combo, TNN or antiTNN.
that's the deck choice for next season..
I go anti nemesis
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combo, TNN or antiTNN.
that's the deck choice for next season..
I go anti nemesis
Seeing as how it was one of the most played cards at the grand prix according to wizards and ended up in 3 of the 8 decks in top 8 I would say you're very likely to see TNN. However, if toxic deluge or golari charm is dead against too many decks I wouldn't main deck it. Everything you mentioned that's good vs TNN is bad against combo or at least sub obtimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
I was also wondering under what circumstances we would call for banning. I thought that if it appeared in 2-4 of every top 8 until December it should probably be banned because this was the criteria for other bannings. I would also say format warping but that's a much more subjective call and harder to prove. Under what conditions would everyone agree to a banning?
Did he play the standard version or the flyer-heavy one with Serra Avengers and SoFaI?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Standard combo control version. About 70% of the meta is combo. So I broke out fish and he had the normal DnT build.
Wizards has used pretty much every reason under the sun to justify a banning. For competitive health reasons, for tournament time limit reasons, for "unfun, gentleman-agreement" reasons, etc. It's tough to gauge exactly what criteria needs to be met in order for a TNN ban as there's a laundry list of potential reasons out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklotus3636
You are being lazy, we can be more refined than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Combo
TNN variants
Aggro tribal, Burn
control (prison, Miracle)
I expect a drop in BUG/Jund. If you're playing a so-called Mid-range deck like BUG, hard to convince others why you're not playing a TNN deck instead.
If anything is worthy of consideration of banning, it has to be show and tell.
Truth be told, there is ONLY 1 THING that will cause a card to be banned from a format.
That is: ATTENDANCE NUMBERS
The only way TNN gets banned is with notable decline in tournament attendees.
I'm not sure if BUG/Jund will drop off the face of the earth. Probably have decreased representation because everyone wants to play TNN, the new flavor of the month. But if the metagame becomes over-saturated with TNN Midrange decks I think BUG/Jund could make a comeback since they have Liliana, Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Why do you think Show and Tell is ban worthy? I know it's broken as hell, unfun for most people to play with and against, hard to hate out, etc. But I still don't see a legit reason to ban it. I feel like Sneak and Show is the best combo deck in the format, and that is alright because there needs to be a combo deck people have to respect to keep the midrange decks honest. I think the only reason it should ever be banned is if it ever gets to a point of taking up too much of the metagame, which doesn't seem like it will happen in the forseeable future barring a yet-to-be-printed card that will break it enough to get it banned.
Except that TNN basically makes control worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Aggro Tribal? Burn? I don't see that being effective anymore when players are running Stone forge and TNN side by side.
Basically the entire metagame now is:
1. Combo deck
or
2. Aggro/control deck with one or more of: Delver, Stoneforge Mystic, TNN
D&T can easy deal with TNN with SB:
- Wing Shards it also very good vs elves also storm can dodge protection in sort of counterspells.
Anyway I simply don't want to change decks to deal with such a shitty card - its designers fault, they should be punished, not players.
This card is extremely banworthy because it warps the format in a way that you have to play narrow and very specific cards to have at least a bit of a chance to win. Unfortunately, only tremendous presence in top8s will make Wizards to take action against it, but since this probably won't happen I envision a very awkward gaming experience in the upcoming months...
Look closely to this pictureQuote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...9771&type=card
I wrote Worthy of consideration, meaning that card is strong enough to be on the table for discussion. TNN is not even worthy of discussion, even people who runs TNN, would SB it out against combos such as Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
You're suffering hysterical over-reaction. Take a deep breath, relax, it's not the end of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
People used to use Geist game 1 against combo, put them on a 6 dmg per turn clock. Now people have this TNN, put them on 3 dmg per turn clock. I find that funny.
If you look here you can see Nevarine finished 36th at DC with a Burn deck going 12-3.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
If we do a quick analysis of the swiss at DCQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Leaders 40 Points (1st-3rd)
1) D&T
2) Sneak & Show
3) Dredge
The Pack 39 Points (4th-11th)
Elves
Patriot-Blade
Agent BUG
Esper-Blade
Bant-Blade
Team America
RUG Threshold
RUG Threshold (with TNN in sideboard)
Runners up 37 Points (12th-13th)
Agent BUG
Esper-Blade
It is only breakers keeping Team America and RUG out of the top 8. Not sure I would really class them as antiTNN; Golgari Charm certainly helps though. There is 3 different combo decks and 3 different Blade decks. The other factor is that 14th-37th were all on 36 points and we do not know what most of those decks are. The control decks, like the Burn deck mentioned, could all just be one game away from being listed.
There is no blue card on the dart board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey
So, your 22 man tournament results are driving the meta? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I believe in facts: BoM = 2 D&T in the top 8, Eternal Weekend D&T 1rst and 3rd, Grand prix DC D&T 5th. I guess the deck must be good enough (The currently good version can race TNN).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed it. Maro drew the art and it's a well-known fact that he has a raging boner for blue, so it isn't too suprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
The coverage of the GP sounded like Wizards considers TNN a huge success and good addition to the format, despite all the bitching of the community.
Considering the Grixis deck sells like hotcakes because of TNN, I fully expect them to include at least one bonkers chase rare each year into Commander decks to boost their sales.
No, that's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that DnT has no direct way of dealing with this card. As show by the utter disgust I have seen on the faces of the players that face it. Race it, change your deck, do what the Fuck you wish but as it stands there is no direct answer to this card in the standard build of DnT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
On some level, that's just business. I think that would bother people a lot less if the chase cards they made weren't as terribly designed as TNN (and maybe with less awesome?) For example, I think a red misdirection would be a fine chase card to throw in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Isn't this the case for every strategy? Evolve or die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
D&T is perfectly capable of racing this card with efficient beaters and equipment that gives life. Also, stopping your opponent from reaching 3 mana is fully possible with waste/port and plowing DRS etc while you drop dorks via Vial. The "standard" build should be always be the one that is best tweaked to the meta. Wing Shards or any other of the numerous non-targeting white removal spells seem like decent options against TNN.