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Well, with mono-blue you have no 2nd color, and no reason to have a second color. That measnt that your explosives doesn't ever get to 2, therefore its quite bad at killing 'goyf. Secondly, my point is that they are in fact the exact same against EE, only a turn and you can hit their vial. Pithing Needles can always come in against vial too. Powder Keg seems like the play to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
How's this a problem? Just look at the last few lists in this thread... many of them play 4 Flooded Strand, 4 Polluted Delta, 1 Plains and 1 Swamp to solve that problem. The 2 off color basics don't really hurt you all that much and make Engineered Explosives so supperior to Powder Keg because you don't have to wait an eternity to get rid of that Goyf. Also, you don't have to play it proactively (bad because your opponent can then just search for an answer without laying threats).Quote:
Originally Posted by cheddercaveman
Here's a rough list with Explosives, for refference.
MUC Based on Tao's.
Code:/// Mainboard (60 cards)
// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
11 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
// Winconditions
2 Morphling
3 Back to Basics
// Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Repeal
3 Vedalken Shackles
// Permission
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
// Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm
4 Think Twice
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Propaganda
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Stifle
'Only a turn' can be a whole lot sometimes. It can be the difference in dropping a counterable or uncounterable Ringleader. Or when your opponent is beating you with a Mongoose and that one turn saves you of being in Bolt range (let alone die of the Mongoose). I'm not saying EE is necessarily always better, but 1 turn CAN make a big difference sometimes.
(On the other hand, theoretically, if you didn't use fetchland, you probably had an extra turn before you get into burn range....)
Imagine you have to blow up an army of Tarmogoyfs and you opponent has 2 turns worth of attacks...
Explosives can also take out enchantments, like Counterbalance (Counterbalance in Threshhold can almost never counter EE), which is a pro for me.
I'm still not sure though, but at the moment those 2 reasons give EE the nod for me.
I'm going with Explosives, too. They get their job done right now and they hit enchantments (especially CB, as said by JvV).
I'm playing Tao's list currently testing 2 Jace Beleren in there. I've cut the fourth Think Twice and the second Morphling as Jace is a backup-win condition all on its own even if a very slow one. I only use it as such, if my other winconditions are already gone.
It always draws a single card without your opponent being able to do anything about it and the fact that it can't be removed by Pernicious Deed, makes it really shine in control-matchups, as Explosives are the only way of dealing with it most of the time. Repealing a Jace sitting on one counter at your opponents EOT also is great.
However it suffers in aggro-matchups, as more often than not, you either are already in control of the game, or it just acts as 1UU: cycle ~this~, gain 2 life. Has anybody else tested Jace so far and got some results or opinions about it?
Ok, let us stop and think for a moment:
EE hitting enchantments = good?
The correct answer: No. It is neither good nor bad.
Remember, it hits your own enchantments as well. A major reason for playing MUC is that you can run B2B without causing yourself trouble; EE partially precludes this advantage.
However, what it really boils down to is:
Are fetches worth it?
Some Pros/Cons:
Pros:
Thins lands.
Supports EE.
Supports Brainstorm.
Cons:
Lowers land count (Makes the deck more vulnerable to LD)
Lowers Aggro MU (The life loss adds up fast. The most life I ever had at the end of a Gobbos MU was 6).
Makes the deck open to Stifle antics.
Makes the deck open to Needle antics (rare).
EE:
Pros:
Fast (It can blow up the target NOW [A very big pro])
Less vulnerable to Spell Snare.
Can hit enemy enchantments.
Cons:
Requires Fetchlands to be truly effective.
Cannot hit higher numbers (4+)
Risks hitting your own enchantments.
Can't hit manlands (this can lower the Landstill MU by quite a bit)
Draw your own conclusions, but I don't like EE.
I don't like EE because I will not add fetchlands to a deck that doesn't need them just for the sake of one card. Especially a card that isn't so much stronger then Powder Keg. Second, adding 1 random Plains and a Swamp to this deck is like adding 2 two blanks. While the chances of having those cards screw you up in some way is low, but it does exist, and I'd rather avoid that sort of risk if the gain is minimal.
However, aside from all that, the major reason I don't like EE is actually much simpler. It can't hit manlands. By adding fetchlands, increasing vulnerability to stifle, and removing Powder Keg, increasing vulnerability to manlands, you are actually giving decks like 4c Landstill a chance to beat you, both pre and post board. One of the major reasons I've never lost to 4c Landstill with my current build is because it runs 8+ cards that are totally dead in the matchup, while I run more draw, more counters, and more actual useful removal. Yes, you still have B2B available to ream them with, but they have a better chance of beating you if by some chance you don't draw it, or they manage to remove it, something they don't have nearly as much of if you don't run either fetchlands or EE.
On top of that, Powder Keg also has the potential to hit things of higher cc that slip through the cracks (like Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Mystic Enforcer, and Loxodon Hierarch), which EE cannot do unless you splash another color, something that would undoubtedly not be worth it.
I don't consider EE so much incredibly stronger than Powder Keg that it's worth all of the risks you have to take in order to run it. Especially since I don't run Brainstorm, which basically means that unless I don't draw EE, the fetchlands are basically islands that are vulnerable to stifle and cost you 1 life.
Just a maybe stupid idea during testing: what about Merchant Scroll?
Sure, I know it's
a)
a Sorcery
b)
in the 2 CC slot where we want counters / keg / Accu / TT
But I do not plan to run more than 1-2 copies for the mid - lategame where I could imagine that it is useful:
a)
fetches the 3rd or 4th Accu or maybe a FoF when you are sure it will resolve
b)
gets you the needed counter, especially FoW (perhaps a second one if you have already one in hand!) in the first 1-2 Turns (with Mox?) which are very important in the fast combo MUs. The sorcery speed isn't even such a big disadvantage then.
If you play Repeal / Truth, it will even give you the opportunity to search for "removal".
As I said, I don't want to use it as an early game tool but more like a tutor that provides flexibility mainly in the mid-lategame.
So what do you think?
I think if we ran more 1-2 ofs, it could work, but between running virtually 3-4 of every relevant spell, and sufficient draw and/or dig, I don't see a real need for it.
Sure, MUC is mainly built on consistency, but:
have you never experienced a situation you just have established control but couldn't keep it longer because of your opponent's lucky draw / you're missing a counter right then / whatever with plenty of Mana open but no solution?
In addition, I always love to have the last FoF / Accu or a second counter in my hand just in case.
Oh heck yeah I've been in those positions, and I would've loved to Scroll up an answer/response, but what would you cut? And how many Scrolls would you play?
And I agree, Scrolling up your 4th AK and drawing into crazy stuff is always an awesome feeling. I remember WAY back in the day, running Trix w/ Sapphire Medallions, and going crazy with tutoring/drawing cuz all my spells costed U, and most could be done EOT.
Merchant Scroll could be a viable option in the versions that run AK. I don't consider AK to be a particularly strong card by any measure, and every time I've tested a variant with it included I've always hated it. Maybe I just don't get as lucky as you guys seem to with drawing multiples of them, but it always seems like I draw my first AK 10 or so turns into the match.
At any rate, I do agree that Merchant Scroll is a powerful card, and I am interested in trying it out in a version with Chrome Mox to speed up it a bit. Maybe in the slot I would usually include Ancestral Vision...
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
17 [UNH] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
3 [LRW] Guile
// Spells
4 [CS] Rune Snag
3 [DS] Echoing Truth
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [TE] Counterspell
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 4 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 4 [TSP] Trickbind
This is flagrant spam. Don't do that, especially in the LMF. - Bardo
Sorry, ok...
So this is a list i threw together after seeing Guile. It's not very well tested yet, but i though i would put it up for critique.
Guile is amazing, once he hit it is almost gg. StP is the ONLY answer to him that is seeing play, and that can be CBed or Countered. It's nice only having to worry about 1 removal spell.
I'm trying to figure out what is better CA, AK and cheap cantrips, or long term stuff like FoF.
So far the deck has been doing well. a resolves Guile is almost ALWAYS GG, as you can use their spells against them.
@ A Priest of Gix: I really like your list and have in fact been testing CB top in MUC myself. Guile seems like a cool finisher (morphling sems really weak from my testing until now) but I have a few major issues with your list. Your are running only 23 lands and 4 brainstorms to support a 6 mana finisher. And the greatest problem I see with your list is the complete lack of any sort of Card advantage besides CBTop. Does this suffice?
Four issues I can see, APriestofGix:
1. You have no permenant answer to resolved permenants. This is more than slightly important, considering you will not always have CB-Top established, and even when you do, it is fully possible to have your opponent force something through anyway. Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives is highly necessary to help this problem. Echoing Truth is a strong card that can certainly help with that problem, but 4 Shackles is almost definitely too many, especially since you're trying to fit in the mana sink that is CB-Top.
2. You have no cards that increase your hand size. A single hymn to tourach, or any other 2 for 1 discard spell, and your hand size is permenantly decreased. Yes, SDT does help decrease the impact of Discard, but you won't always have or resolve an SDT, and when you don't you're going to be in a lot of trouble.
3. Guile is not nearly as invulnerable as you make it out to be. Swords to Plowshares, the best and most prevelant removal spell in Legacy, kills it as dead as anything. You could certainly argue that if you have a counter in hand, or CB-Top on the board, Guile is nearly completely unremovable, but the same is true of ANY win-condition in that case. Also, running only one Guile is more vulnerable to things like Meddling Mage, or Cranial Extraction (not likely at all, but the possibility exists). Guile itself is a possibility as a singleton win condition in conjuction with things like Morphling and Rainbow Efreet (or Meloku), but I don't think there's anything to gain by running nothing but Guile in that slot.
4. The final problem is twofold. First off, your list, as is, will never win a single game against Goblins. Ever. You don't have nearly enough midgame tools, Counterbalance Top is surprisingly awful against Goblins, to hold off the rush that they will lob continuously at your face. You don't even have Hydroblast or Chill coming out of the board to help you there. Second, you don't have a single answer throughout the entire MD and SB to Nimble Mongoose. Your only answer is to resolve a Guile and block it. I would imagine the odds for that occurring are pretty low, especially since you only have Brainstorm and SDT to dig you to it and not much to hold the line with when Thresh starts dropping Goyfs, Werebears, or whatever else they have. Echoing Truth is your best answer, but that's temporary, and Shackles is never going to be allowed to resolve if the Threshold player has any clue what they're doing at all.
Thanks for the replies guys. I'll try and work on the list a bit, and post a new one later today.
The land count hasn't been a problem, but i think your right on the shackles count, i dropped 3 on the board once, and was like, AHH!
I might splash for another color for EE, or Keg? Has either been proven better?
Guile seems pretty good by himself. Short of the 1 card that can stop him (StP) you are fine, so i think he is ok as the only win con. If they mage him, i shackle the mage and eat face!
Your right, i need some sort of CA. What do you guys think is best, cheap fast CA like AK, and cantrips, or long term and powerful CA like Fact or Fiction?
Thanks for your help guys, this list i threw together in a couple of hours, so i expected comments to help it out.
Thanks
I'n my mind neither is better than the other. Keg leaves the deck more redundant and doesn't require a splash, and EE has speed on it's side. They both have their pro's and con's, it really depends on the build you are gearing towards. I have favored EE lately, but I wouldn't consider it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by APriestOfGix
The problem with Guile, compared to the other standard win conditions that Mono-U runs (Morphling, Efreet, Meloku), is that Guile doesn't have the ability to protect himself. Every other win condition in MUC has an ability that allows you to save resources for other opposing threats and not waste them on your win condition. This is very important in keeping MUC efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by APriestOfGix
Fact or FictionQuote:
Originally Posted by APriestOfGix
Also, CounterTop is horrible in MUC as I stated at the end of page 25, and Kadaj stated above.
Merchant Scroll is pure utility, especially in builds with light splashes as you have to cut some of the cards that you would run a full 3 copies or even playset of in pure MUC (Repeal / Truth, FoF).
I played a list with exactly one Scroll and it was every time useful when it came up =P:
T 2/3: get the (2nd?) FoW against fast combo (especially Belcher was a lot easier then), however an extra FoW is always nice.
Mid- / Lategame:
1. get the 3rd or 4th Accu / 2nd FoF
2. get another counter for control
3. let your opponent resolve an EtW and get Echoing Truth =P
Funny enough that 1 felt pretty perfect for the moment...
So did anyone test it, too?
Doks
Alright guys this might not belong here, but this deck I created was inspired by this thread. I have been winning alot of games with it including a match against a MUC list simmilar to the ones here.
Mana Base:
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Counters:
4 Rune Snag
4 Force of Will
Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction
The Good Stuff:
1 Morphling
4 Trinket Mage
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalkin Shackels
3 Back to Basics
SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Forbid
1 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
4 Echoing Truth
My Idea was to speed up the deck adding better draw and disruption while not losing the stable manabase and b2b.
The 3 Ancient Tomb/3 Chrome mox Combination explained:
Ancient tomb enables simply broken plays in legacy and with this deck I tryed to maximize its colorless mana. With Chrome Mox it can drop bombs like first turn chalice/trinket mage/b2b/schackles (not good till you drop some islands) useful against decks playing counters or discard. They also enable the excellent draw engine of Fact or Fiction and Thirst for Knowledge. Their mana boost offsets their card disadvantage making them a necessary evil. You might notice that im playing tomb in a b2b deck... Well it turns out it doesnt matter too much because after you use tomb a couple times the lifeloss will make it unattractive and usless anyway. Because both of these are bad in multiples are 3 of and if you draw an extra you can hope to brainstorm it away or pitch it to TFK.
Trinket Mage:
SO SO SO good. It is strictly card advantage. Not only is mage card advantage, but the cards he snags are also card advantage. Explosives has been mentioned before in this thread. I have found it amazing when you have 7 ways to draw it.
Being able to maindeck Chalice of the Void is so sweet. I ran two Coppies MD because against high curves its not stellar, and i have mages to grab it. In one game against 43 land (a good matchup because b2b is nearly always gg). I had dropped and early Shackels and my opponent had loam engine going well. I topdecked an early COTV and set it at 2 locking him out of the game. COTV creates so much virtual card advantage its almost always a must answer card.
Everything else in my list is pretty common MD except for TFK which i think is better in the build i play which runs more artifacts.
I still need to do more testing, if anyone wants to test with me on mws drop me a pm, but i fear my list has the worst matchup against the gobs........frowntown...
I like that idea. Trinket Mage seems like he'd do very well here. I've got 2 issues with your list:
- Why only 2 Chalice? With the Chrome Moxes and Tombs, I'd think 4 would be much better.
- Why no Back to Basics? I don't belive it's not a viable option because you run 3 nonbasics.
Interesting idea cooldude. The list you posted is only 55 cards. I think we can make more of the dec if you give us a complete list. If you are running no needles or tops I'd have to say that Trinketmage can't be all that good if you have only 2 different targets both of which are situational (EE for 1 ain't that great) and chalice set at any casting cost steals some of your own spells.