[Discussion] Hulk Flash

Current list I'm trying is:

2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 Protean Hulk
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kikki Jikki
1 Summoners Egg

4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Duress
4 Daze
4 Flash
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will

no board as of yet

This was built to try and improve the thresh match I realize its more vulnerable to stp but the four duresses and not having so many bad cards seem worth it.

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Originally Posted by Meeee

Current list I'm trying is:

2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 Protean Hulk
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kikki Jikki
1 Summoners Egg

4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Duress
4 Daze
4 Flash
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will

no board as of yet

This was built to try and improve the thresh match I realize its more vulnerable to stp but the four duresses and not having so many bad cards seem worth it.

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The build it not bad but I still think the Disciple build wins since its not subject to creature hate of any kind. I cut ESG all together for Gemstone Cavern. I think I have 1 in my build.

Shit, I guess I waited too long to buy my Flashes. :/

This really speculation but what of this sideboard for a pre-FS build

4 Comandeer
4 Meddling mage
4 Stiffel
3 Tombstalker

Its obviously for the Hulk mirror.

Against other flash combo's you steal there flash and lay down 3 meddling mages naming Flash, bounce spell, other card. And then just beat them to death. Also meddling mage won't be a dead card during the game, and it pitchable to FOW and comandeer. Stiffel for obvious reasons.

The rest of the cards should be abel to deal with tog and fish builds, but i have no clue what to put there; so i just put in an alternate win condition. Fish and tog builds beat the combo so in that case i'll board out the combo for some two mana 5/5's. Anyway im just trying to build a deck that is good against the mirror since that looks like the most important matchup.

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Originally Posted by Cire

This really speculation but what of this sideboard for a pre-FS build

4 Comandeer
4 Meddling mage
4 Stiffel
3 Tombstalker

Its obviously for the Hulk mirror.

Against other flash combo's you steal there flash and lay down 3 meddling mages naming Flash, bounce spell, other card. And then just beat them to death. Also meddling mage won't be a dead card during the game, and it pitchable to FOW and comandeer. Stiffel for obvious reasons.

The rest of the cards should be abel to deal with tog and fish builds, but i have no clue what to put there; so i just put in an alternate win condition. Fish and tog builds beat the combo so in that case i'll board out the combo for some two mana 5/5's. Anyway im just trying to build a deck that is good against the mirror since that looks like the most important matchup.

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what about no meddling mages because its 2 colors, no tombstalker and add 4x leyline of the void and something against aggro control? It kills mirror and is uncounterable. With your slew of counters, you should be able to protect it from a measley bounce spell.

What about Twincast for the mirror lol.

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Originally Posted by iOWN

Shit, I guess I waited too long to buy my Flashes. :/

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Feel free to buy mine. They are listed on Ebay right now. I'm going to play Life, (the other stupid deck).

Oh, and as for the mirror:

Twincast, Commandeer or Flash in response for 4 Essence Warden & 2 Soul Warden. Ha!

Instead of losing 32 life, gain 55 and have board control. Better yet, 4 Essence Warden and True Believer for 58.

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Originally Posted by android

Feel free to buy mine. They are listed on Ebay right now. I'm going to play Life, (the other stupid deck).

Oh, and as for the mirror:

Twincast, Commandeer or Flash in response for 4 Essence Warden & 2 Soul Warden. Ha!

Instead of losing 32 life, gain 55 and have board control. Better yet, 4 Essence Warden and True Believer for 58.

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Sigh....if your opponent is not horrible your triggers will go on the stack first, which means you die first regardless, even if you have 1000 Soul Wardens in play. (Active player's abilities go on the stack first).

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Originally Posted by android

...or Flash in response for 4 Essence Warden & 2 Soul Warden. Ha!

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If you are able to resolve a flash, why the hell wouldn't you just get DotV+Artifacts FTW?

And, yeah, as Happy said, the opponent can just go off during your turn and you will get screwed my APNAP.

What abilities? If True Believer is in play, their abilities do jack shit.

What am I not understanding about the resolution of my copy of Flash?

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Originally Posted by android

What abilities? If True Believer is in play, their abilities do jack shit.

What am I not understanding about the resolution of my copy of Flash?

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When did you mention True Believer?

I understand what he meant by triggers and active players so I obviously concede the fact that Wardens alone would not be the way to go. You must have read my post as I was making the edit about True Believer which would pair up nicely with Plaxmanta maybe. At any rate, I kind of suck at magic even though me and Al Gore invented this deck last year before Flash was broken.

In actuality, the Pre-FS deck wouldn't be hard at all to determine. It's 8 slots you free up are all determined on how much hate/mirrors you expect. And to be honest, the Post-FS list is not retarded to prepare, since even if we see this wreck the GP, we'd still get in a week + of casual playing with Pacts before we see it banned on June 1st. No harm in winning a few local tournies with the new cards.

If you don't forsee a metric ton of mirror matches, the 4 Summoners Pact -> Worldy Tutor to setup a turn later (or a brainstorm sooner), and the 4 Pact of Negations turn into more protection or search (in my decks case, I'd get my 2 Chain of Vapors, 4th Daze and 4th Scroll) or something like that.

As for mirror matches, I'd say Commandeer in the maindeck is a solid choice. If not, this deck has no reason whatsoever to NOT play Trickbind vs mirror maindecked, as you've got the turn 0 ability to use it.

So if that were the case, I'd advocate these changes:

-4 Pact of Negation
-4 Summoners Pact
+2 Worldly Tutor
+3 Commandeer
+3 Trickbind

I say Trickbind over Stifle for obvious reasons, being that your "mirror" is highly dependant on whether or not your playing against a Caverns/ESG version, or the slower but supposedly more consistent versions.

Oh and I really feel the need to chime in on this, being that before the B&R showed Dragon itself banned I was working on a new version, and playing it's "better build" in T1 for years since. Dragon was a 2 card combo, it was Dragon + reanimation. He's how you go infinite, Bazaar was merely a setup card (like Intuition, only much faster/more unstable). If you had neither Dragon in graveyard, or reanimation in hand, you don't win. I've had many games where I never saw a Bazaar and I still won, because you can cast/reanimate Trike, Witness, Ancestral, and Necromancy (same with old 1.5 using Queen and Laquatus). If the creatures are in play, you no longer need your graveyard or deck, just a reanimated Dragon, and some mana sources.

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Originally Posted by Drathro

Nice outside-the-box thinking. It certainly has potential. I don't like that it has a large window of susceptibility to taregted removal, but that's the price you pay for having a smaller kill suite - you open yourself to more hate, and you have to rely on counters in hand.

Honestly, the biggest problem permanent will be Leyline of the Void, which is why tutoring for bounce is probably a better answer than this.

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Thanks.

But the problem is, the 3 creature combo already leaves a window open for targetted removal. And well, if they have Leyline out, your Hulk won't trigger either, so that's not a problem that can be solved with creatures (or at least, not with creatures you can fetch with Hulk).

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Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO

Oh and I really feel the need to chime in on this, being that before the B&R showed Dragon itself banned I was working on a new version, and playing it's "better build" in T1 for years since. Dragon was a 2 card combo, it was Dragon + reanimation. He's how you go infinite, Bazaar was merely a setup card (like Intuition, only much faster/more unstable). If you had neither Dragon in graveyard, or reanimation in hand, you don't win. I've had many games where I never saw a Bazaar and I still won, because you can cast/reanimate Trike, Witness, Ancestral, and Necromancy (same with old 1.5 using Queen and Laquatus). If the creatures are in play, you no longer need your graveyard or deck, just a reanimated Dragon, and some mana sources.

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Most of the players on these boards played old 1.5 as well. I can tell you from personal experience against the deck that it was fast but fragile as hell. I always thought it funny when my opponent attempted to go off with FoW as the only protection spell. :laugh: Bazzar made FoW useless. The BR version on the other hand had duress and Unmask. I also remember the kill condition which was Hellkite and Sliver Queen. Either way, it was still a very fragile combo deck compaired to Hulk Flash.

oh yeah, a NEW combo deck that can off off insainly fast...


and sadly Wizards is NEVER going to fix it...

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Originally Posted by dragon_demon1

oh yeah, a NEW combo deck that can off off insainly fast...


and sadly Wizards is NEVER going to fix it...

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Oh they will, don't worry. But unfortunately it will be after the GP, the biggest tournament of the year. People who are thinking about trying out the format for the first time might never come back if they get paired against this pile. I don't like what it does to this format. People can't play cool decks anymore. :cry:

I accuse this deck of making Legacy unfun, and for that reason alone it should be banned. It remindes me alot of stax in old 1.5 except the deck costs 1/20th as much.

In case you don't remember Stax beat practically every deck in the format but the cost of Workshops made it prohibitive. This on the other hand you can put together for a grand total of $125-160.

That's not really true. People who are trying this out for the first time will have the ability to see first-hand that this format is potential for broken, and want to see what else it's capable of.

Not to mention, with all of the people literally crying out loud for the DCI to pick up on this and get rid of Hulk/Flash, it's not going to surprise any of the newbs that this deck was a complete surprise, and not at all what the format was used to. Anyone that's going to the GP will have at least done their homework, or else they really don't belong in the format for long anyways.

As I see it, there more than likely will not be an emergency ban, due to the numbers not being shown to DCI/Wizards through a large scale tournament. Since that is the case, I say what we should be doing now (and this is also a request for a new/cropped thread, please. I'm so tired of scouring pages of "OMGWTFBBQ" just for a single smattering of possible updates to the deck...nearly 30 pages in less than a week is just disgusting for N/D) is trying to optimize this list to at least 90% ability/protection, smash GP with it, and give Wizards the go-ahead that the results are in. For those that do not want to play this deck, take the next couple of weeks to build the most absurd and off the wall anti-Flash deck (if you can), or just bring what you have. A strong showing of this deck smashing will result in a ban of something, and if we can't beat it, we'll at least get rid of it.

I for one still want Flash in the environment, even if Hulk is gone. There's just too much untested with this card, and it's power level is absolutely dependent on WHAT it puts into play. If we can prove it's Flash and not Hulk, then looks like Flash would bite it later on.

no, Wizards has taken a hands off policy to Legacy, they saw creatures (goblins) owning, and said no we'll wait it out, and look 2 years later goblins is no longer king, but come on Hulk Flash makes magic unfun...


that said, im buying up my copies while people still have false hope the deck will get the ax, Wizards will NEVER ban the deck June 1st, and if they EVER do it will take a few times, since they keep a watch list...


the most likly thing that will happen is an eratta on Flash to put it back, cause Wizards just dosn't care about us, and they don't ban things here.


Too bad it's not like old T2 Affinity and Hulk Flash gets Hulk, Flash, Pact, Pact, and some 4 other cards banned to COMPLEATLY destroy it...

Dragon, have you even been listening to Akki?

The errata WILL NOT GO BACK. The work they would have to put into putting a power level errata BACK onto a card legal in MTGO play environment for one is not worth it to them.

At the point that Goblins was degenerate, they weren't the only degenerate deck of the time. Food Chain was an unstable combo, but in the hands of a skilled player, was consistent and could devastate. Same with Dragon, once you piloted it for a while, those 4 FoW and 4 Duress were all you needed. Stax, well that deck was just downright rude. I saw more people scoop to that deck in 1.5 and (still) in T1 than Affinity/Clamp in pre-banning T2.

Post bannings, we haven't seen anything just downright wreck the format like this. Vial Goblins was and still is an amazing deck, that's true. But the hate against it is 1) easy to put into effect for most decks, and 2) very solid choices of hate. This deck doesn't have either of those going against it, either the hate requires a majority of ones sideboard to be put against it, or an overhaul of the maindeck itself, geared against it.

If the deck puts up numbers, it WILL be seen. It's the exact same thing for T2, if 75%+ of the field is either "Flash" or "No-Flash", the environment is unhealthy. Regardless of if Legacy is the last of the 5 constructed formats they care about (I'd say even block constructed sees more attention), if the format is completely biased on a deck or those few decks that could somewhat compete with them, they'll do something.