Modern Banned List

Personally I believe that WoTC royally #$%@ the pooch with modern. WoTC decided to have a new format for the MOCC's where Wizards gets its ass handed on a silver platter back to them. They introduced this format here

HTML Code:

---

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144

---

and as stated in the article was an experiment. Why then do you have a ban list. Why bother with going that far at all. We all know from high school science that to get good results with so many variables you must first have a large enough sample to have a controlled base. But i digress with that part what I am truly up in arms about is the banning following the MOCC. It is like WoTC said "hey we've been doing this for almost 20 years. We know how to make a good healthy format that is fun to play. We don't need any points of data to determine how this format would play out at all. We'll just make it in between standard and legacy. Any cards that dominates legacy that can be played in this new format we'll ban and anything that dominates standard we'll ban. Bam instant great format." That isn't what has happened though. WoTC has continually added to the ban list while unbanning 1 card. Now i don't want all the modern players up in arms of this saying I just don't like how modern is so diverse I can't do broken things like i can in legacy. Trust me your format is not diverse at all. When most of your decks have evolved into either an off shoot of Jund, Jund itself, some sort of pod deck, affinity, or splinter twin constantly in your top 8's and 16's your format isn't diverse. Look at legacy top 8's and 16's and tell me we are not diverse.

I think most, if not all, Modern players can agree that Legacy is a more diverse format. In my humble opinion Legacy will always be the pinnacle of Magic constructed play. Modern is slightly more diverse than Standard but not as diverse as Legacy. This seems natural to me given the differences in the card pool size.

You basically named the tier decks in your post, which is fine, but there are plenty of different competitive decks in Modern.

Currently, I would put it this way (at my local level):

Tier 1
Jund
B/G Good Stuff
Affinity
Merfolk
Pod (Melira or Kiki)
UWR Control
G/R Tron
Splinter Twin
Junk

Tier 2
RDW
Boros Sligh
Mono-Black Discard (2 variants, one using The Rack/Shrieking Affliction and the other using Inkmoth/Phyrexian Crusader/infect as a win/con)
Mono-Blue Tron
U/B Tezzerator


Tier 3+
Death Cloud
4C Gifts
Ad Nauseam

You have all pillars represented, wih the least represented one being control (true control anyways.) There are plenty of other good decks that simply don't see play in my local area (G/W Hatebears, Martyr.dec, AggroLoam, UR Delver)

I think the format is diverse enough to capture most folks attention, especially people that don't have the cash to enter Legacy but want to play a deeper format. If they have been squirreling away standard staples then they are decently prepared for the format as well, especially considering the recent reprint of the shocklands.

I'd put Merfolk in tier 2, but that's just me. I think the banned list allows Modern to be Super Standard. If cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Jace were playable in Modern, it'd essentially be Legacy Lite. I sorta prefer Super Standard as true Legacy is a unique experience I don't want to be poorly imitated by Modern.

I know I'm a little late to the party, but any thoughts on DRS getting the ban-hammer? I haven't played Modern for a while, so I'd like to hear what some of you gentlemen think.

Quote:

---

When most of your decks have evolved into either an off shoot of Jund, Jund itself, some sort of pod deck, affinity, or splinter twin constantly in your top 8's and 16's your format isn't diverse. Look at legacy top 8's and 16's and tell me we are not diverse.

---

Cannot argue against those diverse Delver, Blade and SnT variants...

:wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maritlage

Now i don't want all the modern players up in arms of this saying I just don't like how modern is so diverse I can't do broken things like i can in legacy. Trust me your format is not diverse at all. When most of your decks have evolved into either an off shoot of Jund, Jund itself, some sort of pod deck, affinity, or splinter twin constantly in your top 8's and 16's your format isn't diverse. Look at legacy top 8's and 16's and tell me we are not diverse.

---

So your argument is that Modern is not diverse because you see some of the same decks consistently do well. So by your argument, no format is diverse, because that's true of every single format. Legacy certainly isn't diverse by your metric, as we certainly see a whole lot of the same decks over and over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Imperial

I know I'm a little late to the party, but any thoughts on DRS getting the ban-hammer? I haven't played Modern for a while, so I'd like to hear what some of you gentlemen think.

---

There was some discussion of it back after GP Detroit where Jund variants managed to be 75% of the Top 8, but the GPs since have been a lot better in diversity so it's died down a bit. I do think it's probably the most bannable card in Jund, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

So your argument is that Modern is not diverse because you see some of the same decks consistently do well. So by your argument, no format is diverse, because that's true of every single format. Legacy certainly isn't diverse by your metric, as we certainly see a whole lot of the same decks over and over.


There was some discussion of it back after GP Detroit where Jund variants managed to be 75% of the Top 8, but the GPs since have been a lot better in diversity so it's died down a bit. I do think it's probably the most bannable card in Jund, though.

---

The way I look at it, the individual cards in Jund lists aren't currently ban-worthy. Still, I'm glad to see that the meta has settled down; I might actually have to get back into modern. :tongue:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Cannot argue against those diverse Delver, Blade and SnT variants...

:wink:

---

Hey man, those Delver decks are diverse. Some use white with their RU and some use black with their RU. That's F'n diverse.

The ban list update coming soon I'm interested to what people think are coming on/off the list. I'm hopeful for some liberal unbannings to open up the format more. Ancestral Visions and Bitterblossom both seem fine if nactl comes off the list as well. I'm hoping at least preordain comes off too.

There's no one card I really want to see banned, the format would gain more from unbannings than it would from just continuing to neuter the top few decks.

I'm personally hoping for Preordain as it would have a small but measurable effect on the decks I currently play.

I also think that Stoneforge Mystic is pretty safe, especially since Jitte is also banned.

I don't think they'll unban Bitterblossom, mostly because no one really wants that deck back...even though it would probably be fine in terms of the format.

Wild Nacatl never made sense in the first place, so that one could come off too...though I think if they're going to go down that route they should throw the "control" decks a bone with Preordain or Ancestral Visions as you suggested.

As for what I would like to see banned, I don't think there's really anything. I agree that the format would gain more from some unbannings, especially if those have some effect on reining in the more established archetypes like Twin, Affinity, and Jund. If there's one thing the format needs, it's more variety among "tier 1" decks.

In a format where Sword of X and Y + Batterskull exist, I do not want to see Stoneforge Mystic unbanned.

Cards that are obviously not coming off because of various combos or raw power level on their own: Ancestral Vision, Ancient Den, Bitterblossom, Blazing Shoal, Chrome Mox, Cloudpost, Dark Depths, Dread Return, Glimpse of Nature, Great Furnace, Hypergenesis, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Mental Misstep, Punishing Fire, Rite of Flame, Seat of the Synod, Second Sunrise, Seething Song, Sensei's Divining Top, Stoneforge Mystic, Skullclamp, Sword of the Meek, Tree of Tales, Umezawa's Jitte, Vault of Whispers

That leaves:

• Bloodbraid Elf - Only recently banned. I don't see us getting this back any time soon.
• Golgari Grave-Troll - I really don't see the problem. Dredge is not an issue without Dread Return. Yes, it's a good Creature, but does anyone seriously believe it's better than just a Goyf? Hell, it might even make Graveyard strategies viable again!
• Green Sun's Zenith - Honestly, the only true reason I see this on the list is because of Dryad Arbor. Maybe this level of card selection is too much for Modern, but it's not like you're doing anything truly degenerate with it, and it'd make Elves viable again. (Also Druids.)
• Ponder/Preordain - One of these should come back. They make combo better, but they make control viable. It'd also be nice to see Delver back as a legitimate deck, and see Young Pyromancer take over a PT.
• Wild Nacatl - A 1-mana 3/3 is not an issue any more. It costs a lot of life to get there, and it 'forcing' you into Naya isn't an argument when Deathrite Shaman is in the format.

The only card I see getting a ban is Deathrite Shaman. I have stated my disdain for this card in Modern time and again. This card is too powerful. It is a Burn that is also a 2/2 Unblockable and life gain Spell. It destroys Graveyard strategies on its own. It is a 1-mana Planeswalker. Aside from this it's something completely out of frame like a ban of all five fetchlands or something else insane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [SLAYER]chaos

The ban list update coming soon I'm interested to what people think are coming on/off the list. I'm hopeful for some liberal unbannings to open up the format more. Ancestral Visions and Bitterblossom both seem fine if nactl comes off the list as well. I'm hoping at least preordain comes off too.

There's no one card I really want to see banned, the format would gain more from unbannings than it would from just continuing to neuter the top few decks.

---

There are only two decks I can see getting a ban: Jund (for being everywhere) or Griselcannon (for pulling off faster-than-turn-4 wins). I don't think either is likely to do so. Jund isn't as powerful as it was when Bloodbraid Elf got the ban, and Griselcannon, while able to win faster than turn 4, isn't a Tier 1 deck (the rule is you can't consistently win before turn 4 in a top-level deck). Though if either got a ban, I'd predict Deathrite Shaman in Jund and Goryo's Vengeance in Griselcannon.

I think unbannings are much more likely. Here are some cards I think might come off:
Golgari Grave-Troll: This card being banned is even more of a joke than Land Tax. It would, at best, elevate a Tier 3 deck or two to Tier 2. The only reasons I can think of for why it's still banned is either Wizards is that terrified of Dredge, or they don't want to unban it unless they're unbanning something else (because no one's going to get excited about this card being unbanned). If it's the latter, it could be combined with another unban.

Ancestral Vision: Drawing three cards on turn 5 is a heck of a lot less powerful than winning the game on turn 4. Cascade is irrelevant, not only because the cascade cards all suck on their own (are you going to play Ardent Plea so you can cast Concentrate for one less mana?), but Living End and even Restore Balance are way better cards to structure cascade around. Second, control has been on the down low for a while. Though control did get a Top 16 finish at the Grand Prix and a UWR Midrange deck won the whole thing, so they might hesitate on that now (no idea if Midrange would be interested in the card, though).

Bitterblossom: Control has been on the down low for a while, but it at least was doing okay earlier last year. The decks this card would be best in are BW Tokens and Faeries, both of which are like Tier 2.5 decks right now and have been since 2012 ended. I've seen a few arguments that Jund might play it (and thus it would be a bad unban, as Jund doesn't need to be more popular than it already is), but I'm not really sure it would be that great in Jund.

Sword of the Meek: Splinter Twin can win the game off of two cards and has redundancy in its combo. Sword of the Meek does not win you the game on the spot (it makes it way harder for your opponent to win, but it isn't an immediate win like Splinter Twin) and does not have redundancy. The combo can't even really be fully assembled into Turn 4 as well; if you cast Thopter Foundry on turn 2 and Sword of the Meek on turn 3, you can't do anything more than make a 2/3 token and gain one life before turn 4. Even if we consider the game unwinnable once it's able to start really using mana to make a wall of blockers and gain life, it can't do that until turn 4. Of course, the point with ThopterSword is not to "win" on turn 4, but instead to have it as an eventual win condition in a control shell. This does not seem more overpowered than what is already in the format. Artifact hate and graveyard hate are both common enough in the format that I do not think this would be a problem. The common argument against it is that it makes things hard for aggro decks, which are already struggling in the format outside of Affinity, but the counterargument is that those aggro decks aren't great to begin with, so it's not like we're pushing out decks that are competitive to begin with. Merfolk has been on the rise lately, but that deck seems rather adept at ignoring the combo thanks to things like islandwalk.

Those are the cards I think are most likely to be unbanned. There are a few others I think are less likely, but still possible:

Wild Nacatl: At the time, Zoo was really really good, and a ban for it might have been necessary. But as many have pointed out, a big reason for that was likely Punishing Fire, as Zoo was able to withstand it due to their creatures having 3+ toughness. Whether or not Wild Nacatl needed to be banned on top of Punishing Fire is hard to determine because they banned them both simultaneously. A point against this being unbanned is the fact that it was banned after the initial banned list, and thus to a certain extent had "its chance" in the format, unlike the three I already mentioned, which were banned before the format even existed and were banned on almost complete speculation.

Preordain: It's highly questionable whether both Preordain and Ponder needed to be banned or if just Ponder would suffice. The biggest issue with this card is that Splinter Twin is a Tier 1 deck with some good finishes (including a recent Grand Prix win), and this slots straight into that to make it better. Still, it may come off anyway with the rationale that it benefits control/tempo enough that it would correspondingly not strengthen combo decks like Splinter Twin. Additionally, like Wild Nacatl, it was banned after the format was created and more concrete data was available, giving them less incentive to think "maybe we were wrong about this?"

Of course, there's also the strong possibility they'll do absolutely nothing and the format will chug on with no changes.

Please unban preordain. I found 20 in a box earlier in the week and put them aside

Unless they feel like stirring up the metagame before a PTQ-season I don't think they will touch the list this time.

@LordSeth

This is what I've been pissing in the wind about. If I'm just randomly dead to shift or twin on turn 4, or even the nut pod draw into resto jiki then why are other turn 4-5 combo cards (Sword) banned? Or other slow attrition cards like Visions, Bitterblossom, Troll (again dread return is banned) banned? Nacatyl is also good, but there's a bunch of bolt running around and you can't say it's more ubiquitous than DRS is right now.

I'm guessing nothing will be banned. PTQ season is coming up and not too far from now GPs too. The format isn't horribly unbalanced and they gave their token unbannings out already (Hey look everyone-who-makes-fun-of-us-for-banning-repeatedly, we unban things too! Have Valakut boring-as-****-combo back!).

Most deserving of a ban is Deathrite Shaman due to it's ability to accelerate every deck while giving them a pretty decent clock and controlling graveyard shenanigans. These aren't as bad as the unfun turn 2 on the play Liliana, which honestly is the only reason it would deserve to be taken out. Turn 2 Liliana behind Birds of Paradise isn't nearly as scary. I don't see them banning it right now because of 1) ridicule for how many things they ban and how many times they've had to do it, and 2) suppressing graveyard shenanigans is usually exactly what they want to do, which is why I never expect to see GGT come off the ban list.

Bands are done based on a decks power.
Jund is putting up numbers, but it's only cuz most of the meta game is Jund...
Affinity was the deck with the most numbers for day 2 at the GP. But by the end, was no where to be seen.
Jund is popular cuz it sits well vrs most decks. So the average "end boss" good player can pick the deck up, and poop on noobs all day. Wile the noobs pick it up, and pick bad lines of play, and lose.
Nothing will get band, DRS is good. Not broken.
And any goyo deck is a pile of luck draws.
Bitterblossem WILL NEVER BE UNBAND, sorry that card is way too good. (if they ever do, it will auto win PT)
Visions will not get unband. 3 color blue good stuff decks (rwu geist example) that are all one for ones, bolt, helix, leak. Will now be able to auto win after it resolves. You can't fight a deck after they draw 3 cards on turn 5.
Ponder- would break twin, shift, delver, storm. Basically all blue decks. Not happening.
Same for preodain. If they unbanned it, the top decks will ALL be blue.

They won't consider the hammer, until after PT. They will see how a meta of good players, takes modern. This will determine the meta for the next year-ish

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Unless they feel like stirring up the metagame before a PTQ-season I don't think they will touch the list this time.

---

Actually, the Modern PTQ season is delayed this year. After the current Standard season (which ends in March), there will be a Sealed season, and THEN we move to Modern. As each PTQ season is about three months (as there's four of them per year now), I think the Modern PTQ season starts in like June or something. If they want to unban something and not do it shortly before a PTQ season, they either have to do it now or wait until late 2013.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sublime love

Bitterblossem WILL NEVER BE UNBAND, sorry that card is way too good. (if they ever do, it will auto win PT)

---

How is it way too good? Lingering Souls gives you tokens way faster. Let's compare...
Turn 3: Bitterblossom gives you one token and you lose a life. Lingering Souls gives you two tokens.
Turn 4: Bitterblossom gives you a second token and you have lost two life. Lingering Souls gives you four tokens. Note also that you can attack with one Bitterblossom token but two Lingering Souls tokens.
Turn 5: Bitterblossom gives you a third token and you've lost three life, only two of which can attack. Lingering Souls has given you four tokens, all of which can attack.
Turn 6: Bitterblossom gives you a fourth token and you've lost four life, only three of which can attack. Lingering Souls has given you four tokens, all of which can attack.
Turn 7: Bitteblossom gives you a fifth token, FINALLY giving you more than Lingering Souls, though you've lost five life to do so. At this point you can attack with four Bitterblossom tokens, equal to four Lingering Souls tokens.
Turn 8: At this point, Bitterblossom is actually stronger, letting you attack with five tokens versus Lingering Soul's four. However, you've lost 6 life and have had to wait until Turn 8 for this to happen.

So Bitterblossom takes much longer to pay off AND requires you to lose life to work. And notice that in terms of later game topdecks, Lingering Souls can give you 4 tokens on the spot whereas Bitterblossom requires 5 turns (and 5 life) to do that.

In a format where Lingering Souls exists, it seems very difficult to argue that Bitterblossom is "way too good." Now, to be fair, Bitterblossom does have an edge that Lingering Souls does not: Its power with Faeries. But is even that too powerful? A number of people have tried to test out possible new builds with Bitterblossom and have found them lacking compared to the other decks in the format. This is to say nothing of the cards recently printed that are quite powerful against Faeries. For example, the deck has real issues trying to beat Voice of Resurgence, and Abrupt Decay of course is a great way to smash Bitterblossom. You can't just claim it's "way too good"; you need a real argument for it that doesn't rely on it being allegedly too good in a format that had a quite different card pool than Modern.

Quote:

---

Visions will not get unband. 3 color blue good stuff decks (rwu geist example) that are all one for ones, bolt, helix, leak. Will now be able to auto win after it resolves. You can't fight a deck after they draw 3 cards on turn 5.

---

All right. How about the inability to fight a deck after they win the game on turn 4? The fact that people somehow think that winning the game on turn 4 is A-OK but drawing three cards on turn 5 is too powerful baffles me. And, of course, Ancestral Vision is a do-nothing topdeck if drawn later in the game.

Quote:

---

Ponder- would break twin, shift, delver, storm. Basically all blue decks. Not happening.

---

Storm, Scapeshift, and Delver could actually really use a boost right now, especially Storm. It would be rather degenerate in Twin decks, though.

Quote:

---

Same for preodain. If they unbanned it, the top decks will ALL be blue.

---

Now this I disagree with. Preordain is good, but it's not in the same league as Ponder, and I'd say it would actually power up some decks that need a power boost (e.g. Scapeshift, Delver of Secrets, and Storm). Its biggest issue is that Splinter Twin is already really great and would benefit from it, though not even close to the extent that Ponder would.

Also, it's "ban" and "banned", not "band". A "band" is a group and an old confusing Magic mechanic, and has nothing to do with a card being banned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

So Bitterblossom takes much longer to pay off AND requires you to lose life to work. And notice that in terms of later game topdecks, Lingering Souls can give you 4 tokens on the spot whereas Bitterblossom requires 5 turns (and 5 life) to do that.

---

You need to consider all types of cost if you're going to do a flat out comparison like that. BB cost you 5 life and 5 turns vs Souls costing 0 life and 2 turns. But BB costs 1B while Souls costs you 3WB in that scenario. Given people are willing to pay 3 life to get an untapped shock of your choice on turn 1 in this format, mana can potentially be more valuable than life, so that 5 life required for Blossom to pay off may be worth less than the extra 2W depending on the deck. BB also leaves you open to cast business or counterspells on turns 3/4 whereas using Souls like that taps down your mana both those main phases. Mana cost and tempo matter just like life and turns. Notably, Lingering Souls is harder to cast in a deck that wants to play counterspells that cost 1UUU.

Souls is definitely a better topdeck, and if just looking at BW tokens deck and no others, Souls is probably better overall for all its flexibility. There's a reason Souls get played more in Legacy even though both are legal. The thing is, BW tokens isn't why BB is banned.

So why is BB banned? It's of type "Faerie" and makes things of type "Faerie". Faerie decks don't care about spirit tokens. And you only have to tap out mainphase of turn 2 to play it and then you never have to commit mainphase mana again, which is amazing for a UB control deck. It alone lets you Spellstutter @ 2, 1U for Spell Snare+Mental Misstep and a 1/1 flying body. Including the tokens, you can Spellstutter @ infinity, which is pretty amazing. The tokens also benefit from one of the best lords ever printed (Flash +shroud seems good) and kind of kill you while the Faerie player spends the next 5 turns countering everything you try to do.

Ancestral Visions is mediocre in general, but it's amazing in a deck that wants to go T1 Visions, T2 Blossom, T3 counter stuff, T4 counter stuff + draw, T5 Ancestral recall? cool, counter more stuff.