Charm on top of Fow and Blast.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Hey, thanks for the detailed answers That nice guy! Some remarks:
- TA is only card disadvantage if it resolves and thus a way to make use of redundant effects. But you are right that FoW pitching does the same. TA tutoring for specific board cards is one advantage, but you solve it by having TA in the board as well, so this is covered too. You are also completely right about the card-dis-advantage problem of this deck. Welding Tops is nice, but flimsy, like everything relying on Welder.
- You are right about CB, its very mana intense. It also stresses the manabase with UU cost. It might still be good, simply because it is so powerful.

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Yeah, it can be game-breaking when TA resolves and whatever you search up gets eaten by Decay. :mad:

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Some possible changes to your list:
- Have you tried the 4th Mox Opal? While legendary, it is one of the most powerful cards in the deck / reasons to play this deck / benefits over other decks. With "new" legend rule redundant Moxens are also not that bad as before. They can also act as a enabler for Welder. A problem that arises more often than you think (you addition of Dack reflects that).

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Awesome suggestion! I've been trying to figure out how to do this for a long time now. The problem is knowing what to cut and decisions like this take A LOT of testing. Currently on the chopping block are tomb and city. I just need more data to figure this out.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

- Consider the 4th SDT. It is mana hungry, but insanely synergistic with the deck (e.g. Mox enabler, Welder draw engine) and an important way to smooth draws, as we don't have Ponder.

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Must. ... Go. .... FASTER! Your points are valid, I'm just not ready to slow down the flow of haymakers and give my opponent time to breath.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Future additions / cards to consider:
- Misdirection is a very powerful card, especially in the face of Abrupt Decay. Misdirecting removal is also card equality / slows down their clock. It also completely crushes BUG decks, as it is a house against Hymn and Ancestral besides AD. It is maybe also the closest replacement for Mental Misstep, as it allows the deck to keep its agility. A very important point in my opinion and sadly overlooked in some proposed lists.

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Misdirection is one of my all-time favorite cards. Another consideration for the SB that hasn't made the cut. In the main it's dead against some decks. And in the side it's just less valuable than other must-have options. This makes me truly sad.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

- Welding Jar is also a card to consider. It is less versatile than Misdirection, but adds to the (free) artifact count, which can be important for some lists (I did run a Thoughtcast Painter list). It is also another way to handle AD. Spellskite does this as well, but it is very clunky, compared to the previous to cards.

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I honestly never considered this. I turpentined so many of these to make vintage/cube mox proxies in my youth. I've been trying to jam thoughcast for a while now, and I think this is how it's done. So thank you for the suggestion. I don't really fear AD, I fear swords and Terminus, and this card does nothing against those. Still, it makes a 4Opal-Thoughtcast list viable which excites me. I will test for data.
The prior problem I had when trying thoughtcast was getting the right cards at the right time. :frown:

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Originally Posted by deadlock

- Izzet Charm is a very interesting cards for this deck. It made an appearance in the recent gp t8 reanimator list and could work similar in this deck. It enables Welder and most importantly kills DRS. The build in Spell Pierce mode is also very relevant, because our protection pre-painter is otherwise a bit thin. I like to not run too many Blast effects g1 and add them in different quantity, depending on the match up. I agree with your comment about Thoughtseize. It is versatile, but we have stronger options between Misdirection, Izzet Charm on top of Fow and Blast.

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Everyone always suggests this, but I still hold that having versatility is not worth having all the things it does be overcosted or watered down.

As I walk through the valley of the shadow of Wizards I shall fear no evil, for Red Blast is with me!

Red blast is the greatest most versatile answer anyone could ever want. Abrupt Decay? F you, REB targeting Delver! That'll buy me time. You can't misdirect, or welding Jar a counterbalance. And sometimes Izzet Charm is a bit mana intensive or late to the party. It's so hard to consider any card when you can run more vindicates that double as counterspells for 1 red mana.

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,


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I agree! The problem is that I knew I was going into a heavy Death and Taxes/UW meta, and I was worried about MUD. This was purely an essential meta choice. I would not have done well without him. I stole 2 Jitte's, a Sword of Fire and ICE, 2 mox diamond (with bloodmoon out), I messed with top/counterbalance, he saved a lot of swings at my face, and I even stole a chalice on 1 which I turned into a 5/5 to block forever. He also made the 4 welder amazing all day during game 1s.

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This was really good feedback. Although I see a good amount of counterbalance in my meta, I always anticipate to see a lot of tarmogoyf and tempo decks. I want to see what I can get out of 2 Baleful Strix in the main. Going to have to shave something for a 2nd underground sea or an opal.