Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
You guys are dismissing library too easily. There have been plenty of recent successful BUG Delver lists with one main deck library. Yes it can be weak when you need gas, but that's why you only play one. At worst it's another card to keep in your hand for brainstorm. The point of library is to have another incremental advantage engine besides Liliana main deck that allows us to have gas going into the mid and late game. I also don't think library only has value in control matchups but also can be utilized well against combo and other delver decks. In my experience it has varying degrees of value depending on the matchup, only being weak enough to cut against aggressive decks like burn and merfolk where your life total is under pressure REALLY quickly. Library may not be good in tempo decks (though I hear drawing more cards is good for tempo decks), but Team America isn't a pure tempo deck. It's somewhere in between tempo and midrange. If you want to try a more tempoish version of Team America go ahead and move library to the side, but I would not cut it entirely.
Also, Sorry to hear about your bad run Barbed Blightning. I've a lot of bad runs recently as SCGs , most involving facing fish within the first three rounds as well. Hate that deck so much.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
You guys are dismissing library too easily. There have been plenty of recent successful BUG Delver lists with one main deck library. Yes it can be weak when you need gas, but that's why you only play one. At worst it's another card to keep in your hand for brainstorm. The point of library is to have another incremental advantage engine besides Liliana main deck that allows us to have gas going into the mid and late game
I agree Library can be great, but since it's meh in about 50% of the matchups I prefer to have it in the sideboard and playing the 3rd Liliana (which is good in almost any matchup) in its place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
I also don't think library only has value in control matchups but also can be utilized well against combo and other delver decks.
Getting value from Library against combo means playing it as soon as possible, ideally on 2nd turn: so either you have to tap yourself out (which is something you could regret against combo decks), or you have to play Shaman on turn 1, Library turn 2 and keep yourself open for countermagic.
The first case seems very dangerous, the second one doesn't happen very often.
Since we pack 4 Tourach, IMHO a 2nd turn Hymn is the best play vs combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
Library may not be good in tempo decks (though I hear drawing more cards is good for tempo decks), but Team America isn't a pure tempo deck. It's somewhere in between tempo and midrange. If you want to try a more tempoish version of Team America go ahead and move library to the side, but I would not cut it entirely.
I agree, it depends on your strategy.
I prefer to play the "tempo" role in game 1, and keep the controllish tools in the sideboard.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I'm a huge fan of Sylvan Library myself. Against most matchups, the card selection alone is worth it to win the game. Even when you see 3 terrible cards on top with no way to shuffle, you still have the option to pay 8 life and clear off the top.
The only time I board it out is against fast combo and even then, it's not horrible. Just don't tap out for it and you should be ok.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Played TA at SCG Portland to a 27th place finish. Not as good as I was hoping, but I'm 4/4 placing in the top 32 or better, so I guess that's ok. I played the same list as the one I got 4th with at Columbus. I'll talk more about the choices after.
R1 - Shardless BUG - 1-0 - He used his Deathrites much less efficiently and he couldn't deal with Clique(s) despite gumming up the ground.
R2 - Elves! - 2-0 - I managed to win g1 thanks to Sinkholing him with double Disfigure. G2 I didn't draw a dude with butt, just Golgari Charms, so his x/2s got there. G3 I killed everything and Cliqued him.
R3 - D&T - 2-0-1 - My first draw in probably a year or 2. I want to talk about this one in detail.
So G1 I have 2 lands, flipped Delver, and a DRS to his 3 lands including Port and an Aether Vial on 1. I'm at 18, he's at 14. My hand is double Goyf, Hymn, Decay. He has just topdecked a Flickerwisp to rebuy his Stoneforge for SoFI (he forgot to search the first time). The next couple turns had several decision points each of which could have changed the game.
I decided to play Goyf and try to race instead of Hymning his SoFI. He ticked up Vial, topdecked Wasteland, and hit a land. I could now choose to Decay his Flickerwisp (possibly getting blown out by a topdeck Flickerwisp) or play another Goyf. I decided to play Goyf since I can Decay in response to Port. He put in SoFI, drew, suited up, hit for 5, and killed Deathrite. Then he proceeds to rip chump blockers and removal while I brick on sufficient lands and he kills me. So the big decisions are: (1) Hymn, Decay, or Goyf? (2) next turn, Goyf or Decay?
Anyway, g2 I win very easily despite his RiP, and then g3 I had the board under control with a Goyf to his Serra Avenger and Stoneforge (which found Jitte), but then I Hymn (the 1 I left in) him and hit Wilt-Leaf Liege. We ended up drawing with him at a favorable board state, so I'll chalk it as a loss.
R4 - Grixis OmniTell - 3-0-1 - I left him with 1 permanent on board and no cards in hand both games. Hymn and Wasteland are sweet.
R5 - D&T - 3-1-1 - G1 he took over with equipment and fliers. G2 I Thoughtseized him and saw 2 lands, Vial, RiP, double Mom, double Wilt-Lief. Took Vial. He never cast WLL and won very easily.
R6 - UWR Delver - 4-1-1 - I won both games very decisively. Deathrite is a real card.
R7 - Jund - 4-2-1 - I wasn't in either game, not really. Punishing Fire did work.
R8 - TA - 5-2-1 - Game 3 was very silly with dueling Lilianas. I drew more threats so got to ultimate mine first since he had to use his as removal. Successfully Do or Died a single land. Like I said, very silly.
R9 - Deathblade - 6-2-1 - He never got above 3 mana sources. I killed many lands.
So overall still happy with the list. I like the Sylvan main although I didn't draw it much. It's a generically great card in most every matchup. It definitely gets boarded out, but I'm happy to have it in the main. Clique has been absolutely amazing in the maindeck and board. Most decks just have so many problems dealing with a flier, and its disruption is very relevant. I boarded in Tar Pit a lot, but never really drew it. I'm not sure that I'm entirely happy with it, but I would feel nervous having only 19 lands in the 75. Pithing Needle was also underwhelming. I had been boarding it in a lot since most decks have targets, but really it's just not worth it I think. It's not a threat and they can either get value off planeswalkers if you drop it reactively or just brainstorm away the card you name if you do it proactively. I'm seriously considering Virtue's Ruin in its slot.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Well done on the finish still!
Re: Hymn / Goyf / AD - did he have anything else on the board other than Flickerwisp, SFM, Aether Vial, 2 lands + Port? How many cards in hand did he have? If he had 2 or less, I would've been tempted by Hymn if I could guarantee hit the SoFI. I think Goyf is fine there too though since D&T has a hard time dealing with him if they don't have Mom or StP ready.
Re: Virtue's Ruin - As much as I love the card, I don't think it's needed right now. The main selling point of Virtue's Ruin to me is killing KoTR. Against D&T, I think Dread of Night is generally better? Much easier to cast through Thalia and sits around gimping their team. God forbid you get to Golgari Charm when you have one of those out.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Re: Virtue's Ruin - As much as I love the card, I don't think it's needed right now. The main selling point of Virtue's Ruin to me is killing KoTR. Against D&T, I think Dread of Night is generally better? Much easier to cast through Thalia and sits around gimping their team. God forbid you get to Golgari Charm when you have one of those out.
Basically came here to say this. I suppose killing Crusader, Liege, Avenger and SFM is nice, but Ruin is on the expensive side.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Well done on the finish still!
Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Re: Hymn / Goyf / AD - did he have anything else on the board other than Flickerwisp, SFM, Aether Vial, 2 lands + Port? How many cards in hand did he have? If he had 2 or less, I would've been tempted by Hymn if I could guarantee hit the SoFI. I think Goyf is fine there too though since D&T has a hard time dealing with him if they don't have Mom or StP ready.
That's it for the board, and his hand is only SoFI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Re: Virtue's Ruin - As much as I love the card, I don't think it's needed right now. The main selling point of Virtue's Ruin to me is killing KoTR. Against D&T, I think Dread of Night is generally better? Much easier to cast through Thalia and sits around gimping their team. God forbid you get to Golgari Charm when you have one of those out.
I keep on losing to Serra Avengers and having issues with Brimaz and Mirran Crusader. 3 mana can be tough, but killing their team is usually worth it. Dread of Night has its perks like bringing Avenger into Disfigure range, but it doesn't deal with the really scary threats by itself.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmutant
That's it for the board, and his hand is only SoFI.
So if he draws a land, he can SFM in the SoFI + Equip & attack?
Also consider that Hymn probably won't have any more value the rest of the game if we don't Hymn there.
Of course, it's all easy to say this with 20/20 hindsight :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmutant
I keep on losing to Serra Avengers and having issues with Brimaz and Mirran Crusader. 3 mana can be tough, but killing their team is usually worth it. Dread of Night has its perks like bringing Avenger into Disfigure range, but it doesn't deal with the really scary threats by itself.
Yeah Crusader is just a bitch for us to deal with. For me though, I always had more problems with 1) T1 Mom when I'm on the draw and of course, don't have a Disfigure to deal with it and 2) Thalia + mana disruption keeping me from cantripping effectively.
I haven't had as much of an issue with Brimaz because we can AD him nor Serra Avenger unless they happen to get multiples out and we can't kill them.
Ever consider a Jitte in the board? I've loved it in pretty much every fair matchup we play, especially in ones like vs D&T where they're not particularly fast and they have plenty of little dudes for us to murder.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
So if he draws a land, he can SFM in the SoFI + Equip & attack?
Also consider that Hymn probably won't have any more value the rest of the game if we don't Hymn there.
Of course, it's all easy to say this with 20/20 hindsight :)
I definitely think you're right there. What about the Goyf vs. Decay play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Yeah Crusader is just a bitch for us to deal with. For me though, I always had more problems with 1) T1 Mom when I'm on the draw and of course, don't have a Disfigure to deal with it and 2) Thalia + mana disruption keeping me from cantripping effectively.
I haven't had as much of an issue with Brimaz because we can AD him nor Serra Avenger unless they happen to get multiples out and we can't kill them.
Ever consider a Jitte in the board? I've loved it in pretty much every fair matchup we play, especially in ones like vs D&T where they're not particularly fast and they have plenty of little dudes for us to murder.
Haven't had too many issues with Mom because of Charm, but I've had more of a problem with the 6+ creatures that need to be Decayed stretching the card too thin. Jitte definitely is a consideration - I had it in the board for Elves and Burn at one point. Hmm, might give that a go.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Deluge over virtues ruin? That way you can board it against other things as well maybe? Your Goyf gets tostick around most of the time
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
So if he draws a land, he can SFM in the SoFI + Equip & attack?
Also consider that Hymn probably won't have any more value the rest of the game if we don't Hymn there.
Of course, it's all easy to say this with 20/20 hindsight :)
Yeah Crusader is just a bitch for us to deal with. For me though, I always had more problems with 1) T1 Mom when I'm on the draw and of course, don't have a Disfigure to deal with it and 2) Thalia + mana disruption keeping me from cantripping effectively.
I haven't had as much of an issue with Brimaz because we can AD him nor Serra Avenger unless they happen to get multiples out and we can't kill them.
Ever consider a Jitte in the board? I've loved it in pretty much every fair matchup we play, especially in ones like vs D&T where they're not particularly fast and they have plenty of little dudes for us to murder.
I feel like Brimaz is a win more for DNT. When he drops, his board has already stablized and brimaz just seals the game.
Our biggest problem against them is MOM and that stupid guy who has protection from B/G
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmutant
I definitely think you're right there. What about the Goyf vs. Decay play?
You mean the turn you played the 2nd Goyf instead of the AD?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmutant
Haven't had too many issues with Mom because of Charm, but I've had more of a problem with the 6+ creatures that need to be Decayed stretching the card too thin. Jitte definitely is a consideration - I had it in the board for Elves and Burn at one point. Hmm, might give that a go.
I'm down to 2 Charms in my board right now and for some reason, I can never call any of them to my hand when my opponent gets down an active Mom :(
Even with Charm, part of the problem I run into is when they go T1 Mom into T2 SFM. Now, even with Golgari Charm, they still get to get down Batterskull unless we happen to have Disfigure + 2nd removal spell.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Massacre; Dread of Night; Darkblast, etc.
Beating DnT is not impossible if you devote a little bit of sideboard space to beat it. With how popular the deck seems to be right now, I'm not sure why people aren't taking it more seriously. It seems reasonable to have a specialized slot or two for White in addition to your 'general removal suite' (Disfigure, Golgari Charm).
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
In my testing I am slightly positive vs. DnT postboard - even without narrow cards like Dread of Night. Pithing needle is very good vs. DnT (Vial, SFM, equip, Port, mother,...) and also helps other problematic matchups like miracles and sneak attack. Library is also a good card and the backup plan to just outgun them if no quick win is possible. A resolved mirran cruisader is a huge pain and there is surely a different win% if a list plays 0-1 or 3-4 mirran, however resolving it is no autowin for them (racing, liliana) and since they have no card advantage except SFM enough games are won on the back of our card advantage (Hymn, Liliana, Library, Charm).
-4 FoW
-4 Daze
-1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Disfigure
+2 Library
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Golgari Charm
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
In my testing I am slightly positive vs. DnT postboard - even without narrow cards like Dread of Night. Pithing needle is very good vs. DnT (Vial, SFM, equip, Port, mother,...) and also helps other problematic matchups like miracles and sneak attack. Library is also a good card and the backup plan to just outgun them if no quick win is possible. A resolved mirran cruisader is a huge pain and there is surely a different win% if a list plays 0-1 or 3-4 mirran, however resolving it is no autowin for them (racing, liliana) and since they have no card advantage except SFM enough games are won on the back of our card advantage (Hymn, Liliana, Library, Charm).
-4 FoW
-4 Daze
-1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Disfigure
+2 Library
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Golgari Charm
Concur with Catmint, though I would not side out a single goyf. They are probably bringing in the 3-4 Rest in Peace they have in the board, but it's not unusual for them to not see it in a game since they have little to no card draw (usually just a few horizon canopy). Goyf is too good against them when they don't have rest in peace out. I've won many games where they couldn't deal with one goyf and crushed them when I draw more than one.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonslayer_90
Concur with Catmint, though I would not side out a single goyf. They are probably bringing in the 3-4 Rest in Peace they have in the board, but it's not unusual for them to not see it in a game since they have little to no card draw (usually just a few horizon canopy). Goyf is too good against them when they don't have rest in peace out. I've won many games where they couldn't deal with one goyf and crushed them when I draw more than one.
It's actually only two RIP nowadays. Cage takes the 3rd slot to shore up Elves (as much as possible anyway). But I agree on not siding out Goyf; Tombstalker goes first. Just wanted to keep you up to date.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Stalker instead of goyf might be right. Not sure though... both of them are affected by RiP so that was not my consideration.
Goyf is often a good early play if they have Thalia out, but flying is also a thing against mirran crusader, mother or other non-sense on the ground.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hey Guys,
So, I've been playing Miracles for the last few months and have decided to switch it up, going back to good ol' Team America. (For one, people in my LGS now automatically put me on Miracles, and are right, and we can't have that. For two, Team America is an awesome deck and I feel like I'm in a good meta for it.)
I'm fairly set in stone on my maindeck. It feels very solid, it's done very well for me in the past, and it's extremely consistent:
Delver and his boys:
4x Delver
4x DRS
4x Goyf
2x Tombstalker
The lady in black:
2x Liliana
The stuff that flips Delver:
4x Hymn
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
Let's me play all the stuff listed above:
4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
My sideboard currently looks like so (with incomplete notes of intended matchups):
2x Disfigure -- Stoneforge Decks, elves, D&T, Jund, Merfolk, Delver decks...
1x Dismember -- Tarm decks, D&T, Merfolk...
1x Envelop -- Miracles, Storm, Show&Tell
3x Golgari Charm -- Miracles in a small amount, Storm, D&T, Elves
2x Grafdigger's Cage -- Elves, Storm, Dredge if it rears it's ugly head
1x Null Rod -- Stoneblade decks, Miracles, Shops
3x Spell Pierce -- Storm, Miracles, Show & Tell, RUG Delver
2x Vendilion Clique -- Storm, Miracles, Show & Tell, Stoneforge decks, RIP decks
I guess my question is, does that SB seem fine? It looks fine but I'm questioning whether I should have the second clique over envelop, and whether a library should be in there somewhere. Also, I'm questioning whether 3x spell pierce is correct. I like that 3 would feel consistent, but was also considering a split with flusterstorm or cutting one for the second clique as well. My thoughts on 2 clique out of the board is that they can often replace tombstalker in the more reactive matchups, especially if I expect some form of GY hate in either relic, spellbomb, or rest in peace to be brought in. There's also the option of a third liliana, as well as creeping tarpit somewhere. I feel like I'm trying to do too much =P
For reference, my meta (going off what I saw last night) looks something like this:
1-2 Elves Decks
1 Miracles Deck (Also another reason I wanted to jump ship for a bit... haha)
1-2 Death and Taxes
1-2 Jund
1-2 RUG Delver
1 Deathblade
1 Sneak and Show
1 Merfolk deck
There are, at times, other random decks brought in, as we allow proxies (though I don't use any ;) ) and people like to switch things up.
EDIT:
-1 Sapphire Charm, +1 Vendilion Clique
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I think the Sapphire Charm is a little weird but other than that the rest of the cards are fine.
I can see playing a second Clique to swap out for when you board out Tombstalkers as well.
