Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
wow indeed! who needs brainstorm!? Not running Shallow Grave seems really odd.
Also, I can't say I agree that Spell Pierce is better than Pithing Needle in the sideboard. Needle can be pretty key against Deathrite Shaman, Ooze, Relic, Crypt, and even Sensei's Divining Top.
Wouldn't you rather just discard their hate T1 and win the following turn? If that doesn't work and the game goes longer, Spell Pierce becomes pretty bad. You really need a way to deal with the resolved permanents - we're not equipped to be able to fight on the stack over them.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
.dk
Also, I can't say I agree that Spell Pierce is better than Pithing Needle in the sideboard. Needle can be pretty key against Deathrite Shaman, Ooze, Relic, Crypt, and even Sensei's Divining Top.
Okay then what are the Massacre for? ...the Hurkyl's Recall seems really redundant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
.dk
Wouldn't you rather just discard their hate T1 and win the following turn?
Yeah if that is how it works I'd be really happy with that. You have no less change of doing that given my sample board less 2 mana sources. ...but now you also have the play of drop land pass turn. If they play some non-creature you don't like you counter it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
.dk
If that doesn't work and the game goes longer, Spell Pierce becomes pretty bad. You really need a way to deal with the resolved permanents - we're not equipped to be able to fight on the stack over them.
Given the nature of this deck it is my understanding the longer the game goes your chances of winning are less and less regardless. I thought this would give you more tools to fend off opposing discard, more tools to fight fast combo, as well as create a window to fend-off common yard hate to combo.
I just thought I'd bring it up for discussion. I think it warrants testing.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
Given the nature of this deck it is my understanding the longer the game goes your chances of winning are less and less regardless. I thought this would give you more tools to fend off opposing discard, more tools to fight fast combo, as well as create a window to fend-off common yard hate to combo.
I just thought I'd bring it up for discussion. I think it warrants testing.
Look man, Spell Pierce isn't what this deck wants. I've played a lot of different builds of Griselbrand storm in tournaments - I would wager more than anyone else on the planet (I know, niche micro-archetype, but still). I played 3 copies of Spell Pierce in the first versions of Count Chocula and got to the finals of 2 reasonably-sized GPTs. Eventually we realized discard is much, much better (and that's what I played in GP Atlanta). I played Pierce in some older builds of TinFins (see here). Again, we quickly realized that it's not what the deck is looking for. We have tested Pierce. Maybe not in this exact build, but the card doesn't actually do anything different now than what it did before.
Koby made some excellent points and is a very smart guy, he's worth listening to. We all appreciate suggestions (look at what an impact Dela made with suggesting Children of Korlis!), but at some point you really do have to accept that maybe the suggestion just isn't good.
In case you don't see his points, here's another analysis:
1. This deck needs to win quickly. It can't afford to lose tempo by leaving up reactive counters like Spell Pierce because you're not actively progressing the gameplan of winning. Going for it and discard are both proactively making them not "have it".
2. It's a very dead rip if the game ever goes long. There are enough of those already, at least discard is multi-purpose and Silence is always live.
3. If you've ever played against Miracles with Pierce, you should know that it's very easy for them to play around Pierce if they put you on it. They don't tap out on their turn that much!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
Those cards are meta calls and are in the board as much from momentum as anything else. Massacre is good against Maverick, Death & Taxes, and UW decks that turn fishy postboard (Meddling Mage, etc).
Hurkyl's Recall is obviously for Stax / Dragon Stompy / Moat Stompy (I'm looking at you, nedleeds :mad:). It may not be necessary if we're playing Abrupt Decay, but we're not sure if we should play Abrupt Decay.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
After I was on the wrong side of some Cavern of Soul Blowouts in Standard, has anyone already tested if Boseiju, Who Shelters All
fits in this deck? It is unfortunates that it comes into play tapped, can only produce colourless mana, and you need to pay life to make your instant and sorcerys uncounterable. But sometimes if you are desperate you need some desperate measures to fight back. Dealing with Rest in Peace should be much more easier if you don't need to worry about Counterbalance and Force of Will, and if you are able to protect your Shallow Grave as well it becomes less painfull if the Counterbalance is still in play after you dealed with the Rest in Peace. That Miracles in the recent builds don't attack your lands or your life before they already have taken over the game on the other side may help a Boseiju plan.
The decklist Koby linked looks a little bit like a "I don't have the cards" build. With Animate Dead winning on the Spot with Griselbrand seems a lot more unlikely than with regular TinFins. And yes no Brainstorm.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Falconer
The decklist Koby linked looks a little bit like a "I don't have the cards" build. With Animate Dead winning on the Spot with Griselbrand seems a lot more unlikely than with regular TinFins. And yes no Brainstorm.
The list is f$$$ amazing, because it's older than this thread and has 90% of the cards in it we're using now including the children...? ;-)
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Yea, that guy was a prophet. But he didn't have the brain wave to get his shallow out of his trunk when he saw Goryos.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Hi guys,
first of all, congrats to Koby for the result!
i've been thinking about picking this up and have had a lot of fun in testing. It's the first time of my legacy lifetime i play something else than control. And it's the first time i'm actually playing a combo deck aside from dredge. The issue i have is: What do i side out?
last match i played i wanted to side in P-needles and wipe away because my opponent was playing bant and had: ooze and ethersworn canonist. So what should i have taken out?
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Hello playing with the deck yesterday against blecher and have 1 question about children.
If I have 1 Children in play, and my opponent activates belcher can I go to negative life and sac children to get life back without lose the game? :really:
Thx
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
novatinhu
Hello playing with the deck yesterday against blecher and have 1 question about children.
If I have 1 Children in play, and my opponent activates belcher can I go to negative life and sac children to get life back without lose the game? :really:
Thx
Hi Novatinhu,
Children of Krolis Rulings:
9/25/2006 If your life total drops to 0 or less, it's too late to use this ability before losing the game.
9/25/2006 The life you gain is based on the total of all changes where your life total went down during the turn, not the net downward change. So if you lose 5 life, gain 3 life, and then lose 2 more life before activating this ability, the ability causes you gain 7 life, not 4.
Link: http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/ca...verseid=110525
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
novatinhu
can I go to negative life
really?
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
really?
And your coment add what? nothing, just the usual: "I KNOW EVERYTHING, I'M GOD FUCK YOU MORTALS!!!"
Anyway thx Dropsaway!
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
I have been thinking about some scenarios I've played against in tournaments. I've come to the conclusion that we can beat 1 piece of hate with relative ease, but nearly impossible when it's either compounded hate or hate piece + countermagic. Is it realistic to attempt to beat the latter situations without completely morphing the deck?
Example:
Is it realistic for Dredge to beat Leyline of the Void + Grafdigger's Cage played on the first turn?
Is it realistic for Tin Fins to beat Leyline of the Void + Chalice of the Void @ 1 on the first turn?
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
really?
With Me losing the game on the stack... Ill sac children and since Im not at negative life the losing the game gets countered. Duh
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
I have been thinking about some scenarios I've played against in tournaments. I've come to the conclusion that we can beat 1 piece of hate with relative ease, but nearly impossible when it's either compounded hate or hate piece + countermagic. Is it realistic to attempt to beat the latter situations without completely morphing the deck?
Example:
Is it realistic for Dredge to beat Leyline of the Void + Grafdigger's Cage played on the first turn?
Is it realistic for Tin Fins to beat Leyline of the Void + Chalice of the Void @ 1 on the first turn?
I think couter+hate(surgical or extirpate) can be handle without morhping the deck
For your exemple the hate is really strong, and in your case serenity seems golden ^^
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
novatinhu
And your coment add what? nothing, just the usual: "I KNOW EVERYTHING, I'M GOD FUCK YOU MORTALS!!!"
Anyway thx Dropsaway!
Your response might make more sense if he was taunting you over not knowing some obscure factoid about something very few people know about, but I don't think it's warranted when you ask a question that implies a misunderstanding of the most basic premise of the game: when your life total hits 0 you die. Even when you have a "You cannot lose the game" effect in play, you can't pay life you don't have (so if you are at 6, you cannot activate Griselbrand). There is no such thing as going into "negative life" that exists in magic.
A brief thought experiment you could have performed would have been to think about why no one had brought up your idea previously if it were possible? Like, if you -could- drop into negative life from Griselbrand, why is THAT not the #1 plan of the deck. Get Griselbrand out, go to -30 life, draw all but like 3 cards in your deck, then sac Children of Korlis to go back up to 20 or so and win. You'd think if that were possible that it would just be the default play for the deck, you know?
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
I have been thinking about some scenarios I've played against in tournaments. I've come to the conclusion that we can beat 1 piece of hate with relative ease, but nearly impossible when it's either compounded hate or hate piece + countermagic. Is it realistic to attempt to beat the latter situations without completely morphing the deck?
Example:
Is it realistic for Dredge to beat Leyline of the Void + Grafdigger's Cage played on the first turn?
Is it realistic for Tin Fins to beat Leyline of the Void + Chalice of the Void @ 1 on the first turn?
This is probably the most important discussion we can be having right now, and to answer: I don't really know that it is. The reason the deck is so consistent and generally able to play through countermagic game 1 is that we have a ton of redundancy built in. Multiple ways to bin Grizzlebees, plenty of ways to reanimate him, multiple win conditions. To bring in anti-hate means we're always watering some aspect down, unless we're completely switching gears, which is why we've tried so many transformational boards. Being reactive still seems like the best strategy so far, but it still feels like trading a GT-R for a Maxima. You're burning cantrips to find answers instead of combo pieces, and there just aren't as many answers as hate pieces, unless you've boarded in so much that you weaken the combo.
It may just be that TinFins is a deck that's doomed to wax and wane like Dredge. In an unprepared meta it's just a monster, but in it's current incarnation at least, it's fairly easy to hate out. The problem is if RiP/Helm continues to be a good win condition for control decks, the meta may never really be all that unprepared.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
this may sound silly, but what if instead of splashing green for AD we splash red for Overmaster?
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Cheese
This is probably the most important discussion we can be having right now, and to answer: I don't really know that it is. The reason the deck is so consistent and generally able to play through countermagic game 1 is that we have a ton of redundancy built in. Multiple ways to bin Grizzlebees, plenty of ways to reanimate him, multiple win conditions. To bring in anti-hate means we're always watering some aspect down, unless we're completely switching gears, which is why we've tried so many transformational boards. Being reactive still seems like the best strategy so far, but it still feels like trading a GT-R for a Maxima. You're burning cantrips to find answers instead of combo pieces, and there just aren't as many answers as hate pieces, unless you've boarded in so much that you weaken the combo.
It may just be that TinFins is a deck that's doomed to wax and wane like Dredge. In an unprepared meta it's just a monster, but in it's current incarnation at least, it's fairly easy to hate out. The problem is if RiP/Helm continues to be a good win condition for control decks, the meta may never really be all that unprepared.
This^
Completely agree with everything you said here Richard. Almost everyone is gonna be packing some amount of graveyard hate somewhere in their 75. Fortunately, most of that hate can be played through. The problem occurs, like Koby said, when our opponents are running multiple forms of hate. The RiP/Helm decks are definitely our nightmare match. They run multiple forms of hate, not only in their board, but in their main 60. Other matches could easily become just as hostile if they decide to diversify their hate cards.
I've come to the conclusion that the only way to really fight an overly hostile meta is to have another list to audible into that is effective against an anti-graveyard/combo heavy meta.
I currently have two decks ready to go for the next open in Atlanta:
TinFins - for if the meta is not overly hostile or full of RiP/Helm
BUG Delver - For if the meta is overly prepared and/or full of RiP/Helm
In my testing BUG has been very effective against the RiP/Helm control lists. If the meta develops in such a way that it does not seem prudent to run a gy/combo deck, I'll play BUG instead. If the meta appears to still be heavily focused on combating midrange and other fair decks, then TinFins it will be.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZimAshe
this may sound silly, but what if instead of splashing green for AD we splash red for
Overmaster?
Color me puzzled, but how would a one mana instant help us resolve other 1 mana instants against Counterbalance or Chalice?
@ Cellar Door -- this looks like a discussion more fitted for Format Discussion rather than this thread. However, regarding the transformational sideboard, there are two good options (and one poor):
#1) Reanimator -> Storm deck
#2) Reanimator -> Painter/Stone (maintains use of the fast mana, still vulnerable to Counterbalance...)
#3) Reanimator -> Tempo creatures (Delver, Goyf, Tombstalker, Clique)
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Color me puzzled, but how would a one mana instant help us resolve other 1 mana instants against Counterbalance or Chalice?
yeah brain fart. I'm a dufus :rolleyes:
