Chinese fakes

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

On topic is you posting screen shots of yourself ordering cards and asking him to print Black Lotus, go jump in a fire.

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Maybe in your country ordering means something else. But I have ordered nothing, as the only package which is coming to me is free sample. And yes, I asked him many questions, solely to POST HERE for ignorants like you to not even understand the message I delivered. This post was supposed to be about information (what cards, what quality, what quantity). I tried to provide those information. You started spamming and epissing on each other's head and have continued for 25 pages.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

It saves people money, which they can do other things with.

People listen to pirated music all the time. No one complains about counterfeited poker decks- who's getting the copyrights for that? For that matter, who is Wizards paying for all its borrowed intellectual property rights, from elves and goblins, to Dracula and Frankenstein, to Greek mythology?

What reason is there not to support counterfeiting, if the counterfeits are good?

I mean it's worth keeping in mind the vast disparity in what you would pay to support a band you like by buying their album instead of pirating it, maybe $10, or what you would pay to support a board game you like, maybe $40-60, or even what you'd pay to buy a full run of a show in DVDs or something like that, versus what it costs to build even a modest Magic deck in even a contemporary, non-eternal format.

And given Wizards' track record of protecting that investment against theft at their tournaments.... yeah, my sympathy's kind of limited.

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I don't think anybody is worried about Wizards at the moment (at least I'm not) but are instead worried about gaming stores losing tons of money and closing. In my experience gaming stores have trouble making a profit as it is. If these gaming stores go down I don't see Legacy really being worthwhile anymore. And yeah, poker exists and people run poker games out their homes. But those games can't even come close to comparing to the games that go on in casinos.

http://i.imgur.com/eom0jsS.png

Looks like they don't ship into the US for now (probably due to potential seizure), but that could also be just another lie.

You know what they should have done? They shouldn't have had any word about them being "proxies" in the auction listing and just list the cards as though they were normal, for slightly under market value. There wouldn't be some huge calamity about Legacy dying and the health of the format, instead prices would slowly decrease over time and Legacy would become way more popular as more people could acquire the cards for a substantial (although discounted) rate. And since the cards are so incredibly close to the real ones, no one would know the difference anyway. (When you buy a playset of something - or at least before this - did you ever perform some myriad of tests to ensure it was real? No, probably not.)

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

It saves people money, which they can do other things with.

People listen to pirated music all the time. No one complains about counterfeited poker decks- who's getting the copyrights for that? For that matter, who is Wizards paying for all its borrowed intellectual property rights, from elves and goblins, to Dracula and Frankenstein, to Greek mythology?

What reason is there not to support counterfeiting, if the counterfeits are good?

I mean it's worth keeping in mind the vast disparity in what you would pay to support a band you like by buying their album instead of pirating it, maybe $10, or what you would pay to support a board game you like, maybe $40-60, or even what you'd pay to buy a full run of a show in DVDs or something like that, versus what it costs to build even a modest Magic deck in even a contemporary, non-eternal format.

And given Wizards' track record of protecting that investment against theft at their tournaments.... yeah, my sympathy's kind of limited.

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yeah umm... no one has a trademark on Greek myth. More attempts to justify illegal activity. Stop trying to shift the burden of proof. You obviously know the reason's against counterfeiting so your just trolling right? Yes people listen to pirated music and there has been theft at some magic tournaments neither one has anything to do with the topic at hand. Please contribute something meaningful to the discussion or kindly STFU

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

On topic is you posting screen shots of yourself ordering cards and asking him to print Black Lotus, go jump in a fire.



The victims of people supporting counterfeiters are the shops and the players. Players will get passed bad cards and it will be harder to sell their cards. Shops will have to scrutinize cards more and will lose out on sales to people who knowingly buy fakes when they otherwise would have invested in real cards (and occasionally fakes may slip into stores which represents a HUGE loss on their books). Without the casual idiot demand the printers will struggle to sell enough to justify firing up the machinery when they could just continue printing the normal products, apparently these counterfeits wouldn't even exist if someone hadn't tricked the company into it (they weren't even equipped to place a full order). Don't forget it takes time to set up all this equipment and formulate out how to do a good job. It's not like they go on Wizards and pull up an image and press print, there's a reason minimum orders are in the thousands of sheets. Also the printer makes the same amount off these they would off making their normal products, it's the idiots driving up demand that are going to cause the community to get flooded with fakes instead of the trickle we've had for so many years.

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This.

If people want fakes I just dont get why they dont use their own printers. Supporting these bastards will ruin the game stores and whole game. Anyone who just wants these cards "for own use or EDH" deck is talking bullshit. They can do ok proxies any day if they want. People just dont see the whole picture here. I hope WoTC in China will catch these people and sue them. Chinese law is quite harsh.

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Originally Posted by JBlaze

yeah umm... no one has a trademark on Greek myth. More attempts to justify illegal activity. Stop trying to shift the burden of proof. You obviously know the reason's against counterfeiting so your just trolling right? Yes people listen to pirated music and there has been theft at some magic tournaments neither one has anything to do with the topic at hand. Please contribute something meaningful to the discussion or kindly STFU

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Okay then, how about this?

These counterfeiters are serving the market for these cards, irrespective of the morality of such. That is a fact. At the moment, it doesn't matter what we think or believe, as the fact is that this is happening. Wizards could have done something to make the market less lucrative years ago - they didn't, and now the market is suffering from a need. The more important question is, "Beyond M15, what are Wizards going to do to try and protect players?"

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

Okay then, how about this?

These counterfeiters are serving the market for these cards, irrespective of the morality of such. That is a fact. At the moment, it doesn't matter what we think or believe, as the fact is that this is happening. Wizards could have done something to make the market less lucrative years ago - they didn't, and now the market is suffering from a need. The more important question is, "Beyond M15, what are Wizards going to do to try and protect players?"

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Does that mean car manufacturer shall lower their prices that car theft is less lucrative? 3,50-4€ per booster is a rip-off

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Originally Posted by Barook

http://i.imgur.com/eom0jsS.png

Looks like they don't ship into the US for now (probably due to potential seizure), but that could also be just another lie.

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It may have something to do with this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...ome_check_out/

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Originally Posted by prateta

Maybe in your country ordering means something else. But I have ordered nothing, as the only package which is coming to me is free sample. And yes, I asked him many questions, solely to POST HERE for ignorants like you to not even understand the message I delivered. This post was supposed to be about information (what cards, what quality, what quantity). I tried to provide those information. You started spamming and epissing on each other's head and have continued for 25 pages.

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Originally Posted by prateta

http://i39.tinypic.com/2rfrpys.jpg

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I don't know what passes as an order in your country but I have bought legit Magic cards from China before and shipping is not $28 LOfuckingL. Please take a picture of your shipping receipt when it arrives if I am wrong (protip, I'm not) I will book a ticket to where ever you live and fly there to personally give you a high five. About half to 2/3 of that at best is paying for shipping the rest is going in this printer's pocket. He's actually making more off you then he would fulfilling a normal order and you still have not a blue's clue where you stand in all this. Giant order coming in on the 19th... Yeah this game is fucked. Even if I have bunk information and that order on the 19th is bullshit it's only a matter of time.

I was holding out hope. I sat at home last weekend for several hours pawing though my cards. Maybe there's hope yet... Maybe people will see in time how foolish, how shortsighted they are being... Maybe people will realize if it's come to this there are better alternatives then supporting counterfeiters, but I just don't think that's the case. People aren't seeing the big picture so it's come to this. In a way ever since I saw this brewing I knew it would...

Goodbye epic Magic card collection. I loved you so and I worked my ass off to get you, but unfortunately our time together has come to an end. Nothing would make me happier then to hold onto you until I grow old and step back into the game when time permits to test wits with the best, but it just isn't in the cards (no pun). It will feel like I'm selling a piece of my very self when we part ways. I've known you longer at this point then I've known my best friend, but I just don't see any future in it anymore. I had dreams of holding onto you and one day playing Magic with my son as my dad used to with me, but I don't think you will live that long. Atleast not the game I know... Maybe you are a relic of the past, a corded phone, a print magazine, something I will one day tell my children about. I feel as though the future is in the zeros and ones, the digital world. Perhaps you will survive there where no one can hurt you, perhaps you won't, but for now it's over...

Flames removed. No one's getting banned, but I don't care how pissed you are; you don't get to openly flame other members. -zilla

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

What reason is there not to support counterfeiting, if the counterfeits are good?

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I'm having trouble understanding your logic here. Being a good criminal means you are not committing a crime?

This isn't pirating music (which I don't do for that matter) and this isn't Cockatrice. As others have said, Cockatrice hasn't broken MTGO because it doesn't completely throw into question the legitimacy of every MTGO product. This is rather simple stuff guys. I don't care if you are buying these proxies only for personal use. Pure and simple, you are providing the funding for criminals to release more and better fakes into the market.

This isn't about reducing the cost of playing Legacy because WotC can (and probably should work on that) and many of us would be in agreement over this. This is about potentially ruining the legitimacy and credibility of every single Magic card you set your eyes on.

I think this is a win win situation for the community.
Either

A) A small amount of HQ fakes starts circulating. Price on REAL cards drops because it's extremely difficult to distinguish fakes from the real deal. In the end, IF fake cards become SO good quality that they are really hard to distinguish even for major sellers and Judges, I'm happy for the newer players. I will certainly not endorse fakes as I never had in my life under any circumstance, but I'm glad they exist for other people.

B) People are freaking out about their collections loosing value (I'm freaking out about mine and my collection is less slightly less than 15K$-current value- so I can just imagine how much people with 100k$ of mtg are shitting their pants right now) so they cash out. Price on real cards drops.

C) HQ fakes flood the market, prices collapse, the bubble finally bursts, end of Mtg and I can quit this fucking drug.

Despite me having sold parts of my collection a few months ago and this week I still hold onto decks I can't part with. We, as a Legacy community have claimed it over and over again that we'd love prices to fall in order to enable new players to catch up with us. Now fucking stand to your word! Reducing a collections worth might be a good idea now, but selling everything and quitting this game is no option. I am sorry.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I'm having trouble understanding your logic here. Being a good criminal means you are not committing a crime?

This isn't pirating music (which I don't do for that matter) and this isn't Cockatrice. As others have said, Cockatrice hasn't broken MTGO because it doesn't completely throw into question the legitimacy of every MTGO product. This is rather simple stuff guys. I don't care if you are buying these proxies only for personal use. Pure and simple, you are providing the funding for criminals to release more and better fakes into the market.

This isn't about reducing the cost of playing Legacy because WotC can (and probably should work on that) and many of us would be in agreement over this. This is about potentially ruining the legitimacy and credibility of every single Magic card you set your eyes on.

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This sums up every post I've made here pretty nicely so I will quote it.

To the people bringing up Cockatrice I will quote myself and repose the question to anyone daring enough to answer it.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Cockatrice would be a good comparison if the creators were making a profit and using that to hack into MTGO and duplicate thousands and thousands of chase rares. That's not happening though, if it was would you support Cockatrice?

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Goodbye epic Magic card collection. I loved you so and I worked my ass off to get you, but unfortunately our time together has come to an end. Nothing would make me happier then to hold onto you until I grow old and step back into the game when time permits to test wits with the best, but it just isn't in the cards (no pun). It will feel like I'm selling a piece of my very self when we part ways. I've known you longer at this point then I've known my best friend, but I just don't see any future in it anymore. I had dreams of holding onto you and one day playing Magic with my son as my dad used to with me, but I don't think you will live that long. Atleast not the game I know... Maybe you are a relic of the past, a corded phone, a print magazine, something I will one day tell my children about. I feel as though the future is in the zeros and ones, the digital world. Perhaps you will survive there where no one can hurt you, perhaps you won't, but for now it's over...

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the overly-dramatic monologuing about the eminent demise of magic has really gotta stop. please. junk like this is just in-turn promoting more of the same stuff and it's not doing anyone any good. yes -- this counterfeiting business is unfortunate, and it might cause a shake-up in the game we all love. change is scary, i know.

but it almost certainly isn't going to mean the demise of magic. there are smart, experienced people that get paid to worry about this kind of stuff. fortunately, we aren't them, and worrying ourselves to death over this little unexpected turn of events is entirely unnecessary.

Just because some people might do something unethical like unscrupulously sell or trade these proxies doesn't mean it's wrong for a casual player to obtain and use detailed proxies outside of sanctioned play, selling or trading.

There is nothing unethical or harmful about Jim buying 30 proxy unhinged Islands for $30 dollars for his kitchen table Azami EDH deck provided that Jim wasn't ever going to spend $250 dollars on basic land cards and he doesn't sell or trade the proxies.

Similar to if Susan doesn't have $2000 to spend on Legacy deck for casual player, but instead spends $50 on impressive proxies that she doesn't sell, trade or compete with in sanctioned events. There isn't anything unethical or harmful about this.

On another note I just want to verify, regarding 55,000 cards on the 19th and 200,000 cards on the 23rd, are the cards being shipped on those days? Are they being printed on those days? Or are the cards being delivered on those days?

I'm trying to get an idea of when we are going to really see a true detailed review of these proxies (videos, detailed high quality photos, front and back of card, side by side comparisons, pictures inside of sleeves, etc).

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Just because some people might do something unethical like unscrupulously sell or trade these proxies doesn't mean it's wrong for a casual player to obtain and use detailed proxies outside of sanctioned play, selling or trading.

There is nothing unethical or harmful about Jim buying 30 proxy unhinged Islands for $30 dollars for his kitchen table Azami EDH deck provided that Jim wasn't ever going to spend $250 dollars on basic land cards and he doesn't sell or trade the proxies.

Similar to if Susan doesn't have $2000 to spend on Legacy deck for casual player, but instead spends $50 on impressive proxies that she doesn't sell, trade or compete with in sanctioned events. There isn't anything unethical or harmful about this.

On another note I just want to verify, regarding 55,000 cards on the 19th and 200,000 cards on the 23rd, are the cards being shipped on those days? Are they being printed on those days? Or are the cards being delivered on those days?

I'm trying to get an idea of when we are going to really see a true detailed review of these proxies (videos, detailed high quality photos, front and back of card, side by side comparisons, pictures inside of sleeves, etc).

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Get a fucking clue casual players could already do this at home with there own printer. Nobody is buying 100 copies of Jace for personal use in my mind that is intent to distribute brother. Your island example is even worse because now this dude is spending $30 dollars for fake ISLANDS it might not be unethical but man is it stupid

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Just because some people might do something unethical like unscrupulously sell or trade these proxies doesn't mean it's wrong for a casual player to obtain and use detailed proxies outside of sanctioned play, selling or trading.

There is nothing unethical or harmful about Jim buying 30 proxy unhinged Islands for $30 dollars for his kitchen table Azami EDH deck provided that Jim wasn't ever going to spend $250 dollars on basic land cards and he doesn't sell or trade the proxies.

Similar to if Susan doesn't have $2000 to spend on Legacy deck for casual player, but instead spends $50 on impressive proxies that she doesn't sell, trade or compete with in sanctioned events. There isn't anything unethical or harmful about this.

On another note I just want to verify, regarding 55,000 cards on the 19th and 200,000 cards on the 23rd, are the cards being shipped on those days? Are they being printed on those days? Or are the cards being delivered on those days?

I'm trying to get an idea of when we are going to really see a true detailed review of these proxies (videos, detailed high quality photos, front and back of card, side by side comparisons, pictures inside of sleeves, etc).

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Did you seriously registered to the Source just to write this pile of crap?

Nope he registered on the Source so he could copy and paste this pile of crap from MTGS

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Similar to if Susan doesn't have $2000 to spend on Legacy deck for casual player, but instead spends $50 on impressive proxies that she doesn't sell, trade or compete with in sanctioned events. There isn't anything unethical or harmful about this.

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If there were a way that Susan could get her "impressive proxies" without supporting a massive counterfeiting ring then sure. People make really great proxies, even some really nice foil proxies, all the time. That isn't an issue. The issue is that if people want near-identical, hard-to-distinguish proxies then that requires a printing press and a lot of time and money on the part of the printer to get it right. For someone to invest in doing that, they'd have to plan to turn over a whole lot of fakes.

By buying these near-identical proxies, Susan isn't only affecting herself. She isn't printing these at home. Her friend isn't going to sell her some proxies he made. We aren't even talking about someone heading over to Kinko's and printing laminations to make their own proxy foils. She is buying these proxies from a counterfeiting company outside the US and by doing so, she is directly supporting the mass production of fakes, a good portion of which will make it into general circulation. If Susan wants to print her own proxies, good for her. If she wants to contribute to the undermining of the entire legitimacy of a collectible card game then we have a problem.