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R/B Anti-Enchantment options are small, that is sure, but between Mad Auntie and Wort, Boggart Auntie, the only thing you need fear is most (which could be a serious problem).
I am not sure how you could reliably bypass that, actually. SB Tombstalker could work, or possibly some SB flying Goblins. Wort can keep brining them back and Mad makes them pretty big, so winning isn't a problem. You could also SB SGC and bring it in against decks that run these powerful anti-attack measures.
Here is my list I'm thinking about after Lorwyn comes out
Creatures:
4X Goblin Piledriver
4X Goblin Lackey
4X Goblin Matron
4X Goblin Warchief
4X Mad Auntie
3X Gempalm Incinerator
3X Boggart Mob
2X Mogg Fanatic
2X Siege-Gang Commander
2X Goblin Ringleader
1X Wort, Boggart Auntie
1X Goblin Tinkerer
Lands:
4X Wasteland
4X Badlands
4X Bloodstained Mire
3X Swamp
4X Mountain
Other:
4X Thoughtseize
4X Aether Vial
The side board it be something like this:
4X Pyrokenisis
4X Chalice
4X Leyline of the Void/Extirpate???
1X Tinkerer???
2X ????
Should Knucklebone witch be in there?
I think a lot of you are overdoing this black splash.
Auntie and Wort are pretty good, but probably aren't going to make the deck with Thoughtseize coming in. My build looks like this, pretty straightforward. A second Siege-Gang is an option, too.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
so you're splashing black just for thoughtsieze?
Not entirely. Sideboard allows me Some combination of Duress/Therapy, as well as Planar Void.Quote:
Originally Posted by DURESSyou92
I don't think I'll run a black removal spell due to Pyrokinesis being generally awesome and Thoughtseize hitting Tarmogoyfs on occasion (And Planar Void making them small!), but if I did it'd be Smother.
Uhm... Thoughtseize is clearly better than Duress, but in Goblins is it better than Therapy?
Crib Swap 2W
tribal instant shapeshifter
Changeling
remove target creature from the game. Its controller puts a 1/1 colorless shapehifter creature with changeling into play.
So...now you get some tutorable and Ringleader-able Goyf removal...wow, Goblins REALLY looks good after Lorwyn.
If they provide the resources, we should use them. Honestly I think you are underestimating the Black Splash. It provides options against every combo deck, between Therapy, Thoughtseize, and Void, as well as repeating card advantage, Wort, Boggart Auntie, and probably the best global pump Goblin to date, Mad Auntie (incidentally she can also help to hold your Goblin line through her regen ability).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Siege-Gang's time for MD slots has come and past. The deck needs to rely more heavily on disruption than speed and almost no one is currently running the type of defenses Siege-Gang is needed to bypass anyway. The simple fact he taxes your Vials and mana base to the limit is no longer worth what he gives in return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
Wow,, yes, that card looks Really good, only problem it cost 3 mana, but can be Matronned-Ringleadered... And the token being created let your Gempalm do more damage....
Mirror Entity casting cost 2W
Creature Shapeshifter
Changeling
X: creatures you control become X/X and gain all creature types until end of turn.
1/1
Now this seems to cost just one mana too much to be playable, but at least it's worth mentioning, as it is some Overrun-like effect (tutorable, Ringleader-able, etc etc), and there are already some nice cards in white (Pyroclasm protection, pseudo-Swords).
Woodland Changeling 1G
Creature - Shapeshifter Common
Changeling (This card is every creature type even if this card isn't in play.)
2/2
...but this Shapeshifter, on the other hand, while unspectacular, might be played in Rg, because I think the two-cc-slot is very hard to fill, and a 2/2 Goblin for two might come in handy for the curve.
Responses fail me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
First of all, if you read -anything- I said, I don't underestimate the black splash at all. I intend to -run- the black splash. You don't have to sell Thoughtseize, Therapy, or Void to me. (And yes, Thoughtseize is the better maindeck Choice over Therapy by a mile.)
However, just because black goblins exists doesn't mean we should run them. We should only run them if they're better than the current goblins, and I don't believe they are short of maybe Wort, Boggart Auntie.
Siege-Gang Commander is a core necessity as it's the only thing in the deck that provides reach and bails your ass out of situations you couldn't touch otherwise. You might can cut down to one with a Wort, but that's about it. That reach can be 8-10 straight to the dome in a stalled midgame, and dropping it off a Lackey in a damage race is huge.
And why is Mad Auntie suddenly all that and a bag of chips? Goblin King wasn't good enough for its pump effects or being an answer to Plague, and I refuse to believe that dropping a colored mana symbol and adding a negligible regeneration effect suddenly makes it warrant multiple slots. The Auntie's good, but you don't have a lot of slots to play with if you're maindecking Vial and Thoughtseize in groups of four. Assuming 23 land, that's 31 of your slots right there. Lackey, Fanatic, Piledriver, Matron, Warchief, Incinerator, and Ringleader is another 27 at the minimum, which leaves you full up on slots after 1 Siege-Gang and 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie. So where does Mad Auntie fit in, exactly? Hardly anywhere.
Mirror Entity is a very interesting 1-of, but white in Goblins seems to be a reach compared to red or green.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
Woodland Changeling is crap. Tin-Street Hooligan would be a much stronger option, and R/G builds can't even find room for 4 Tin-Streets. The 1 toughness isn't worth losing the artifact kill and the ability to be played off of red instead of green.
Has any one tried MD Leyline of the Void? Cephalid and Ichorid scoop to it, combo can't Infernal Tutor into Ill Gotten Gains for the win, Tarmogoyf, Werebear and Nimble Mongoose become managable and there are some marginal gains against Life from the Loam/Crucible of Worlds, Survival and Landstill. Considering the format is starting to look a lot like Vintage, looking at their metagamed Goblins deck might not be a bad idea.
I've seen MD Leyline, MD Tormod's, but personally I prefer SB Planar Void. Although it comes down a turn later (if it is in your opening hand) it can really beat up on Tarmogoyf, is much easier to play if NOT in your opening hand, and still messed up Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. (Note that Breakfast will try to just bounce it)
Goblins in Vintage runs Leyline maindeck. There was also a Goblins deck in the T8 at the recent Duals Tournament in Hadley, MA that ran some amount of Tormod's Crypts maindeck. I think it was 3.
On another note, I've dropped my land count back to 22 from 23. Having a ton of lands was really only useful in the mirror. In the meta right now where you won't play the mirror that often, I'd rather have some utility guys, like Sharpshooter or Stingscourer. That guy has proved to be very awesome. He bounces Goyfs so you can swing for the win or nails some other blocker on turn 2 to let your Lackey connect.
I know the deck is already insanely crowded, but one card that I haven't seen any discussion of that's an easy solution to the Goyf-on-Gob violence issue is Frenzied Goblin.
He essentially "kills" one of your opponents' blockers for R as long as he's on the board - and as long as the blocker is targetable by red creatures. He's a card that isn't that flashy and feels worthless, but does something really, really useful... like getting lackey past that 'goyf when its too big for incinerator. I don't think he'd be good as a 4-of or anything, but a singleton copy seems like a pretty useful option to have.
Okay. Assuming you aren't running black, and are sticking with R/W or R/G, what's the correct graveyard hate for the board? Crypt or Leyline?
EDIT: Second point of discussion. Battle Squadron has been errataed to a Goblin. Is this feasible as a big flying finisher?
There are 3 and 4 cc gobbos in lorwyn that are nice.
Vial don't seem good if many of your gobbos are >3 cc, it become too slow. Did anyone think about a goblin version with higher cc and Chrome Mox + Ancient Tomb to accelerate them?
Wort, Boggart Auntie in particular, seems good, surviving pyroclasm and taking back your dead gobbos, and making for the card disadvantage of chrome mox.
That deck could be a blast even without lackey/vial start, with turn 1 Matron, turn 2 Ringleader/Wort, turn 3 SGC. Even turn 1 piledrive, turn 2 warchief, turn 3 matron-> piledriver win seems good.
Did anyone tried something like that?
I posted one a few pages back. For reference:
I haven't worked on it much since and it could probably utilize some splash. I just felt like trying how mono-red works, but Rb, Rw and Rg all look superior now. Boggart Mob and Wort both look amazing for Rb and Mad Auntie isn't horrible either (although probably not good enough to play). One awesome feature about the black Goblins is that their coloured black costs are limited to B, so they're all splashable. Wort is the hardest to cast since he costs RB so you need a black source and another coloured source, but since it costs 4, that ought to be doable more often than not. But yea, the Tomb/Mox plan is perfectly functional. Wasteland becomes more of a problem this way though since the deck only runs 22 lands. The acceleration really helps though. Especially the Threshold (UGr most importantly) is greatly improved with the addition of multiple Stingscourgers and Goblin Goons, the lower number of Gempalms and the ability to cast big guys early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Hmmm,, that looks nice, i like the fast mana :)
Anyone tested the Battle Squadron?
Mvg
i black gobs really viable that we lose the ability to deal with eng. plague which is kinda rampant in most sb's