[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Wanted to post this for those interested in SITES,

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Contract
4 Duress
7 Kobolds
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Lands

The idea here is to graft the Burning Wish/Empty the Warrens/Simian Spirit Guide engine on top of the Draw 4s to force your opponent to counter the acceleration or face an army of Goblins. The main difference is cutting Infernal Tutor (IMO the worst engine in Storm) and replace it with Burning Wish to reach a Recurring Insight, Balance of Power or Diminishing Returns as suplimental engines while getting the normal Empty the Warrens and Draw 4 to start the chain. While I still think Pact SI has an advantage in the sense it's creature slots double as "counter target Daze" and help cast Cabal Ritual, SITES works in a similar sense by turning the kill condition into an uncounterable threat and forcing the opponent to target the acceleration in the deck instead of the Draw 4s and Burning Wish does a pretty awesome job of being a less LED dependent threat itself. Anyway, with the amount of acceleration and bombs in this deck, ripping a Reccuring Insight looks pretty sick and easily in our mana production.

Might be a more solid approach at this point?

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Agreed. Infernal Tutor really is bad when you could be playing Burning Wish, which is made easier by using Kobolds. I think that Cabal Therapy looks stronger than duress in this case, especially since it makes EtW +1 storm, which can make all the difference sometimes. The only disadvantages of reverting to this list is that the D4's are worse in SITES. 14 business means you are drawing significantly less quality cards, terrible hands like 2 Chrome Mox, Land, Therapy, and less business. 16 business means you can dig for more business more often, and Land Grant/Pact allow you to thin your library a little to improve D4 card quality (and Manamorphose, if you play it, draws gives you D5's).
I like how you want to run D7's as Burning Wish targets. I was thinking the same thing 4cc, 5cc, 6cc gives you pretty much your average amount of mana floating after a Burning Wish + LED. Pact SI better utilizes card space to produce mana, often floating more mana after a Burning Wish + LED when setting up a D7. Burning Wish is a great way to access the D7's but I think this strategy can also be incorporated into other builds, namely Pact SI as my testing with it (replacing Chrome Mox with SSG and 4 Manamorphose) revealed that it can support red. Though Summoner's Pact is not tech with EtW, we aren't always forced to play it (especially with , and post board we switch it out for Xantid Swarm anyway.
Right now I don't have the Badlands to make SITES. I can play it in Pact SI though.

Pact SI:
Business:
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain

Mana:
1 Wild Cantor
1 Odious Trow
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 SSG
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Recurring Insight
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Goblin Charbelcher

I almost want to put Null Profusion in that list instead of EtW even though the SSG for Chrome Mox is bad in this case (same with ESG). Then again Summoner's Pact finds you creatures so it drawing you 2 cards (Manamorphose does the same thing) and Pacts thin the deck to make the draws off of Null Profusion better. I'll test both lists. Maybe in the board -1 Belcher (postboard against aggro) +1 IGG?

I do like the SITES list though. I'll pick me up some Badlands.

EDIT:
Couldn't such lists also support Doomsday? We can make Burning Wish piles now.



EDIT2!:
Woah, I just realized something amazing. Final Fortune, Last Chance, or Warrior's Oath allow us to take an extra turn, which usually isn't too impressive in SI, but it becomes another D7 if you have already played Recurring Insight.

If I take a look at your latest list (@Vacrix): Why do you still run Odious Trow without Chrome Moxen and without Unmask? Couldn't there be a better use for that slot?

Also a little playing guideline question:

Unknown opponent, I'm on the play:

2xRitual, 1xDraw 4, 1xLand Grant, 1xLotus Petal, 1xESG, 1xSummoner's Pact

Land Grant and use Bayou mana to start, or keep hand hidden and use Petal ana to start and risk ending up without red mana?

Well you can cast Odious with Ritual Mana, which is sometimes pretty significant. Sure that slot could probably be another piece of business like Belcher or something. Its not necessarily an optimized list.

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Unknown opponent, I'm on the play:

2xRitual, 1xDraw 4, 1xLand Grant, 1xLotus Petal, 1xESG, 1xSummoner's Pact

Land Grant and use Bayou mana to start, or keep hand hidden and use Petal ana to start and risk ending up without red mana?

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Likely you should start with Bayou. You have ESG so you don't run the risk of eating Daze, and you have multiple initial black sources. I doubt your opponent will Force the Land Grant. You won't really risk not having red mana. Pact --> Wild Cantor is always an option, especially considering you have the ESG to cast it, and you still have Lotus Petal in hand (and you might run into more Lotus Petals, Pact's, or Manamorphose). Either way, if you are up against U.dec you are going to get your D4 FoW'd if he has it so revealing Land Grant doesn't really give your opponent too much information. If you had access to double D4's though, then you might want to hide the Land Grant and try to ramp with your rituals first. Otherwise he might decide to counter the 2nd ritual and leave you unable to cast either D4.


Also, I'm thinking about using Erayo, Soratami Ascendant as a protection spell. Its pretty bomb against control if it resolves after 4 spells: it prevents the opponent from gaining card quality with cantrips, and significantly slows down their clock, while they also need 2 spells every time they want to counter something. It looks pretty good to me, if we can find the blue to support it, likely with Manamorphose and Lotus Petal.

Problem is, that you can't feed him to Ctw without having to face the possible consequences, whereas Swarm is perfect for this purpose.

Burning Wish into D7 is monstrous, also the extra D4 in the board has helped me in quite a few games.

What about Dosan the Falling Leaf main ?

Wow. He'd be half-decent if he costed 1 less. :/ I don't think we can get to 1GGBBB just to successfully cast some D4's. We might as well just play Duress in that case, or Cabal Therapy.

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Problem is, that you can't feed him to Ctw without having to face the possible consequences, whereas Swarm is perfect for this purpose.

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Could you explain this further? I don't understand. Which consequences? If you play Dark Ritual (without a green/red source in hand you can't go for Wild Cantor, this happens) then you can play Pact-->Trow, play Trow with black mana, then play Culling. Thats the line of play I'm talking about.

Which list are you using btw? Mine or Breathweapon's? Have you been able to get to UU without LED?

Also, in the Pact variant, I think that Cabal Therapy looks really strong in the board. If we can go, Burning Wish--> Cabal Therapy, Pact--> Arbor/Cantor, Flashback, Tendrils, we just created a bunch of storm (5 w/ arbor, 6 with cantor) with those 2 cards (Bwish and Pact).

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Could you explain this further? I don't understand. Which consequences? If you play Dark Ritual (without a green/red source in hand you can't go for Wild Cantor, this happens) then you can play Pact-->Trow, play Trow with black mana, then play Culling. Thats the line of play I'm talking about.

Which list are you using btw? Mine or Breathweapon's? Have you been able to get to UU without LED?

Also, in the Pact variant, I think that Cabal Therapy looks really strong in the board. If we can go, Burning Wish--> Cabal Therapy, Pact--> Arbor/Cantor, Flashback, Tendrils, we just created a bunch of storm (5 w/ arbor, 6 with cantor) with those 2 cards (Bwish and Pact).

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Sorry if I've been unprecise.

The above case is concerned with a comparison of Erayo/Xantid Swarm not Trow/Swarm. Culling the swarm is perfectly fine, whereas culling Erayo is not.

I played a bit with both, currently testing your list -Trow +Witness.

UU was always the result of LED. By the way I sometimes fuck up mid combo cause I forget there is a D4 in the wishboard :(

I thought about the Therapy too, for 3 mana extra storm + protection seems fine, I bet you also sometimes get to draw a Fow with the wish, also resulting in extra storm and 1 less dangerous card, but I might be wrong.

Oh I see what you are saying. I also should have been more specific. I wasn't considering it as a replacement for Swarm, but as an addition to Swarm. Swarm is simply too powerful to drop IMO, especially when we run the ESG's to cast it. I was thinking about splitting x2 Tomb and x2 Erayo, if Erayo is even worth running at all. Its true that we can't Culling it, but at the same time, it won't die like Swarm when your opponent topdecks STP (though I think your opponent can respond to it flipping and remove it if they already have STP in play). The reason to run it, though, is that it is active immediately, unlike Swarm, and once its active, you will be giving your opponent a really hard time (as it functions as more than just another protection spell, also inhibiting them from playing cantrips and making it hard for them to stick a clock on us). Especially with Burning Wish as bait, we can play Wish (which eats FoW), and then follow it up with Erayo, likely giving us enough time to sculpt a good hand. Its a really unconventional idea but I think its worth exploring.

Concerning your change to the list.. Its definitely the right call. Its extremely rare that I've needed to fetch Cantor AND Trow, especially with SSG over Mox. Consider one Belcher instead. Especially since Burning Wish is RFG, Diminishing Returns will yield much less business than the first time we draw our initial 7 so it might be worth running more in the MD.

I'm waiting to run into a hand like this:
SSG, Lotus Petal, Manamorphose, Land Grant, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual
T1: LG--> Bayou, Dark Ritual (BBB), Petal (RBBB), Manamorphose (using RB), adding UU (UUBB floating) (drawing random card), SSG (UUBBR floating), Cabal Ritual (UUBBBR) Burning Wish (UUBB), Diminishing Returns.

That hand can also go for EtW for 7, which isn't bad. Also, Manamorphose draws a card, so if its a manasource (which is likely), then there is also the possibility of going for Balance of Power or Recurring Insight with such a hand. I could go for Balance of Power if the Cabal Ritual was a 2nd Dark Ritual, and then if an additional mana source is drawn by Manamorphose then I could go for Recurring Insight. These lines of play look extremely powerful, though the conservative player might go for the EtW for 7/8.

Its also worth mentioning that, against aggro, Diminishing Returns is extremely powerful. When you can refill your opponents hand, Burning Wish into another D7 post-Diminishing Returns actually yields 7 cards instead of fewer (that is if you are on the play and your opponent emptied his hand). The only question is, will your opponent draw the full 7? If he sees knows the matchup, he might think to draw fewer cards so that we can't go off with another D7. If that happens, we should just go for EtW since they will have fewer resources in hand to deal with all the tokens.

Yeah Burning Wish will often draw FoW which means you can then start to go for your D4's or just play EtW. I wasn't really looking at Therapy as a protection spell but primarily as a way to generate more storm from a mediocre hand. I'm not sure what the hand would look like (if it can even be constructed).

Also, have you ever wanted IGG in the board?

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Concerning your change to the list.. Its definitely the right call. Its extremely rare that I've needed to fetch Cantor AND Trow, especially with SSG over Mox. Consider one Belcher instead. Especially since Burning Wish is RFG, Diminishing Returns will yield much less business than the first time we draw our initial 7 so it might be worth running more in the MD.

I'm waiting to run into a hand like this:
SSG, Lotus Petal, Manamorphose, Land Grant, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual
T1: LG--> Bayou, Dark Ritual (BBB), Petal (RBBB), Manamorphose (using RB), adding UU (UUBB floating) (drawing random card), SSG (UUBBR floating), Cabal Ritual (UUBBBR) Burning Wish (UUBB), Diminishing Returns.

That hand can also go for EtW for 7, which isn't bad. Also, Manamorphose draws a card, so if its a manasource (which is likely), then there is also the possibility of going for Balance of Power or Recurring Insight with such a hand. I could go for Balance of Power if the Cabal Ritual was a 2nd Dark Ritual, and then if an additional mana source is drawn by Manamorphose then I could go for Recurring Insight. These lines of play look extremely powerful, though the conservative player might go for the EtW for 7/8.

Its also worth mentioning that, against aggro, Diminishing Returns is extremely powerful. When you can refill your opponents hand, Burning Wish into another D7 post-Diminishing Returns actually yields 7 cards instead of fewer (that is if you are on the play and your opponent emptied his hand). The only question is, will your opponent draw the full 7? If he sees knows the matchup, he might think to draw fewer cards so that we can't go off with another D7. If that happens, we should just go for EtW since they will have fewer resources in hand to deal with all the tokens.

Yeah Burning Wish will often draw FoW which means you can then start to go for your D4's or just play EtW. I wasn't really looking at Therapy as a protection spell but primarily as a way to generate more storm from a mediocre hand. I'm not sure what the hand would look like (if it can even be constructed).

Also, have you ever wanted IGG in the board?

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I'm happy with Witness so far, it's another boost if you threaten to run out of business and your hand is full of Pacts/Mana(/LEDs), therefore essentialy turning your Pacts into another business spell. I remember having BBGG in the Pool, LED in play and Pact and Tendrils in the Hand, resulting in 2 extra storm, exactly enough for the win.

I think one situation where the Therapy could also be helpful is when the other player is holding Stifle, cause if he does he is less likely to Force a Burning Wish.

Regarding IGG: I remember I had one game where I cast Wish into a D-Spell (not exactly sure) where the outcome of the situation was dependent on my further draws, whereas with IGG it would have been a win.

Speaking of pactable businesses, how about Slithermuse? Besides being a draw n requiring a single U it's also abusable with Culling.

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Originally Posted by DireLemming

Speaking of pactable businesses, how about Slithermuse? Besides being a draw n requiring a single U it's also abusable with Culling.

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If it were green, it would be an auto-include. Unfortunately, Pact can only find green creatures. You can use it with Culling (though this situation is unlikely), but I think the main draw is that its a D7 for 4, which is definitely worth exploring. It makes for a nice Infernal Tutor target, especially since there are those occasions when we can only hit 4 mana post-tutor. I've considered running it over IGG but I never bothered to test it. I certainly will in the near future now that we are dabbling in D7's. Excellent suggestion.

Alright. Are you guys ready for this? Probably not:

Pact SI
Business (17)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain

Mana: (43)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Recurring Insight
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Hoarder's Greed(?)

I submit this as the fastest list I've ever played with. Period. Its downright destructive. Turn 1's flow like water. It took a little getting used to, but I'll certainly be switching over to this list once I pick up the cards.

As I said earlier, I was going to test Slithermuse in the IGG slot. Well its disgustingly good. Wild Cantor, Pact--> Cantor, Lotus Petal, and Manamorphose all allow you to fix for U. Unlike IGG, its a great topdeck often netting you 5-7 cards (w/out LED). Its much stronger than IGG after Infernal Tutor (so far) often letting you float that mana into more business instead of looping with IGG. The IGG loop requires you to have the right amount of mana AND the right rituals/LED, etc. Slithermuse requires you to float 3U after Infernal Tutor at the very least. Often you float more than 3U though which helps in the case that you don't draw any initial mana sources in your new 7. In short, Slithermuse is much better than IGG.

Like Breathweapon suggested, Burning Wish is awesome because it gives you access to D7's and it doesn't have a terrible conditional ability like Infernal Tutor. Initially I dropped Infernal Tutor completely, but then I thought, what if I could run both? Well so far, Infernal Tutor has been just as good if not better than Bwish now that I'm running Slithermuse. Bwish + LED usually leads to a D7, but now so does Infernal Tutor--> Slithermuse! Infernal Tutor also gives you access to a win condition (ToA) much like Bwish, even though you can't find EtW (I have yet to wish for it in playtesting).

The hardest part about playing this build is color fixing. You have to be REALLY careful with your mana. Wild Cantor is MVP in most games, especially if you draw Slithermuse. I only had trouble winning after a D7 once and it was Diminishing Returns (it was like a mull to 5 anyway). Balance of Power really is the strongest card in the board. I usually go for it even if I can get Recurring Insight because I like to float more mana into the D7 so I have yet to use Recurring Insight. As you might have noticed in the board, I'm thinking about using Hoarder's Greed as another 'oh shit' button. Believe it or not, we actually have a pretty high avg. cc out of our 60 cards. We don't run too many land so naturally its higher, especially with x8 Spirit Guides at 3cc each. I think that often it will only draw us 4 cards, but other times it might draw us way more, especially against aggro like Zoo that has a pretty low curve.

I have no idea how to go about boarding with this list though. If anyone has any ideas on this, please share (though I think -4 Pact +4 Swarm is standard, it might be worth Cutting Tomb for EtW postboard).

The Hoarder's Greed slot is still questionable. It could also be IGG, Hull Breach or something like that.

EDIT:
This might sound dumb, but I actually wished I had x1 Lab Rats in the board. I had 2 SSG, Petal, Culling the Weak, Bwish, D4, D4 in hand, and was unable to continue w/ B floating.. Maybe its worth a slot? Unless something another sorcery can make tokens for cheaper than B?

Also, I'm considering adding more Slithermuses into the MD. They are just too good. I love drawing them so why not? I'll cut some Infernal Tutors and see what happens.

EDIT2:
Yeah, 4 Slithermuse looks much better. The last spot I'll likely replace with ToA.

No Belcher anymore? :( Belcher + LED + 4 mana is pretty easy for this deck to achieve, it nets you random wins.

I'm still testing your older G/B Pact SI list (1 witness 1 odious) and don't feel comfortable enough to test variants yet (as I feel I wouldn't be able to tell the strengths and weaknesses between them yet). That said, I might test a single Slithermuse over IGG for fun. I also don't seem to be as down on Infernal Tutor as some others. With LED its insane, without it I've often just fetched extra rituals or a 2nd Tendrils with enough mana to cast both. At worst you imprint a Mox with it. Still its spot probably comes into question if you're adding Burning Wish.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Alright. Are you guys ready for this? Probably not:

Pact SI
Business (17)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain

Mana: (43)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Recurring Insight
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Hoarder's Greed(?)

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I really like this deck, but at this moment i really don't have access to them. do you think it's possible to run a build of SI close to that without using them ? If yes, what do you suggest ??

Thx in advance.

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Originally Posted by TheSleeper

No Belcher anymore? :( Belcher + LED + 4 mana is pretty easy for this deck to achieve, it nets you random wins.

I'm still testing your older G/B Pact SI list (1 witness 1 odious) and don't feel comfortable enough to test variants yet (as I feel I wouldn't be able to tell the strengths and weaknesses between them yet). That said, I might test a single Slithermuse over IGG for fun. I also don't seem to be as down on Infernal Tutor as some others. With LED its insane, without it I've often just fetched extra rituals or a 2nd Tendrils with enough mana to cast both. At worst you imprint a Mox with it. Still its spot probably comes into question if you're adding Burning Wish.

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Yeah Belcher is easy to cast. The idea that I'm exploring right now, though, is running Slithermuse instead of Belcher. Slithermuse is essentially a D7 so if you also have LED then winning shouldn't be difficult after that point. At least, that is the theory. I've had a little trouble color fixing. In this build, I'm thinking that I will need a different mana base for it to work, fetches instead of Land Grant. I felt really comfortable playing with x4 Infernal Tutor yesterday but today.. it doesn't seem to be working too well. I don't know why. Maybe the inconsistency of this version is showing the more I play it. Either way, I'll continue testing variations on D7 builds until I find one that is really consistent like the GB list. Is anyone else testing with D7's? If so, hows it working out?

@ claudio.r
I'm glad you like the deck, but I'm not sure what 'them' you are referring to. Can you be more specific? Are you missing something in particular?

@ SB: I would probably run 4 EtW, as I really appreciate the configuration of 4 BW, 3 Etw after boarding.

To what % of first turn kills do you think you can push the slithermuse buildings?

Well its unstable right now. The first 20 games I played, no joke. 20 Turn 1's on the play. Then I thought it was baller as hell so I posted that list and got all excited. Its certainly a fast ass list but it shows its inconsistencies the more you play with it. I didn't officially record any data on it yet because I'm still trying to fine tune it. I've played with x4 Slithermuse and it was alright. Getting to R for Bwish AND U for Slithermuse is too difficult so I dropped Slithermuse back to 1 and added Infernal Tutor back in. Its tricky indeed. I almost want another color fixer... I'm actually thinking about going with Crop Rotation and running Fetches instead of Land Grant. Without Belcher, there isn't much need to play Land Grant anyway. With Fetchlands, we are almost guarenteed a land in play, which makes Crop Rotation actually playable. We can turn it into a creature for Dryad Arbor, and it can act as a color fixer. Not sure if its good yet, but its certainly interesting and provides for some tech against Reanimator post-board. Thoughts on this approach?

EDIT:
Forgot to mention it really does shit on you sometimes. The advantage though is that you can mulligan down to 4 cards and still pull off a D7. Slithermuse, Petal x2, and Dark Ritual own me one game. Pretty awesome. You can also get way more mull to 5 turn 1's via Bwish-->D7 or Infernal-->Slithermuse. Mulliganing is the strongest that its ever been in SI. The problem is color fixing.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

@ claudio.r
I'm glad you like the deck, but I'm not sure what 'them' you are referring to. Can you be more specific? Are you missing something in particular?

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Lol, all that work to forget to mention the card! Sorry, i was referring to LED.

I doubt Slithermuse is superior to Meditate in SI, but as far as fetchlands are concerned you may as well use fetchlands if you aren't using Goblin Charbecher, you'll have uncounterable lands and you'll only lose out on Storm and Threshold (to a limited extent). Lands may actually be better for Pact SI in the long run, because then Xantid Swarm becomes a viable piece of disruption that could probably replace the Odious Trow slot as well. I know I've definitely wanted a 2nd Bayou in the deck on more than one occassion, so it'd definitely be worth experimenting with the Fetchland + Xantid Swarm set up for more stability.

To be honest, one thing I feel is really tricky is to decide whether to crack LED in response to a D4. Sometimes I play D4 with little or no black mana floating, then I actually have a tough time deciding if I should crack LED.