This is correct but was not my suggestion. Cc1 removal is replaced by snuff out atm which is 100% faster than demise. Also strix is 30% faster than scm and agent takes profit from it while being 25% faster.
Printable View
This is correct but was not my suggestion. Cc1 removal is replaced by snuff out atm which is 100% faster than demise. Also strix is 30% faster than scm and agent takes profit from it while being 25% faster.
Yeah, but you're playing free removal that costs you a significant chunk of your life, which is really bad against aggro. Also, against Aggro decks, I don't want to cascade into Hymn - cascading into removal is great because you're removing one of their threats that are on the board and buying yourself more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiley85
My problem with Strix against aggro is that it doesn't necessarily kill one of their guys. If they use a removal spell on it, yes you've gained some card advantage, but you also haven't killed one of their guys, which is generally more important when fighting aggro.
Again, even in the worst case scenerio of having to cascade on T3 with no setup, your odds of hitting a Snapcaster are very low since the original list only plays 2.
No doubt you're allowing everything else to stick unless you have Force of Will. I was just saying though that generally speaking, I'm more afraid of a T1 Lackey than a T1 Mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
If they have the nut hand of T1 Mother, T2 Thalia then sure that's rough on your Deed hand. It's really the T2 Thalia protected by Mother that's rough on you. If they don't have Thalia, you're generally going to still have time to Deed them out.
This list is one of those control lists where I think actually keeping in FoW against Aggro is correct even though it goes against conventional wisdom for boarding blue control decks.
That being said, as in my post above, I also would not remove ALL the Ghastly Demises, keeping like 2-3 in the 75 just in case you do have to still deal with those T1 Mother/Lackeys.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
I'm not certain that 4x Abrupt Decay is correct. I'm looking at maybe 2-3 in the 75?
Try it out. 4 x Abrupt Decay is amazing. Being uncounterable is a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I think I am going to change my list to sneak in Baleful Strix.
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+4 Baleful Strix
Just to see what happens.
Don't get me wrong, I think Abrupt Decay is amazing too. I just think it serves a slightly different purpose than Ghastly Demise (and other 1 mana / free removal spells) do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zalren
Imo, Abrupt Decay is for fighting the blue tempo decks / decks with black creatures whereas Ghastly Demise is for fighting faster aggro decks or decks that play Mother of Runes.
I revisited the Shardless version, removing the Snapcasters, Jaces, and Vendilion Cliques and replacing with Baleful Strix, Scavenging Ooze and Wrench Minds. What I found is that this deck needs more 1- and 2-drops that actually help. So far my testing has been friggin' dynamite and I have a win rate 11-3.
For the record I am not bragging - this could be a great streak of luck, but it could mean that this deck has potential in some metas. Here are my wins and losses, as well as notes for how I achieved each win. Overall note: Ancestral Visions and Tarmogoyf are ridiculous in this deck, with or without cascading into them, and played a huge factor in almost every win on this list. For a deck that does a great job stalling, a first-turn (fourth-turn-unanswered) Visions is absolutely devastating to your opponent. I've had a few games where a mid-game Vision grabbed me a Tarmogoyf (which lands at 5/6 or 6/7), Hymn, and Shardless Agent and I had enough land to cast everything.
Wins:
U/W Stoneblade (Hymn + enough creature kill)
U/W Miracles (Deed does it)
BUW Stoneblade (Hymn)
GWB Junk/Rock (Hymn)
RUG Canadian Thresh (creature kill, plus "uncounterable" cascade)
Maverick (creature kill, Strix)
Monoblack Control (Hymn, FoW, Visions)
Death & Taxes (Deed)
Goblins (Creature kill, Deed, Tarmogoyf, Strix)
Red/Black Land Destruction (deck runs 24+ lands)
Affinity (Artifact Lands can't stand up to a Deed)
Losses:
- Monored Burn (not much of an answer because this deck plays the long game, hence the Chills in the SB.
- Charbelcher with Reforge the Soul (could have been just unlucky for me, my Hymns helped a lot until opponent topdecked RtS.
- Doomsday (if you play a deck that runs the "long game" with only one real counter (FoW), Doomsday is a real pain)
Here's my tweaked decklist. I keep on tweaking as I find it needs it. Also, I haven't had a single problem running 3 basics (Island, Swamp, Forest). This deck needs one thing: consistency. I found this sorely missing by having 2x Jace, 2x Snapcaster, and 2x Vendilion Clique. After making these adjustments, the deck runs great.
Also, this deck is more Aggro-Control, yes?
// Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top
// Creatures
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
// Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
// Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict
// Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Wrench Mind
// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
//Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Cursed Totem
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
3 Thoughseize
2 Chill
Went 2-2 this past weekend with DeMars' original Shardless list.
Lost to Maverick (my own build I was lending to my friend that was more anti-control due to our meta) and to a rogue UB tempo Stifle-naught list.
Most of my losses came from simply missing land drops (Top / Brainstorm, see no lands - doh!). Generally speaking, I feel that if we make our first 3-4 land drops, I feel like we're in really good shape and have a tough time losing as long as we've been playing disruption as well.
I've been having a real tough time trying to decide what I want to take out to fit in Abrupt Decay.
As I've been playing the deck more, I've actually been liking the Krosan Grips in the board, especially against the Uw control decks. Gripping their Top really hurts a lot of that deck's strategy and really lowers their effectiveness since they can't take advantage of all their shuffle effects and you don't have to worry about Terminus / Entreat on your turn when you're attacking.
I've been looking at doing -1 Ghastly Demise / +1 Abrupt Decay main and -1 Ghastly, -1 GFTT / +2 Abrupt Decay in the side for now?
Okay, so I like where you are taking the deck. I am not sure about the low number of one-drops though. It seems like if you are on the draw and keep a hand without much action, you can very quickly get run over by an aggressive start by your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Given the high density of color requirements, I wonder if Wasteland is really needed, or at least as 4 copies. This isn't based on any testing, but given how the deck tends to go later in the game, it may make sense to cut them for additional colored sources and maybe run 1 Dust Bowl as a method of getting rid of utility lands.
The sideboard looks interesting, but I am not so sure about Relic over Nihil Spellbomb. Relic is nice early in the game, but against certain decks where you -need- GY hate, I think Nihil may just be better while not shrinking your own Tarmogoyfs.
Vendilion Clique is definitely worth reconsidering, especially against control and combo. Clique functions as an additional disruptive element to go along with your discard. I would probably still play 1 or 2 copies somewhere in the 75, possible in the Wrench Mind slots.
I think it goes without saying that Abrupt Decay definitely needs to be considered once RtR is legal.
Finally, I would definitely want to reconsider adding at least 1 Jace back into the deck somewhere, possibly in the SB againt grinding matchups.
Just played this past weekend with some friends. Casual, not tournament play, but they all use decks taken off the internet. Plus we have been playing for 15 years together, so we are pretty good (I think). Using this list:
Lands - 23
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Swamp
1 x Academy Ruins
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Bayou
2 x Tropical Island
3 x Underground Sea
Enchantments - 3
3 x Pernicious Deed
Creatures - 12
4 x Shardless Agent
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Baleful Strix
Artifacts - 1
1 x Engineered Explosives
Planeswalkers - 5
2 x Lilianna of the Veil
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells - 16
4 x Abrupt Decay (proxy to try them out)
4 x Ancestral Visions
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Hymn to Tourach
I never lost a game. I played against U/W Miracles, Nic Fit, Berserk Stompy, and White Weenie.
Planeswalkers are a must, I believe. They are just so powerful. Also Ancestral Vision is crazy good. I really want to take this list to a tournament but hardly any Legacy in my area.
The cards we're concerned about turn 1 are Lackey, Vial, and Mom. On the draw I hope to keep a hand with FoW and another blue card, or ghastly demise. But there within lies the problem - what other one-drops or free spells are there that can answer those things on the draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I've been pretty happy with the manabase (even with the 3 basics) and have been wastelocked only in a G1 against RUG. The only time I ever have problems are looking for BB for Hymn and Wrench Mind. I've been very happy with Wasteland, it works as well as it does in Maverick in this deck.Quote:
Note taken, I am going to switch out for Nihil Spellbombs - at least they cycle too.Quote:
The sideboard looks interesting, but I am not so sure about Relic over Nihil Spellbomb. Relic is nice early in the game, but against certain decks where you -need- GY hate, I think Spellbomb may just be better while not shrinking your own Tarmogoyfs.
I found myself never needing or casting Clique, since you can't cascade into it. Don't get me wrong, I love Clique, I just think that for the synergy in this deck it's unncessary. I'd rather have more 1-drop disruption (Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, or Duress). But I'll give them a shot - they might help in the Omni-Show matchups.Quote:
Vendilion Clique is definitely worth reconsidering, especially against control and combo. Clique functions as an additional disruptive element to go along with your discard. I would probably still play 1 or 2 copies somewhere in the 75, possible in the Wrench Mind slots.
Agreed. It will be part of the 75 and will probably replace the Wrench Minds. Keep in mind, the only reason I use Wrench Mind is because for the matches where you really need to empty someone's hand (Burn, Charbelcher, Storm), they really help extend the help you're already getting from Hymn. I have re-fallen in love with Hymn.Quote:
I think it goes without saying that Abrupt Decay definitely needs to be considered once RtR is legal.
Similar to the Cliques, I found myself never landing a Jace and think it just takes up space. Also, I love Jace (and use him in my normal BUG Control as my main win-con). As extra control, removal of opposing Jaces, or an extra win-con I can understand, as sweepers like Terminus can hurt us a bit (since the deck is more aggro) and with the printing of Supreme Verdict may make this deck less viable. I'm torn on this one.Quote:
Finally, I would definitely want to reconsider adding at least 1 Jace back into the deck somewhere, possibly in the SB against grinding matchups.
EDIT: Throwing V-Cliques in again was a good idea. It's amazing against Omni-Show and SnT.
This deck doesn't seem to make much use of Jace. You already have enough card advantage so the brainstorm ability isn't that great and there can be better options as a finisher than his fateseal. If you are playing Jace for the creature bounce and as a finisher what about Vraska?
I bet I can win 7 or 8 games out of 10 with Goblins against you ;P
@bilb_o: Yeah, I'm looking forward to trying Vraska out once the dust has settled and she goes down in price. She's way overpriced right now.
@troopatroop: I'm not going to deny that Goblins has been one of the biggest challenges for many varieties of BUG, and would love to playtest against Goblins if you're up for it on Cockatrice. Goblins is huge in my meta - 2 out of 5 players play it in any given tournament. A win against Gobbos is very draw-dependent, but I will say I am happy with 9 out of 10 initial draws with this variety.
deathrite shaman seems way to good not to play..it i'm gunna test it
He's utility par excellence, can be played either aggressive against slow decks or controlish against fast decks. Ramp and lifegain in one card, also strong in early AND mid game.
The only issue is you always loose him to deed.
Against Aether Vials, we will soon be getting Abrupt Decay which will be fine since we'll have it online before they can really start dropping things with Vial. If we want, we can even use it to kill the Vials as well.
Ghastly is really there for Mother of Runes and Lackey when we're on the draw.
I personally have really liked Jace and sometimes wish for more. Of course, my meta is pretty infested with control right now. In the UW Miracles match, the Shardless version seems to win with 2 ways - grinding out card advantage with almost every spell and forcing them to Terminus or die with our threats or we can win the way the more controlling version does with Deed + Planeswalker.
I love strix!
If you want to play strix and ooze and goyf and shardless into stuff, maybe this deck is better off beeing a midrange deck with tons of card advantage and put the deeds to the sideboard for some transformation? (just thoughts - never played shardless)
heres my thinking...i thought well i played 2 ooze main for a minute then when i really got to know the deck i realized the only thing that we could do to make this deck better is to make it a turn faster..lotus petal and vet.explorer(with cabal therepy and innocent blood) both went through my mind..but this guy not only makes knight managable ,goyf worse gains life, ramps and makes reanimator (and anything realying on graveyards at all)worse...just seems like it might be woorth testing ..it dosn't really matter that deed wipes it out..if we drop jace turn three we don't NEED it anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiley85
also..
i like lilly in this deck as at least a two of and maybe three of. i like three deeds mainboard and three snapcasters..i think two is the rite number on lilly md..any way i think that the shamans ability to eat a fetch turn two for a lilly or deed or pulse is really good..and being able to do it next turn is amazing...those are my thoughts.:smile:
What.?Quote:
Originally Posted by metronome2charisma
On another note, anyone out there not playing the shardless variant? I'm still not sold on it, and haven't felt it giving me a leg up in any situation or versus any deck and my only attachment to Hymn is emotional, and not functional.
RE - OG Bug controll: I've upped my Mishra's count to 3 and my fetch count down to 7. All of my thoughtseizes have become Inquisitions -- I'm trying to do this thing called not helping my opponent kill me in one of the grindiest games imaginable. I'm still on 2 MD standstills which, if played well, are absolutely amazing.
Regarding Abrupt Decay. I'm not certain I'm going to change anything from the MD to accommodate the card, I really just dont think its worth the spots. Ghastly Demise and Innocent blood do the job just as well against things that we care about. However, I will be making room in my sideboard to fit two of them in there against randomshitIdon'twanttodealwith.dec
SB:
2 x Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 x Darkblast
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Ancient Grudge
2 x Abrupt Decay
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Relic of Progenitus // switching back and forth between this and Cage
1 x Damnation
In the limited testing I've done I saw that the Shardless agent version have the ability to just overpower sometimes. I don't know how exactly to describe the games but that's really what happens. I tested it against my mandatory High Tide and I saw that unless High Tide draws extremely bad and Shardless version can land Hymn after Hymn there's really no way that it can pull the game away, yet it can just go nuts in some games. It's certainly a strange deck, I really couldn't put my finger on it.
I mean, I won't disagree, having been on the receiving end of multiple hymns and the giving end of multiple hymns, the card is insane when you can forcibly jam them down people's throats. And mind you, I tested the hell out of the shardless version, perhaps it just wasn't 'for me' but its definitely a deck of its own, and one which I personally, don't think has much of a leg up against good ole BUG control.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o