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i've been goldfishing the list that went 5-0 on mtgo a few weeks ago and it's quite fun. i played belcher at my last weekly and went 3-1, so i think it's fine to play spanish. you still have to be okay with losing to counters! also there's a lot of lightning bolts going around, so be careful with that as well.
That's good to hear. For whatever reason, I've never really got on with ANT. I'm just strugging to choose between Recross the Paths Belcher or PSI. I suppose it really comes down to whether I want black or red to go with my green. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
up to you. belcher is likely the more consistent deck but you won't get turn 1 kills as much. i haven't played recross version, it does interest me as a doomsday player, but haven't played it.
SI is a better turn 1 deck. it can also mulligan to 3 or 4....i guess it can mulligan to 2 on the draw and still potentially win on turn 1 (DR, draw4, mana source)
when i played belcher i ran blood moons in the sb which felt pretty strong in this meta. SI can't really do that. it also comes down to preference. there's certainly a lot more decisioning when it comes down to SI vs Belcher, i wouldn't necessarily define that as skill. there's still a lot of skill in playing some belcher hands out and mulligan decisions can be more complex depending on the matchup (although you don't have to and can just say f it)
Very interesting observations, thank you.
After messing about with both decks, I found I much preferred PSI to Belcher. It's just more fun. I'm currently putting together the following list to try taking to local events while I ease myself back into Legacy.
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
This is essentially the list from the primer swapping Eternal Witness for Empty the Warrens and Slithermuse for Ill-Gotten Gains. I have messed with the ToA to Belcher ratio somewhat due to the discussion on this point around pages 30-36.
My question, though, is about sideboarding. This is the sideboard I'm considering.
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
1 Forest
3 Empty the Warrens
3 ???
The Forest is because I don't have a Taiga and want a basic land for the grind game.
My basic plan is to -4 Pact, -4 Culling, -1 Arbor for +4 Carpet, +4 Duress, +1 Forest against anything blue. I also have -3 Belcher, +3 EtW for anyone running Leyline of Sanctity or Pithing Needle. Against anything else, I'm just going to try and race the hate.
Is this a reasonable plan? And is there anything useful I could be doing with those three spare slots?
Seems like (at least when i play the deck) slithermuse is an all-star, being able to tutor for it on the play is so satisfying. Also, quite often you will natural tendrils through draw fours, maybe up you toa to at least two. Just my 2 cents.
i'd recommend lowering the number of belchers to either 2 or 1. sometimes you can be dependent on using chrome mox and belcher doesn't provide anything. also hands with multiple belchers are quite poor.
i'm not sure that the maindeck empty the warrens is a good idea. a lot of times you will need the pact to generate mana, and you won't be able to attack the following turn because you'll be dead.
there's a list that went 5-0 a few weeks ago which ran a sb of
leyline of the void
carpet
lotus bloom
and 3 autumn's veil.
my guess is that carpet, bloom, veil came in for all the pact related cards and just decided to overwhelm the opponent. leyline is probably a nod to all the storm and reanimator on modo. if you're going to play leyline then you might want to also include a helm of obedience and/or play more ill-gotten gains.
Bought into the deck (still waiting for all the pieces to arrive), the latest 5-0 deck online.
I understand that Skullwinder is easier to cast than E.Witness, but letting the opponent get a counter back from the grave is a huge downside for me (unless you are playing with the Leylines of the void), so I might switch that with E.Witness.
I like the Dark Petition als tutor #5, don't know if it is exactly necessary though.
Is Lone Wolf still interesting? As extra, recurrable fodder if you don't go off that turn, or with therapy's from the side. (although if you need to pact the wolf, there might not be an extra turn :-)
In the side I was thinking about:
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Autumn of Veil
4 Thoughtseize/Duress/Unmask
Maybe changing the bloom's for 4 Xantid Swarms, against the bluedecks, although against control decks I see the plus side of the blooms.
Or maybe extra discard, I think for the cost of 1 card for Unmask (can discard a DRS and extras can be pitched to Chrome Mox), a free discard and secure feeling against counters might be worth it.
I'm also very willingly to play the man plan, but how good is Tomb of Urami in a field full of decays, fatal push and STP's? But you should assume they will board those cards out in game 2, but you never know. At least it is 'counterfree' (except against stifle) to activate it, assuming you don't drop it too soon ;-)
I'm now recording all my goldfishing (starting hands and kill cards), and EtW never shows up, so I agree that it's a sideboard card for certain matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Leylines in the side are very interesting; we mull so well that we can probably mull for them more aggressively than many other decks. I'll have to see how my meta shakes out, though, before deciding whether they make the cut.
Which build of the deck would you recommend to a Legacy veteran new to SI? The 5-0 MTGO list with 4 Pacts? I feel like the deck is in a good place for small FLGS tournaments now in the topless meta.
PSI is pretty well established but for 3-4 slots. These are used for culling targets (DRS, Skyshroud, Wild Cantor, etc), Infernal tutor targets (EtW, Slithermuse, IGG, etc) and utility slots (Manamorphose, Eternal Witness, etc). Play the ones that work for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
That said, I have considered -2 ToA, +2 Dark Petition. The number of times that I see ToA in my opening hand and wish it was a business spell...
Thanks! Based on a few hours of goldfishing, I think the following has been relatively easily approachable for a newbie like me:Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
1 ToA
2 Belcher
1 EtW
Thinking if I could fit 1 more Belcher/EtW into the MD somehow. This would save me 1 SB slot.
1 PiF
0 IGG
1 Slithermuse
0 Dark Petition
DP seems awful in my test opening hands because it requires 5 mana and 2 instants/sorceries in gy. I would rather just get to 4 mana and drop Belcher or cast EtW "blindly" in g1. Or spend 4 mana for PiF and start re-casting Dark Rituals. Or just hard cast Slithermuse "blindly".
0 Witness
0 Skullwinder
0 Manamorphose
0 Skyshroud (NOTE: Have not done any goldfishing with Skyshroud yet)
1 Wild Cantor
1 Tinder Wall
IMO Tinder Wall supports MD PiF better than Manamorphose due to Pacts and better than WC due to RR = +1 mana total, and increases the gy card count for Cabal Ritual better than SSG. Also having an additional CtW target castable with ESG mana doesn't hurt.
Witness and Winder seem terrible in my test opening hands. I prefer being able to get rid of all cards in my hand easily (even without LED or multiple Chrome Moxes) to enable IT and Slithermuse for greater profit.
This setup has enabled me to decrease my mulligan and fizzle rate while goldfishing. Not sure how well the setup will work after sideboarding vs a live opponent, though.
First, you are right to think that every pilot needs to tune his deck to his own particular decision tree. But let me flag up a few things.
In my opinion, it is generally wrong to have more than one of Slithermuse, Empty the Warrens, Ill-Gotten Gains, and Past in Flames in the deck. That is because these all answer the question 'what do I get with Infernal Tutor?' While each has their own strengths and weaknesses, and in any given situation one may be better than another, with limited deck space you generally can't afford more than one. And all of them are painful draw into (although IGG the least so).
Slithermuse is explosive, but unreliable. Think of every time you mull your starting seven: that could have been a Slithermuse fizzle. It also gets worse on the draw, or as the game goes on.
Empty the Warrens just wins. Unless you had to Summoner's Pact this turn.
Ill-Gotten Gains needs you to float at least one mana into it, to start off your chain again. It also only really works with Dark Rituals & LEDs in your graveyard. Hope they don't have GY hate!
Past in Flames also needs you to float at least one mana into it. It also only really works with lots of rituals in the Graveyard. Hope they don't have GY hate!
EtW aside, five is probably the correct number of kill spells. The ratio of ToA to GCB is a matter of taste. ToA can be imprinted, and you can just randomly win mid-combo by drawing into it. GCB is far more awkward, but there are plenty of starting hands that you would have to mull with with ToA that just win with GCB. As you say, though, the more GCB you have in your maindeck, the more SB space you free up.
I note that you've not mentioned Odious Trow/Deathrite Shaman. Do keep in mind that being able to Pact for black to imprint is very useful. Especially if you are running GCB heavy, as you will have fewer 'dead' spells to imprint with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
Thanks for the input!
1) I have not tested Skyshroud exactly because I don't believe it's worth running compared to WC, Tinder Wall and DRS. Storm count +1 with +5 life is negative for ToA math unless you have CtW to exploit it, and even then saving 1 green mana is very marginal corner case.
2) I used a mtgtop8 deck list as the basis, which had 1 IGG + 1 Slithermuse. I thought that 1 Slithermuse + 1 PiF was slightly "less clunky" than that, and would not allow the opponent to recover their used Spell Pierce / Daze / Surgical (some lines of play where we cast Land Grant can open us up for Surgical, especially if the opponent has more cards to board out than in for the MU -> Surgical in). It didn't cross my mind that I could only run only one card out of the three, and replace the second one with ToA/GCB/EtW. In this case, Slithermuse is the one to cut due to being the most conditional on t2+ and being off-color in addition to that. I guess I should goldfish a list without Slithermuse next.
3) Yes, I have been playing with DRS. Bayou, DRS, go is a potential T1 opening play. Potentially I get to exile opposing fetchland for mana before casting CtW to go off. Pacting DRS to imprint black to Chrome Mox is also a nice option or line of play.
Did a bunch of goldfishing with the following list, seems solid (flex slots in bold):
Sorcery (21)
4x Cruel Bargain
1x Dark Petition
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
2x Tendrils of Agony
Creature (7)
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Tinder Wall
1x Wild Cantor
Instant (16)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
4x Summoner's Pact
Artifact (14)
4x Chrome Mox
2x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
Land (2)
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
Currently wondering about sideboard plans.
Option 1:
Sideboard (15)
4x Carpet of Flowers
2x Duress
2x Empty the Warrens
4x Lotus Bloom
1x Taiga
2x Thoughtseize
Option 2:
4x Carpet of Flowers
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience
2x Thoughtseize
I think I am mostly concerned about non-blue Chalice MU (Eldrazi), which is quite popular in my metagame. Carpet of Flowers doesn't really help, and I am not 100% convinced about Lotus Bloom either if they play Chalice @ 0. How bad is t1 Chalice @ 0 or 1 or t1 Thorn of Amethyst against us when we are on the draw? I get that t1 Revoker naming Belcher can be nasty. Should I dedicate some slots to artifact hate (which hate?)? Or should I just purchase more Helm of Obediences for a transitional sb? Man plan sb does not really work vs Eldrazi.
EDIT:
My thinking vs Eldrazi:
1)
For artifact hate cards, I am considering Serenity, Hurkyl's Recall or Meltdown combined with a 1of splash color land for Land Grant.
2)
Not sure if it's just better to dedicate 0 slots to the MU and hope to dodge it
3) or if I should just load the SB with cmc1 spot discard, hoping to win g1 t1 on the play, and mulligan into spot discard in g3 on the play
4) or try transitional Helm-Line, even though it does yake up a lot of slots
A combination of plan 2 and 3 :-)
Remember, they need to mulligan to a Chalice on turn 1 too. Which isn't always that obvious for Eldrazi.
What is everybody's thought about Unmask over TS/Duress? Against Eldrazi, you can cast it turn 1 even without going off and without exposing yourself to a wasteland, or using a petal.
OK, you 'lose' a card, but save a Mana (plus it goes through CotV on 1 :-)). And for the goldfishing I have done, the first was less worst than missing that extra mana.
And what is the best option against blue decks for the sideboard?
4 carpets is a no-brainer
maybe the Lotus blooms but only in grindy matchups
and what else, right now I'm shifting between autumn veil and xantid swarm. Swarm can help you over serveral turns, but can be removed and you need to wait a turn to go off. Autumn's Veil can be cast when necessary (if you keep one green open) but folds to a double counter (counters the veil and your business spell)
Of course I include some discard as well. (choice between Unmask/TS/Duress is still not sure)
But with all these awesome sideboard choices, what do you remove? I assume the following:
4 Pacts (need to go off in multiple turns probably)
4 Culling (no pacts means less flexibility to get a culling target)
1 Skullwinder/Eternal Witness (pact target)
1 IGG (more vulnerable to grave hate + opponents can recure counters)
If I need to add more, what is the following on the chopping block to board out?
Sorry for the double post.
Not an experienced SI pilot, but here are my thoughts anyway:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
First of all, which blue decks in particular? I think that currently a popular counter setup for tempo lists is 4 FoW, 4 Daze and 1-2 Spell Pierce main with 1-2 Flusterstorm in the sb. Midrange and grindy control lists might not be running any Dazes md to avoid bad late game topdecks. Some Mystic equipment package lists might be running 1-2 Counterspell and 0-1 Spell Snare with 2-3 Snapcaster Mage for high mana cost counter recursion.
For such a light counter density now that top is banned and CB decks are not tier 1/DTB, I feel that a good approach is to just overload them with threats: 4 Carpet, 4 Bloom is probably already more "key spells" than their list is prepared to handle due to them having so many irrelevant cards in the 75 for this MU.
What I am mostly worried about then is not U decks, it's Ub decks which combine counters with spot discard. If this buys them enough time to land a Leovold who stops our draw effects, they are probably winning the MU.
What to cut:
I would start by cutting the 4 Pacts for obvious reasons.
Then cut 1-of Pact targets which don't really progress our game plan all that much when drawn into and played naturally, especially if you plan to cut CtW as well. Namely Skyshroud, Wild Cantor, Death-Rite Shaman, Dryad Arbor, possibly even Eternal Witness. Tinder Wall can be left in because it's essentially a ritual due to +1 mana.
In magical Christmas land, you could attack with Swarm first, then use CtW on it yourself to go off in second main phase. But I don't recommend leaving the full set of CtW in since you open up yourself to 1:2 if CtW gets countered. But I could probably justify leaving a 1-of in if you have a Swarm list.
Then, cut stuff which gets randomly hosed by Surgical or other gy hate. Namely IGG, probably also PiF.
Then, if you have ToA in md with alt win cons in the side (e.g. EtW) you can swap those around since ToA needs a really high storm count which might be unfeasible and non-lethal Tendrils can be very sad panda.
What to bring in:
Extra land or 2 can help in playing grindy games and through tax counters, especially if you are cutting the Dryad Arbor.
Carpets and Blooms to overload them with our density.
EtW > ToA
Your choice of spot discard, Defense Grid/Xantid Swarm/Autumn's Veil. Personally, I like spot discard a lot because it's useful also in non-blue MUs vs. Ethersworn Canonist, Chalice of the Void, Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, etc. Veil is good if you suspect the opponent to leave in permanent hate to kill Swarm/Grid. This can happen "accidentally" if they have not enough sb cards to bring in vs storm, and they have to choose "the least horrible cards" to keep in the 60. Keeping Abrupt Decay in to destroy our LED, or keeping in 1-2of Lightning bolt to shoot in our face if we pay too much life to D4s, for example, can be a solid choice, and those can randomly hit Swarm/Grid as well.
Quote back from page 38:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I stumbled across some potential new tech, or at least, new to me.
I've been running 4 ToA, 1 GCB and I was wishing that ToA was less of a dead card. So, I tried dropping 2 ToA for 2 Dark Petition. The logic was that in your opening hand it still imprints for black, but some hands will be able to turn DP into business in a way that ToA could not. And in the late combo it's essentially ToA for +2 mana. So far so obvious.
What I had not expected was the amazing synergy with Infernal Tutor. If you can hit 5 mana, DP can fetch LED, and give you back 3 mana, which is enough to cast IT with 4 floating after cracking LED. That's perfect for Slithermuse, Empty the Warrens or ToA.
So by running a couple of DP, I'm suddenly turning on those IT that sit (nearly) dead in your hand when you have no LED available.
Has anyone else had success with Dark Petition?
1 Bayou
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Culling the Weak
2 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wild Cantor
1 Goblin Charbelcher
//SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Autumn's Veil
4 Lotus Bloom
i was also trying out a 2nd iggy over the charbelcher since it's a mox target and i really like the leyline + iggy interaction.
-rob
Since I imagine Reanimator is one of our tougher matchups (FoW, discard, fast), that's some really interesting tech. What do you take out when you side it in, and who do you bring it in for? Do you miss Belcher against blue?
And is PSI actually a competitive deck, or just a fun hobby?
Edit: I've always had a soft spot for IGG; it my first 'degenerate' combo, and I have been so sad to take it out of PSI.
Keep in mind this is mostly from that list that went 5-0. I only made some small changes.
PSI is about as competitive as Belcher. When I bring in the sb cards, the pact plan is usually sided out. (and culling)
On this off chance that anyone feels like reading goldfishing notes (I used the list from the bottom of last page (Initially EWit over Skullwinder, but later changed that)
The last 15ish hands I give my lines in detail.
(I'm an ANT/TES player who figured I'd pick up the cards to mess around with T1 storm, and I'm excitedly awaiting their arrival in the mail)
Despite being a bit lower than some of the advertised T1 rates, I'm optimistic that it could get there between improved choices on my part, tweaking some of the card choices, and drawing hands IRL (which usually seem to run better for me than tappedout), also all the T2s that are caused by needing to draw the scryed card are T1s on the draw obviously.
Code:On the Play:
H1- Fizzle off a T1 D4 with B floating
H2- Fizzle off T1 D4 nothing floating (and die since pact used)
H3- T2 Belcher, T3 Active with 1 land left in deck (4 permanent mana sources, so we can repeatedly activate)
H4- Mull to 6 -> T2 Tendrils for 22
H5- T2 Tendrils lethal after fiziling T1 (pass turn T1 at 5 life though)
H6- Fizzle off a D4 no mana floating and die to pact trigger
H7- Fizzle T1 off a D4, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for lethal
H8- Can Belcher T1 with 39 cards in deck, and 1 land remaining, or D4 again going to 1 life, D4 puts us at 35 cards in deck, and still needing to go for belcher (pacts used so belcher needs to hit)
H9- T1 Tendrils for 20
H10- T1 Tendrils for 26
H11- T1 Tendrils for 24+ (could have IGG looped further)
H12- Mull to 6 -> T1 Tendrils for 28
H13- Mull to 6, keep a questionable 6, scry goes bad, don't get there in a reasonable time frame
H14- T1 Tendrils for 22
H15- T1 Tendrils for 30+ (could have IGG looped further)
H16- T1 Tendrils for 22
H17- Mull to 6 -> T3 Tendrils for 22 (could bluff a mana screwed noncombo deck by playing T1 Dryad Arbor, and we scried to the bottom)
H18- T2 Tendrils for 26 (contingient on a T1 wild cantor living for a turn)
H19- T1 Belcher with no lands left in deck (D4-ed down to 1 life)
H20- Mull to an all mana 5, never find buisiness
H21- Mull to 6 -> Fizzle after 2 no mana floating D4s (die because used pact)
H22- T1 Tendrils for 24
H23- T1 Tendrils for 28
H24- Mull to death
H25- Mull to death
H26- Fizzle off a D4 with BBB floating (could T2 tendrils for 14 and be left with nothing or T2 IGG to force the opp to essentially mull and have a hand of like Led, Petal, Infernal to try to recover)
H27- T1 Tendrils for 28 (Assuming slithermuse is a D7, D6 still a kill, D5 not a kill and die to pact, only slithermuse lines possible)
H28- Mull to death
H29- T3 Lethal tendrils after blanking on a T1 D4 and a T2 D4
H30- Mull to 6 -> T1 Tendrils for 22
H31- T1 Tendrils for 26
H32- Mull to 6 -> T1 Belcher and activate (41 cards in deck, 1 land left in deck, need to hit since pacts used)
H33- Go for a T2 combo, fizzle and die to pact after missing off of the D4
H34- Mull to 6 -> Miss off a D4, partially recover, can T3 Belcher+activate with no lands in deck provided dryad arbor lives a turn, 3 permanant mana source, so we can beat stifle
H35- Blank on T1 D4, blank on T2 D4, probably just dead. Could have went T1 IGG->Pass keeping Dark Rit, Cabal Rit, D4/Infernal with a Bayou in play.
H36- T2 Belcher with 1 land in deck, and 43 total cards in deck, pact used, so need to win in 1 activation (T1 D4 into D4 mostly whiffed)
H37- T1 Belcher with no lands left in deck
H38- T1 D4 whiff -> pass at 10 life -> T2 Tendrils for 32 (getting very lucky on my last D4)
H39- T1 Tendrils for 30+ (could IGG loop for more)
H40- T1 Tendrils for 28
H41- T1 D4 with BB floating, whiff and die to pact trigger
H42- T1 IGG and pass at 5 life, with 3 Black mox on board, and dark rit x2 and a D4 in hand from the IGG, T2 go down to 1 life, and tendrils for 20
H43- Keep a 6 that needs any mana off the top for the T2, whiff for like 3 draw steps with D4s and Infernals
H44- T1 tendrils for 22 (no D4, infernal->IGG loop)
H45- T1 tendrils for 22 (IGG loop off infernal again without D4s)
H46- T1 D4 whiff -> T2 tendrils for 24+ (24 is tutor chain, could IGG for more)
H47- Mull to 6, need initial mana source off the top for the T2, miss for several turns
H48- T1 Slithermuse whiff (assuming 7), pass at 5 life, and T2 tendrils for lethal, going down to 2 life
H49- T1 whiff off a D4, and die to pact trigger (skyshroud cutter would have been a win, had culling/pact/land grant, and couldn't use culling since I only get one land drop)
H50- T1 D4 whiff -> pass at 10 life -> T2 tendrils for 24 (could also belcher with no lands in deck, and 3 mana saved for next turn to play around stifle)
Thoughts: I love IGG, I need to remember to try slithermuse lines more, I probably went for D4s a couple times when I shouldnt have. D4 kinda suck, but they're a nessecary evil, D4 with 0 or 1 mana is not that likely to get there. Really makes me want to try a tutor/wish heavy T1 storm deck. I'm not sold on what I'd cut for a cutter, but culling screwed me multiple times by not having a free ceature, and already having used my land drop. I feel like a free creature is pretty important, and we can clearly storm for the extra 3 most of the time. Wild cantor was very good for stuff like ESG Cantor DarkRit, and made low mana D4s more likely to work out. 2 Tendrils feels bad, but nessecary, I rarely ever want the natural tendrils in hand, but sometimes you need to put it on a mox or whatever. Conversely, natural belcher is much better, maybe need to raise the belcher count, though I don't really love the basically 50/50 you get by belching with 1 land left in the deck T1. Eternal Witness seems weak, the pact->crack LED-> EWit for LED lines basically never got there. I wish there was a good way to turn pacts into buisiness though.
Changes: +1 Cutter, -1 Eternal Witness
H51- Mull to 6, T1 Tendrils for 20 (natural tendrils actually good here)
H52- T1 Belcher with 48 cards left in deck, 1 land left in deck, 1 permanent mana source if belch fails
H53- Mull to death
H54- Mull to 6 ->T2 belcher with 1 land and 47 cards left in deck (needs DRS to live a turn, and bayou to not get wasted, and the opponent to play a fetch for our DRS to make mana with)
H55- T1 tendrils for 22
H56- T1 Tendrils for 26
Note: Skyshroud cutter has been dead so far, and I've seen it a few time, EWit would have been dead in the same spots, but I'm not happy with cutter so far either.
H57- T1 Tendrils for 24
H58- Mull to death (cutter worse than EWit here, since I could have tried petal -> pact -> crack 2 LED for GGGBBB -> EWit back D4, and D4 with a petal up if I had EWit, though these types of lines almost always backfired for me in the first 50 hands)
H59- T1 Tendrils for 26 (assuming slithermuse D7, D6 would have fizzled and died to pacts)
H60- T1 Tendrils for 32 (assuming slithermuse D7, D6 and D5 would have made me take riskier D4 lines after the muse, rather than a deterministic IGG line, but not be dead outright)
Changes: +1 Skullwinder, -1 Cutter, let's do 1 thing at a time, use more slithermuse lines, and see if I'm doing better than the first 50 without changing anything, maybe the G vs GG will let me use it more?
H61- Whiff off T1 D4 with B floating, and brick for several turns after
H62- T1 Tendrils for 20
H63- T1 D4 whiffs, and draw nothing for several turns, could have gone T1 Belcher -> pass with a mox on the table, but would need to draw 2 more mana
H64- T1 D4 semi-whiffs, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for 24
H65- Mull to 5, T2 D4 with B floating whiffs, die to pact trigger
Notes: I'm liking skullwinder over witness, getting back a threshhold cabal ritual and then casting it is not unreasonable
H66- Mull to 5, T1 Tendrils for 34 (Assuming slithermuse is a D7, D6 lets you keep chaining D4s in a slightly riskier way, D5 bricks and dies to pact)
H67- Mull to 6, Brick off a T1 slithermuse D7, continue with a T2 Tendrils for 24
H68- Mull to 6, brick on a D4 (hit all mana when I already had BBBG floating), die to pact triggers
H69- brick on D4 with 7 mana floating going in, die to pact triggers (all mana again)
H70- Mull to 6, brick on second D4, pass at 5 life, but with an easy T2 tendrils to follow
H71- T1 Tendrils for 22 (assuming slithermuse D7, D6 or D5 would have resulted in taking riskier D4 lines after the slithermuse, or passing the turn with a clean T2 to follow)
H72- Mull to 6, T2 Tendrils for 20 (need to draw the scryed card, very strange line where you need to land grand and fail to find to empty hand for infernal)
H73- Mull to 6, wait for T2 and the scryed card, brick on infernals, pass T2 at 5 life, with a good chance at a T3 if we have at least 2 life to cast a D4
H74- Brick on second D4, don't get there for several turns
H75- Mull to 5, brick on T2 D4, pass T2 at 10 life, T3 Belcher + activate with 0 lands left in deck
H76- T1 brick on D4, pass at 10 life, T2 Tendrils for 26
H77- T1 brick on D4, pass at 10 life, T2 Belcher + activate with 0 land left in deck
H78- T1 Tendrils for 24
H79- D4 bricks (all mana), die to pact trigger
H80- Repeat of H79
H81- T2 Belcher with 48 cards (1 land) left in deck, pact used, so no second chances
H82- T1 D4 semi-bricks, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for 24 (could also belcher+activate with 0 land in deck and 3 mana for next turn if we fear stifle)
H83- Could T1 Belcher with 53 cards (2 land) left in deck, or mull to 5 -> brick on D4 and die to pact triggers
Note: Maybe I'm either being too aggressive with D4s? or not aggresive enough with mulligans? i.e. maybe I need more mana going in to D4s most of the time, so hands that go dark rit -> cabal rit -> D4 where I have like B floating and random junk like an infernal tutor and a culling in hand left over, are just not keepable? mulling something like that just seems loose though, usually they can recover for the T2 or T3, but in a real match, that's not likely to be good enough.
H84- T1 Tendrils for 24
H85- Mull to death
H86- Mull to 4, D4 bricks and die to pact
H87- Could T1 Belcher 53 cards/2 lands left in deck, or whiff on a slithermuse D7, pass at 20 life, and kill with tendrils on (D6 or D5 slithermuse would have been recoverable whiffs as well)
H88- T1 Tendrils for 40
H89- Mull to 5 -> T2 Tendrils for 20+ (Only if our T1 DRS can tap for mana off an opponant's fetch)
H90- Mull to 6 -> scry bottom, whiff on draw T2 -> hit on draw on T3 -> tendrils for 28
H91- Mull to 6, keep (need any mana, scry mox to top) -> T2 tendrils for 34
H92- T1 D4 bricks, not outright dead to pact, but not recovering any time soon
H93- Mull to 6, could T1 belcher with no mana to activate, or D4, D4 gives T1 Belcher with a mox on the table, need 2 more mana (both lands still in deck)
H94- Mull to 6, scry petal to top, T2 tendrils for 24
H95- Mull to 6, T1 tendrils for 18 (better than doing nothing since it's the only option off a bad D4 pull with mana floating), can hardcast an ESG to try to beat T3, can find the other tendrils T5 (only if we didnt hardcast ESG)
H96- T1 D4 semi-bricks, T2 tendrils for 26
H97- T1 Tendrils for 24+ (could IGG loop for more)
H98- Mull to 6, T1 D4 Brick, pass at 10 life, T2 tendrils for 22
H99- T1 Tendrils for 24
H100- 7 is maybe keepable in a real game, with T1 dryad bluffing that we are a fair deck, where dryad needs to live to T2 to tap for mana, then have an easy T2, mulling gives a keepable 6 that leads to T1 tendrils for 22, (land grant fail to find relevant here)
Notes: I wish there were a pactable target that could generate free B, right now, x2 pact for ESG + Cantor hurts
H101- T1 Tendrils for 22 (Tutor->IGG loop, no D4s)
H102- T1 Belcher + activate with 1 land left in a 51 card deck, 1 permanent mana source, no pact used, so can draw out on a whiff
Current Overpreformers:
Wild Cantor - Holy shit so much flexibility, love this as a pact target
Cabal Ritual - Yes, it sucks to have a hand with like 1 IMS, and a couple cabals and you have to mull, but once you get threshhold, cabal ritual is very good at sealing up a win
LED - Almost every easy win involves at least 1 LED, it's pretty much the card I want to see most at all times
IGG - Lets you take deterministic lines in situatuions where you really want to take deterministic lines
Current Underpreformers
D4s - These miss way too often, I might still be playing them wrong, since it is maybe not fair to expect to gain both mana and buisiness off one, but in that case, I'm a bit stuck on hands like for example: (Mox, D4, dyrad, culling, ESG, cantor, infernal) Here, we go ESG->cantor->sac for B, Dryad->Culling -> D4 with B floating (Land Grant, ESG, Cabal Rit, Mox) We've whiffed, can only get up to 4 mana, leaving 2 after infernal which is useless, and we need a couple mana topdecks to have a shot. There's no way that initial hand should be a mull, but bricks like that happen waaaaayyyy too much.
Land Grant - Obviously it is nessecary, but the 2nd-4th land grants are so bad, and we see them a lot
Skullwinder/E-wit - These are dead so often, maybe I should be taking riskier lines involving them though. I'm pretty sure these guys have won me like 2-3 games out of the first hundred, and have sat dead in my hand, or caused mulligans way more often that that (albeit often them being dead didn't matter as I had the win anway).
H103- Mull to 6 -> T1 belcher pass, 1 permanent mana source in play, mox in hand, draw the mana to activate on T3, with 52 cards in deck, 2 lands still in deck, 2 permanent mana sources in play if it fails.
H104- T1 Tendrils for 44+ (could IGG for more, casted 4 D4s, down to 1 life digging for an LED to go with a tutor I had in hand)
H105- T1 Tendrils for 24 (No D4s, Petition->IGG loop)
Note: For the next few, maybe I'll provide the hand, and my lines:
H106- Petal, LED, D4, Bayou, Belcher, Petal, Culling
Bayou -> Petal x2 -> LED -> D4 Crack LED for BBB -> (Draw ESG ESG Petition Mox) -> Pitch both ESG -> Petition for D4 and cast it -> Draw Land Grant, Petal, 2x Dark Rit -> Pass Turn at 5 life. Draw Dark Rit T2, probably dead, Draw Land grant T3, definitely dead.
H107- Cantor, D4, Culling, D4, Infernal, Pact, Petal
Petal->Pact for Dryad and cull it using B from petal -> D4 B floating (draw Mox, Land Grant, Tendrils, D4) -> Die to Pact trigger
H108- D4, 2x Culling, LED, Mox, IGG, Petition -> Mull -> D4, Slithermuse, Mox, Land Grant, Culling, Tendrils (keep, scry infernal to bottom)
Mox Tendrils -> Land Grant for Dryad -> cull dryad -> D4 B floating (draw Petal Petal Tendrils Skullwinder) -> pass turn at 10 life -> draw land grant -> grant for bayou -> pass turn (petal skullwinder cull leaves me nowhere since I can't get the U for muse, could tendrils for like 12, which is also useless) -> draw belcher -> Petal x2 -> Bayou -> Belcher -> pass -> probably not winning this game
H109- Infernal, Tendrils, 2 Cabal Rit, Dark Rit, D4, Land Grant
Grant for Bayou -> Dark Rit + 2 Cabal rit -> D4 BB floating (draw: pact, cabal, LED, DRS) -> cabal rit -> pact for ESG and pitch it (BBBG floating) -> Deathrite -> LED -> Tutor, crack LED-> Tendrils for 20
H110- 2 LED, Bayou, Skullwinder, Culling, Mox, IGG -> Mull -> Petal, LED, Dark Rit, Land Grant, Mox, Pact (keep trying to scry buisiness to the top for the T2) -> scry ESG to bottom -> Draw Culling -> Draw Mox -> probably just dead (Mulling to 5 would have been ESG, LED, 2 Culling, Cabal Rit)
H111- 2 D4, Infernal, 2 ESG, LED, Petal
Pitch ESG -> Petal -> LED -> Pitch other ESG -> Infernal crack LED for UUU (UUUG overall) -> get and evoke slithermuse (Draw: 2 Mox, IGG, Petal, Culling, Belcher, Infernal) (belcher infernal 6th and 7th if they are on 5 or 6)-> pass turn at 10 life -> draw ESG -> Mox Culling and IGG -> Petal, ESG Belcher, next turn can probably Infernal for LED (If i can play the drawn for turn), and even if not, or tutor countered, have 2 Mox on the table, and just need any mana
H112- Land Grant, Infernal, D4, DarkRit, ESG, Mox, Slithermuse
Grant for Bayou -> dark rit -> D4 (draw 2 D4, dark rit, Pact) -> mox a D4, and dark rit off it (assume we need to race, and pact for ESG before the D4 for slightly better odds on an LED) -> D4 (draw: Culling, Pact, D4, Dark Rit) -> Pact for Cantor, and cast it pitching ESG -> sac cantor for B and dark rit -> D4 -> (draw: Infernal, DRS, Petition, Land Grant) -> Die to pact triggers
H113- 2 Petal, D4, Petition, DarkRit, CabalRit, Tendrils
Petal Petal Dark Rit, Cabal rit -> Petition for LED -> D4, crack LED for BBB (draw: mox, 2 culling, land grant) -> scoop
H114- Dryad, 2 ESG, Pact, Grant, Petal, DarkRit -> Mull -> Petal, ESG, Pact, Tendrils, Infernal, Dryad -> Mull (Maybe keep and T1 dryad pass in an actual game)-> 2 Mox, LED, Cabal Rit, D4 (need 2 black cards off the top for a shot at a T3, mull) -> mull to death
H115- Petal, 2 Culling, Infernal, DRS, D4, DarkRit
Petal and dark rit -> DRS and cull it -> D4 with BB floating (draw: D4, LED, Cantor, Grant) -> Grant for Dryad and cull it (BBBBB floating)-> LED -> Tutor -> crack LED (BBBBBB floating) -> tendrils for 20 (worse to tutor chain a 2nd tutor, and lost to soft permission if they have land, better to tutor chain up to tendrils for 22, no mana left if not, since maybe they were an idiot with force if they think we're getting belcher and want to force that)
H116- Land Grant, Tendrils, D4, Mox, LED, Pact, Skullwinder (Probably realistically a mull, but let's go all in)
Grant for Bayou -> Mox tendrils -> pact for ESG -> LED -> Skullwinder -> break LED for BBB, return D4 and cast it (no cards in hand, and no mana floating) (draw: pact, D4, cabal rit, Culling) -> die horribly
Note: Hands like this are why I hate EWit/Skullwinder
H117- Infernal, ESG, DarkRit, Petal, 2 D4s, Muse
Petal -> DRit -> D4 (draw: DRS, ESG, D4, Infernal) -> ESG out a DRS -> Pass Turn -> draw Petition -> pass turn -> draw LED -> tap DRS for B using enemy's fetchland, Pitch ESG, LED -> Infernal -> break LED for BBB, D4 (draw: Tendrils, Dryad, Cabal Rit, Dark Rit) -> die horribly
H118- DRS, Pact, Belcher, Mox, Culling, Dark Rit, Infernal
Mox DRS -> Pact for Dryad -> cull dryad then DarkRit -> D4 with BBB floating (draw: Land Grant, Pact, Bayou, D4) -> Pact for ESG (already commited by using first pact)-> D4 (draw: Mox, Petal, ESG, Cabal Rit) -> Mox the Land Grant -> Pitch both ESG, Cabal Rit up to 7 -> Belcher + Activate with 0 land in deck
H119- 2 Infernal, 2 Culling, Mox, DarkRit, D4 (*maybe this type of weak D4 hand should be a mull?)
Mox an Infernal -> Dark rit -> D4 (draw: Grant, ESG, IGG, Belcher) -> grant for bayou and play it -> pass -> draw cabal rit -> cabal rit, pitch ESG -> belcher, have 2 permanent mana sources, 1 land left in deck
H120- Grant, 2 D4s, Mox, LED, Tendrils, Dark Rit
Mox tendrils -> grant for dryad -> LED -> D4, crack LED for BBB (draw: LED, D4, Cabal Rit, Tutor) -> cabal rit -> LED -> Tutor, crack LED (BBBBB floating) -> get and cast IGG for DarkRit, LED, Tutor -> DarkRit, LED, Tutor -> tendrils for 24
It's hard to say much when all you have is the hand number and the result. The entries with starting hands are more interesting, as are your notes. The formatting has made it really hard to follow in some places, though.
I recently played a couple of hundred hands trying to force the T1 win (on the play). I recorded my starting hands and the result, including the use of flex cards, so that I could get a sense of whether or not they were pulling their weight. So much like what you have done, but with a larger sample size.
The stats are pretty interesting. Over 100s of hands my T1 on the play win percentage was about 40%. That's lower than others have reported, but I'm back to playing MtG after several years away, so I'm admittedly rusty. I was also tuning the decklist during that time, so my win percentage towards the end of that process was somewhat higher than the overall average.
What is more interesting is the breakdown of the losses. About 30% of those losses were mulling into oblivion to try and find a T1 hand. This is not a skill related stat (assuming that I recognize all the possible lines of play of a given hand), although it will vary somewhat based on the decklist. That suggests that 70% T1 win rate is roughly the upper limit of what the deck is capable of. Interestingly, that is also pretty much the T1 win rate the most experienced pilots report.
So, taking out the T1 wins and the mulls to oblivion, that means that about 30% of my games started with something (ie, a D4) but that I failed to close the game out. While some of those are just bad luck, there is undoubtedly a skill element involved. In other words, some number of those fizzles would have been wins in the hands of another pilot.
Other observations:
1) Slithermuse. I don't like it. At best it's a new hand. Using the stats above, even assuming perfect play SM is going to cause you to fizzle 30% of the time (actually, the fizzle rate will be higher, as you can't mull with SM if you don't like the first set of seven that you see). I'd rather play EtW, IGG or PiF in this slot so I can know the outcome when I cast the spell.
2) Eternal Witness. Awesome when it works. A real albatross the rest of the time. Overall, it hurt me more that it helped. Having read this entire thread 2-3 times over the past fortnight, I can see that most of the best players dropped her before interest in the deck seemed to fizzle out.
3) Both IGG and PiF are situationally amazing. In your opening hand, or with LED in the chain, IGG is much, much better. But PiF can save your combo when you draw into it with LED still in play because even if you can't hard cast it, you can break LED to flash it back. I can't decide which one I want, but both seems really greedy.
4) Empty the Warrens is great off a short tutor chain, simply winning you the game. Unless you cast Summoner's Pact. Ugh. I had one maindeck for a while but it was like Eternal Witness, great when you tutored for it, rubbish in your opening seven or off a D4. It's probably a sideboard card that allows you to play around certain kinds of hate.
5) Simian Spirit Guide is amazing. Looking back at that 30% of fizzled games, it was almost always due to lack of mana rather than lack of business (although that happened from time to time as well, of course). Switching out Manamorphose for Simian Spirit Guide has really boosted the number of keepable hands for me, and smoothed out my combos.
6) Dropping one or two Tendrils for Dark Petition has been good. Not amazing, but good. You get to keep some number of hands that you would otherwise throw back, but occasionally draw into it mid combo without being able to make more than four mana. At that point you obviously wish it was ToA. Interestingly, it also serves a mana-fixing role, turning the green/red mana you produce black, and being +1 mana when you can fetch LED or Cabal Ritual (with Threshold).
This is what I am currently playing:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains or Past in Flames
1 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
Interesting observations Requiem.
Friday I'll play a local event with the deck, curious to see how it will go.
I have your list - 1 Dark petition + 1 GCB, - 2 SSG, +1 Slithermuse, +1 Skullwinder (and the IGG)
In the limited goldfishing I have done, I found Slithermuse quite good. Assuming you can't/won't tutor for an IGG/PiF, SM is for one mana more than a D4, basically at least a D5. Even if you can't go off at that time. Your hand is stacked again to go for it again for the next turn.
I'll exchange the Skullwinder for a SSG, just to try it out, because you don't want to be playing SW, except for turn 1 and against non-blue decks.
BTW, what are your thoughts exactly on Skyshroud Cutter? I love the card in general (especially together in a deck with kavu predator and false curse) but in this deck I'm not sure. Sure, it's a free creature which can be pacted, but sometimes I have trouble enough to go to Storm 9, adding 2 or 3 to that count might be difficult. (maybe I just suck at playing the deck :-)) Also, you NEED to play a land grant for that bayou or arbor (not to sacrifice before) just to activate the card. I think I summed up all the cons, but being able to search for a free sacrifice effect (+1 storm) pre board was at some moments, very appealing.
i think if you're going to play the cutter, it takes the place of skullwinder.
i've had a lot of practice with this deck (using the build i posted a few posts back) and i'm not sure i would change it much. i'm not sure how i could be sold on empty the warrens, reliably getting 4 mana with red is pretty difficult, as it requires a lotus petal or you will likely be using a summoner's pact. if you're using LED and infernal tutor, i'm pretty sure you can just try to go off instead.
i think past in flames could be pretty strong, that would be worth testing, and it would likely take the place of the IGGY spot. (i will miss the loop though)
I've messed about with Young Wolf, Vine Dryad and Skyshroud Cutter, and I'm not impressed; they are just so conditional. While much more 'light weight' than Eternal Witness, it's the same sort of thing - a niche card designed to deal with a specific situation that only comes up occasionally. While play-testing may change my mind, at the moment I feel like I will get more out of improving general consistency rather than trying to have a tool for every possible situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
Re Slithermuse: I go back and forth on him. I'll just point out that if you can tutor for a 4cc card and can pass the turn, you could just run EtW and win. That's the problem with Slithermuse - he is competing with a bunch of cards that just win. He is only the optimal play if a) you cannot pass the turn (cutting off EtW), you cannot float more than four mana (else IGG or PiF would be better), and he will draw you more than four cards (otherwise you would fetch Cruel Bargain and draw 4 with an extra mana floating). And even in that very narrow situation, he may still fail to get you there.
I took PSI to my local Legacy event, and did poorly. That's mostly me, though, as I only really started playing again last week, and I have a lot of skills to relearn that have nothing to do with my deck.
That said, I did notice how much harder it is to mulligan at an event than when goldfishing; the pressure just does something to me. I made very poor mulligan decisions throughout the day, keeping hands that I look back on and wonder what I was smoking. This is something I very much need to work on. Once I was actually in a position to go off, I tended to do just fine.
The anti-blue sideboard worked well, winning me a couple of games, but I need a lot more practice with it, and it's not something you can just goldfish.
does anyone here have interest in jamming games on cockatrice? we can just play the mirror and that way you can observe the other players lines of play?
so what is your current anti-blue sideboard?
I'll still thinking, but I will probably try this:
4 carpets
4 lotus bloom
4 discard/protection
2 EtW
1 Taiga
The taiga is for more resources, when cutting arbor and the pact package. Mostly against taxing decks and so you can go off more easily after running into some counters. Also helps for belcher (mountain, if it still is stuck in the deck) or to cast EtW.
The EtW is mostly against control decks but is also an out to leyline of sanctity.
Carpets need no explanation, lotus bloom again is extra resources.
Only thing I'm not 100% yet about is the discard/protection package. I like duress over thoughtseize, because that 2 life cost can be a real difference, but I can't discard hatebears with Duress (thinking teeg/thalia/revoker/aethersworn). Might still opt for the Unmask, does a package of both, at the cost of 1 card, but saves a mana. Veil is also interesting, luring counters out, or just protection the whole combo at all. But just a turn 1, bayou/petal/mox into discard --> pass, is more appealing than keeping that 1 ESG in hand or 1 green mana floating, just in case.
I'm running:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
3 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Forest
1 Empty the Warrens
I'm running EtW for the same reason you are - as an out to Leyline of Sanctity. I'm not seeing any in my meta (yet) so I may drop it for something else.
The forest was initially because I don't own Taiga, but it has been absolutely amazing; it's typically what I fetch first. Having a (virtually) indestructible source of green mana to drop Carpets and Swarms has been key in several games. At this point, I wouldn't change it.
I have mixed feelings about Duress. I agree the two life makes a difference, but I could bring in Thoughtseize against other fast combo decks (I'm really jealous of SITES and their Therapy package, actually). I know 'be faster' is our thing, but on the draw we probably can't go off if they hit us with their own discard, and it would be nice to slow them down a little while we redraw our missing cards.
I've not tried Lotus Bloom, but more initial mana sources would be really nice. Something I think I need to take for a spin.
Edit: On the discard v Veil question, one thing I noticed is that we don't always have the luxury of planning our combo attempts a turn or two in advance. It could be that we rip something off the top that our opponent will force us to discard on their turn, or perhaps they tapped out for a big spell. In those cases, we sometimes need to go for it immediately, casting our protection and our business in the same turn. When that happens, Veil takes up excess green mana, while Duress competes for our precious black mana.
Even we do have control over the timing, and can lay some groundwork the turn before we go off, a good blue player will also use Brainstorm to hide key counters, or to bluff hiding key counters, whereas Veil demands an answer.
So following your reasoning, it seems better to play veil over discard.
The forest is indeed a nice thought.
I wish it were that simple. Duress also imprints for black mana, which can be relevant. It has value against non-blue decks. And so on. I don't think that either one is 'strictly' better than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
In the end, it's going to be a meta/playstyle call. They are both really, really good cards.
I don't like Duress at all, the whole point of Pact/ESG is to support off color disruption so you can cast your rituals unhampered. If you want discard, then you're better off with Swamps, Kobolds and Cabal Therapy.
Pact Si is a Veil deck, IMO, having to Land Grant to cast your disruption just isn't where you want to be at all.
If you are worried about Duress vs hatebears (namely Thalia 1.0 and Phrexian Revoker = Death & Taxes? Or do you have something else in mind?), I would probably just run 2-3 EtW, mulligan aggressively and make a bunch of goblins t1. Most hatebears won't enter play until t2. Even if you do t1 Thoughtseize them on the draw, chances are they could have 2 hatebears in hand, you only get rid of one of them, and you are now a sad panda.
My reasoning here is that most decks running hatebears do not run much creature sweeps. Unless they are prepared vs TNN decks (Holy Light, anyone?) and you get accidentally hit by the splash effect.
Dnt runs pontiff, although that is a bit slow. Also many run the red sweeper.
Most hate bear decks will run plains, I'd take my chances with massacre.
That being said I just ignore ore hate bear decks.
Like mistercakes said, sweepers are more present with all the TNN decks, so EtW against the hatebear decks won't always suffice.
Massacre could be an option, but needs land grant/bayou to activate it (open to wasteland if you play it too soon) and gets stopped by teeg. I thought I was going to play 4 veils (don't like the swarm because people with URx will probably keep lighting bolts in, or just a stray decay or push)
But I'm more afraid of our Aggro Loam player, he can play teeg/thalia from the side and maindeck CotV. Granted game 1,when he plays it on 1,we can get around it. But on a 0 it provides more of a problem (canceling our blooms, LED's, petals, pact is normally out) although I will still side the blooms in against him. That's why I might play 2 veil and 2 tomb of urami in the side. To create a broader angle of attack. At least then we have an out to teeg.
Or is it better to ignore these decks and just try to go off turn 1?
I haven't had a lot of success Vs turn 1 0cc chalice with this deck. I think it's best to just race them. You could also try nature's claim since you can cast them more easily.
and the best way to race them, is to keep the pact/culling part in, right?
If their only interaction is hate bears I would just race.
It's really good to see so much discussion on this deck again.
Looking back at my earlier post on Slithermuse, I can see that I was a little one-sided. Yes, Slithermuse is only the optimal play in a very narrow range of circumstances (Pact used, only 4 mana floating). However, it is also worth conceding that Slithermuse is also the most generally available play. So if you only want to devote one slot to a tutor target, Slithermuse is a reasonable choice. Every time you tutor for it you'll probably wish it was something else, but it will probably be a different 'something else' that you wish for each time. SM covers all the bases, albeit not optimally.
I'd also suggest that Eternal Witness becomes a lot more important if you run Slithermuse. This is because the Slithermuse hands that fizzle tend to be those that draw a load of mana and no business. Pact for Eternal Witness opens up a lot of those hands.
I was wondering, though, whether anyone has tried running Verdant Catacombs over Land Grant in PSI? I was testing another copy of Dark Petition in place of Goblin Charbelcher, and it occurred to me that if I wasn't running Belcher, why not use actual lands?
Presumably, this hurts our non-blue matchup somewhat (although not fatally, since SITES has been doing this for years). Land Grant adds storm count, can be imprinted, does no damage to us when we use it, and can sometimes allow you to get Hellbent without LED. I'm not sure how big of a deal this is, but these are certainly all advantages that LG has over VC.
However, showing a blue player our hand really, really hurts. And getting our initial mana sources countered (or discarded) really, really hurts. There are also situations where you have the 'wrong' land in hand, shutting you off from LG for the 'right' land. VC can be played out in those circumstances regardless.
I'll probably mess about with this a bit, but I would be interested to know if anyone has already gone down this road.