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You need Cliques and Discard. If you can splash black for Seize in the side and jam as many cliques. The best way to fight them I feel is through their hand. Not on stack or with perms.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdB
Humility just stops the creatures still leaving them with Omni Storm kill.
ORing is a fine answer to Omniscience and Emrakul, but lacking against draw 7.
Against Omiscience, always have a creature with an EtB-trigger ready to put into play. Thus they can't cast Griselbrand, Emrakul or Burning Wish right away and you got a window to Disenchant their Omniscience.
Went to a small tournament yesterday. I went a miserable 0-3 loosing to merfolks, Burn and Hulk-therapy.
All games were pretty close, but i was always playing from behind, which is pretty hard to do all the time.
Went 3-0-2 at a 30 man local, running the 9th place GP Ghent list. Beat stoneblade, elves, Maverick, draws with stoneblade (got him down to 1 in turns), and the mirror.
Lost in top 8 to merfolk. Sometimes they have 3 mutavaults, 2 wastes, double force, double standstill. It was exactly what he needed.
Looking to help that matchup, along with goblins. Ghostly prison, kitchen finks, timely reinforcements, peacekeeper, more swords effects, or even a splash would be useful. I wish I had access to a moat.
Against goblins try out Vendilion clique, it flash blocks and takes their ringleader. I personally like Pithing needle against goblins too. Nice to see you won a lot. Do you feel like stone blade or the mirror could have been won with more time? What would you have done differently to win those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Hey guys, can y'all help me assemble a sideboard for this deck?
I am expecting Goblins, Merfolk, Burn, Maverick, Reanimator, Dredge, and perhaps the mirror & Show and Tell.
What are the most effective cards people have found for these matchups?
I am thinking Counterbalance should be in the sideboard for this kind of meta, but what do you guys think?
Stoneblade is a very easy matchup. They don't go quickly and we have a better endgame then they do. A lot of the problem there was my opponent was a slower player who also brought in surgicals. There was a lot of shuffling. I should have called over a judge, but was busy with my own decisions to really notice until I saw the clock. The game was never really in his favor outside of the one game he managed to sneak in thanks to Elspeth resolving and Riptide lab + Clique taking my entreat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
I punted the mirror hard. I had a jace out with top and 2 entreat in my top three to my opponents top only. With EE in hand, his only out was an answer to Jace, so instead of forcing him to have an answer to both tokens and jace, I let him just have to find one to jace. I was waiting for a counterspell to seal the deal, but let his top dig too hard. By the time I realized I was not finishing the game for no reason, he had found a way to deal with both lines of play. Turn 5 ended with both of us having 8 or so angels in play.
EDIT:CB is good against burn, reanimator, the mirror, and to some limited extent show and tell. I'd leave at least 3 main board with the fourth in SB. If you also include 2 extractions and 2 cages, you solve the GY based pretty well and help handle show and tell and useful in the mirror. Here's what I'd run as my side if I played in an event tomorrow...Quote:
Hey guys, can y'all help me assemble a sideboard for this deck?
I am expecting Goblins, Merfolk, Burn, Maverick, Reanimator, Dredge, and perhaps the mirror & Show and Tell.
What are the most effective cards people have found for these matchups?
I am thinking Counterbalance should be in the sideboard for this kind of meta, but what do you guys think?
SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Disenchant
2 Humility
2 Ghostly prison (would be a test for the aggro matchups)
1 Spell pierce (I run 2 more main)
1 Vendillion Clique (2 more main)
1 Counterbalance ( 3 more main)
The boarding plan would very closely resemble the one detailed here on starcity since that is where I started testing with the deck. The plan is incredibly solid. I hope this helps you as much as it did me
Thanks Matt B. That article was a very good starting point. I had no idea how useful Engineered Explosives is in a two color version without Academy Ruins.
That guy's maindeck is what I was shooting for except he only has two Snapcasters and no Elspeth. Is Elspeth a win more? Should I not run a one of Elspeth?
The article addressed most of my inquiries except the two tribal, Merfolk & goblins. Moat is expensive and doesn't seem to fully solve either match up. Anybody have a good card that answers both? Is humility my best bet here?
Yeah, that's the only thing I've had trouble with. Elspeth, although really good, hasn't been necessary for me, since it really shines in the control matchups, and that list really punches people left and right in the face once it hits 5 mana. 2 Snapcaster could be up'd to three, perhaps at the cost of a counterspell. EE was pretty sweet for me, but one of the weaker cards this weekend.
I'll be trying ghostly prison first and foremost, as we really just need to slow them the heck down. Certainly helps against mutavault, I just hope it is enough. If not, looking towards the red splash for sweepers
To anyone who has played/tested against merfolk with moat:
Is it really as powerful as it seems? Or, am I just too ambitious trying to resolve a 4cc enchantment against a deck like merfolk?
It is really powerful except it costs four and they play daze, spell pierce and force of will. If you land it then only corahelm commander and kira can get through. It will get countered around half the time I think. To be honest, i think the biggest thing you can do against Merfolk is add wasteland to the deck. Being able to have more answers to mutavault in non spell slots is awesome! If you do not have moat, I personally would not buy it to try out In this deck. I have a few and decided that I rather have path to exile etc. I understand that people play different versions of the deck and if your version play 0-1 Snapcastermage then you may have to play peacekeeper or moat to win the game because the amount of two for ones you have are less. In that case moat or similar effects seems needed and I would splash for red blasts effects to help win counter battle/kill all their dudes. Red blasts also are good because there is a lot of suboptimal cards versus merfolk so you having cards to bring in against them that are meant for other matchups is awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
Edit: Think of Moat as a six drop, because playing around pierce is a good idea.
Wasteland would be very valuable, although I cringe at all the times I really wanted counterbalance turn two, and was unable to do so while I still was running wastes. Similarly for counterspell. Having wasteland as your second land in hand is a death sentence in what feels like a lot of matchups. It can be done, but the expectations of what you can cast off two lands has to change as well. Mana leak might be good here if you decide to go this route.
Hello everyone. I'm playing this deck since the miracle cards has been spoiled. I almost love everything about this deck, except that it's somethimes hard, to win games fast if you have to, but so far I'm pretty satisfied.
Until now I played 6-7 Turnaments. 2x semifinal at GPT's for Gent. Played 1-2-1 at GP Gent ;). (All the results with a U/W list.)
The last weeks I changed a lot at the deck. Red splash for blasts in the SB. Explosives main and I changed a lot in the SB as well. Went to two turnaments the last weeks. 60-70 Player. Both turnaments 4-2 / 10 place. Lost in both turnaments to Goblins ;)
So here is my list.
Maindeck:
4x FoW
2x CounterSp.
3x SpellPierce
4x BrainSt.
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Snapcaster mage
3x Jace the Mindsculptor
3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Engeneered Explosives
4x Swords to Pl.
3x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Karakas
1x Celestial Collonade
1x Glacial Fortress
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty rainforest
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic island
1x Plains
3x Island
Sideboard:
1x Hydroblast
1x Flusterstorm
1x Counterbalance
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Timely Reinforcement
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Circle of Protection Red
1x Humility
1x Moat
1x Vedalken Shackles
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Surgical Extractions
I'm still not sure about the Circle and Shackles. They made their job quite good so far, but not sure if other cards would be better in the SB slots.
About the Moat. As I lost twice against Goblins, it's especially against these swarming decks. Last weekend against Goblins it won me the game, and when playtesting the card it was ridiculous good ;).
Mishra's Factory. The factories are so strong at the moment. Good in the mirror, good against Planeswalker and good to defend your own. They can block Mongoose, Mutavault etc. Sometimes they also win a game here and there, but that's not the reason why I play them.
My biggest problem with this deck is, that it's a 66,6% Deck. I win 2/3 of the games and loose the rest. Is this deck really capable of winning a turnament? I'm still not sure, if the deck is not good enough, or if it's me :wink:
What problem lands are you running into? Or are you just looking for general mana denial?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Try running Dust Bowl - only takes up a single slot but come late game you can get rid of problem lands. I don't feel we should be trying to play the mana denial route - we aren't a tempo deck and games tend to draw out very long, at which point those Wastelands, Mana leaks and what not become dead cards.
Winning 66% of the time is great! You can definitely win a tournament with that percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by StefN
I was wondering how celestial colonnade has been suiting you, I see the benefits of being choke proof and late game swinging, have you been activating it frequently. Also the Timely Reionforcements in the sideboard, how has that served, what do you want that against?
I've also ran into problems winning a a reasonable pace. For instance, turn 24 against Goblins and turn 30 against Maverick. This can't be a realistic plan. FYI - I'm running Kobie Spaeth's list, which isn't short on a quick clock.
I've been running a similar list to Spaeth's list for a few weeks after trying out esper, I had/have the same issue and whenever I try to speed up, take risks, or be aggressive I end up losing more than I would care to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
It is simply manlands. Utility lands have the potential to grind out an advantage that we dont have, and mutavault/factory enable the opposition to still ahve pressure post terminus. Dust bowl is too slow against folk.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
I agree we should not be playing the mana denial route. I'm simply trying to address my opponents wincons, similar to how stoneblade sometimes plays wastes. While i don't plan on doing it myself, I'm suggesting those that want to run wastes would be better off with mana leak as a reliable turn 2 counterspell, since UU is harder to come by with wasteland in the deck
I haven't had too much problem with the clock except against slower opponents.
Wasteland is not a mana denial card in this deck. It serves it's function versus utility lands of the opponent. Against Maverick you can remove their Karakas so their teeg stays dead, as well as deal with dryad arbor(Esp if they have a jitte out). Against Merfolk you can take out their mutha vaults. Against RUG it is pretty useless. Against UW Stoneblade and UW Miracles you can take out Academy Ruins Karakas and mishras factory, maybe a riptide lab or dust bowl if they play those too. Against TES/ANT/Sneak and Show, mana denial is sometimes helpful, it can keep spell pierce live. Against Goblins it can Get rid of Cavern of souls to keep you counterspells live. Against Dredge it can remove cephalid Coliseum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
That is the main function but it also reduces variance. If you have a land heavy hand you can trade some of those lands with your opponents and stall until you draw out of it.
Playing Mana Leak is an option in some metas, and wasteland does compliment keeping it active for longer, but I personally would keep Counterspell. Past turn two Counterspell Imo is better and with 16-17 blue sources, Counterspell can definitely be supported. To give you perspective Merfolk has 12-14 blue sources and plays a plethora of two drops for UU. In some matchups they will be functionally the same except for mana cost, but against the mirror and Stoneblade, there are many situations where they have three mana to pay because these games tend to drag out long.
About having a quicker clock, a play that was not so intuitive at first was using jace on self to dig with +2 ability when I have countertop out and no hand. Trying to keep relevant targets on top, I would not want to fetch. this let me have less opportunity to find a win condition so I realized using jace's ultimate was the way to go while putting duds on the bottom of my deck.
I know this wasn't directed at me but, I was playing 2 Timely Reinforcements for a while myself, but cut down to 1 for more options. The card is exceptional. Burn is a very real deck during the first few rounds of large events. And it's just plain good against any deck that clocks you with ground pounders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
@All mentioning the clock. I'll reiterate Tammit's sentiment:
Most important is to goldfish/playtest a lot, and learn how to stack with Top in only 2-3 seconds regardless of situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
It's also critical that at real events you ask your opponents to play faster and call a judge if need be. This is something I need to get better at, I allow people to dick around too much because it's early on, but every minute counts.
I've personally never had a problem going to time with this deck due to myself. The only occasions I go to time are against opponents who play with Sylvan Libraries or the mirror. People playing with library typically aren't used to sifting through 3 cards a turn and tend to take much longer with their decisions, you need to make it clear that you're timing(not literally but you understand what I mean hopefully) their activations. And the mirror just sucks because sometimes no one finds business and it's neither player's fault.
I've been playing 2x Timely in the board and I really like them. It's very nice against random aggro decks.
On the topic of the clock: while I don't have a problem with it, these are some things that have helped me play faster: playtesting, so I know what to do in certain situations with Tops, Jaces, Brainstorms, etc, and adjusting how I handle my cards mechanically. when you Top, pick up three cards at a time from your library, not take the first card, put it in your hand, take the second card and put it in your hand, take the third card and put it in your hand. If you Brainstorm on their turn, look at the first card in case it's a miracle, then take the next two off your library in one motion. I've seen people take the cards one at a time and it makes their Top/BS/TMS activations take twice as long as it should. Make sure your opponent can see clearly your are taking the right amount when you take them all at once to avoid confusion. Here are some other good tips:
An Easy Way to Play Faster (yes, it is Tom Lapille, but there is good info in it)
Also, you need to know when to get your opponent to play faster, especially if it is a control mirror. If you play at a brisk pace throughout all of your matches and your opponents aren't slow playing, you should be fine.
I have been debating on how to go about playing this deck because a lot of information can be given [away] playing this deck fast. I have a few scenarios so let me know what you think about them.
A) Fast: Drawing a land and putting directly into play. slow: draw land, shuffle shuffle shuffle it between other cards, put land in play.
B) Fast: Look at top and put third card down on top. slow: Look at top, shuffle shuffle shuffle, resulting in third card on top.
C) Fast: look at top and put back like it was. Slow: Look at top and shuffle shuffle shuffle back to original order.
D) Same thing with Brainstorm and Jace, do you shuffle your hand before putting back.
Also how do you handle sideboarding, do you tell opponent it is 15:00 in the round and you have until 18:00 to present your deck, not say anything at all and if he takes too long call a judge, or when he has about 30 secs left tell him you need to present your deck now.
How do you shuffle after searching your deck? I would think seven side shuffles is enough and seven from your opponent... Can you call a judge for shuffling your deck for too long? What is the minimum you need to do have it randomized
How do you shuffle in between games?
I can't remember the last time I called a judge for the opponent taking too long to sb, what is the infraction and the result?
A helpful tip, write down how you sideboard to save some time.(you can look between rounds at notes correct?-- I still feel guilty doing this :frown: )
The biggest time eater of all is looking at top card to see if it is a miracle! What is the best way to do that?!?
Something that helps me the most is actually typing up all of my sideboarding plans. I go through every matchup and type what I'll take out and what I'll side in. This helps in two ways.
First, I make sure that my sideboard is doing exactly what I want. Occasionally you might get really up in arms and have to win a matchup, so you say, "Yeah I hate Merfolk! Let's play 10 creature removal in the board!" but then when you come up with a sideboard plan you realize that you're not actually making great swaps for the last 7-10 cards. Maybe you do want that much hate or maybe you don't, but this helps a lot in tuning the maindeck and sideboard to make sure it beats the matches you want.
Second, it saves a lot of time. When you've gone over your sideboard plans for every match 3 times (and shared it with somebody), you can sideboard very quickly. Just think of all the times when you're not prepared--Maybe you run into a matchup you didn't expect, or somebody is playing a variation on a known deck--these games always take a lot longer to sideboard. If you prepare ahead of time, you can help negate this effect as much as possible.
@Guy I Don't Know
A) I will almost always put lands directly into play off top for 2 reasons (even with lands in hand). It's faster, and it looks like the other 2 cards + any cards in your hand are business. The only time that changes are when I need to play fetch lands.
B, C, D) Unless my opponent knows what's on top of your library, just do the fastest thing possible because you really aren't giving away information in the way you top. The only time I care how my topping/bsing looks is with CB out (I'm talking about when topping NOT in response to them casting something), but then it's mainly poker to try to get your opponent to guess what you put back on top.
As for sideboarding, I haven't run into problems with slow sideboarders, I guess I'm lucky. I would likely call a judge at a competitive event if sb time goes over though.
After shuffling, I perform side shuffles, very quickly. I have had opponents that take forever to shuffle, usually I ask them to speed it up and there are no more problems.
Between games I do more thorough shuffling, and a lot of it, but still at a fast pace obviously.
Addressing the miracle peek. I don't look at the top card while its on my library, typically I hold my entire hand in the left hand as I draw with my right and look as I draw it, putting it on the table if it's a miracle I want to cast.
If there is time, I do a quick shuffle after drawing my card so they can't follow the cards in my hand and see if I drew a land or had it. If you have to play turbo fast to finish, some of these things need to be skipped, of course. With Tops activations, I set my hand down and grab the three cards close together and shuffle the cards before looking at them, then put them back on top. The shuffle motion should only take about a second, so it's definitely worth doing to prevent from giving away information.
In between games, I always pile and side shuffle. As far as clock goes, I like to find my seat early so I can see the clock; that way if they are taking too long to do something you have an exact time, not just "it felt like he was taking too long".
Sideboard notes are fine as long as they are used in between games, never during. They are very helpful and I would recommend using them, that way you don't have to worry about what your plans were and waste mental stamina trying to think.
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
Really? It takes like 0.5 extra at max. Instead of sliding it into your hand, you rotate it a little bit to be able to look at it while sliding it. I've got my cards in my left hand and draw with my right, lifting it from my library, then sliding it into my hand. While making that transfer, I don't slide it across the table like I used to do before Miracle was a thing. Instead, I'm lifting it from my deck, the put it into my hand. While doing so, I rotate it so it faces my direction.
I don't think you need to actually practice this. What's more important is to make up your mind beforehand whether you would want to cast a Miracle in case you were to draw it on your next draw step. Thus you give away less information because you don't have to hesitate when accidentally drawing it. On the other hand, you might of course be bluffing, who knows :smile:
Preaching to the Choir, brother:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
Eliminating your tells and honing in on your opponents is probably the best way to get better at this game without actually learning the interactions. Some local players CLEARLY have miracle cards in their decks. You can just tell by the way they amateur-ly look at cards they draw. Or rearrange their Gy after drawing snapcaster. Learn to react the same whether you have it or not.Quote:
I don't think you need to actually practice this. What's more important is to make up your mind beforehand whether you would want to cast a Miracle in case you were to draw it on your next draw step. Thus you give away less information because you don't have to hesitate when accidentally drawing it. On the other hand, you might of course be bluffing, who knows
There is a group card game out there called The Resistance. For those who have played Werewolves, its similar without as many roles. Pick it up if you can and play with a group of friends, you really get to see how differently people react to what cards they have. You really can cut down on the information you are unconsciously leaking by playing games that require you to bluff and emit controled reactions
I just thought of a way to conceal SCM, marking your life pad with ticks of the spells in your graveyard.
- means Spell Pierce
l means Counterspell
/ means Swords to Plowshares
\ means brainstorm
That way whenever you use your pad you are reminded of what is in your graveyard and don't have to look at it!
Nice tech! I hate to look through my gy and "reveal" my SCM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
Edit: Looking through your gy, when you're not holding SCM could be a useful bluff at times :cool:
I mean, I always just lay my GY out so it's easy to check the whole graveyard at a glance.
Right? Looks professional tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
What are some of the good SB options for merfolk? Been getting whipped by fishes these days after casual playtesting. I would usually side out all the counterbalances, some FOWs for peacekeepers, disenchants and pyroblasts.
I having problems with Goblins and their new tool cavern of soul!
I'm testing with 2 Humility of my SB and games are winnable but very long and boring.......... red splash to adding Pyroclasm open me to Wasteland and Timely Reinforcemets is too narrow.
Someone can tell me a remedy that is not a very expensive Moat??? :smile:
Density of removal is key in this MU. Post-board I have 4 terminus, 3 SCM, 4 StP, 2 o ring, 2 PtE and 3 REB, which is more than the number of lords they're playing. Also if you can set up SCM + flashback removal + block on a double lord attack it's a real blowout.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
Your sideboard should definitely be able to beat them depending on how many of your sideboard cards you side in. I will tell you what I do and hopefully that helps. First of all, side out all of your counter magic, after you have zero FOWs, counterspells, spell pierces, and spell snares, then start siding out counterbalance. I side in 2 path 1 term 3 needle 2 engineered explosives 1 clique. You have some functionally similar cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
Path-->pyroblast
Needle-->Disenchant
you also have peacekeeper so that is an added bonus. The number of Snapcastermages and terminus in the main can help as well.
Elesh Norn. Either hardcast it, or run Gifts/Unburial Rites or Intuition/Gigapede/Unburial Rites packageQuote:
Originally Posted by TarmoX
I was trying out the esper miracles with discard in the side till i met merfolk and totally got creamed. Hence i am splashing red, instead of black for REBs and pyroblasts which will be more favourable for us postboard.
I'm kind of stumped why you're having problems against Goblins. This is one of our easiest matchups. Take some lumps and setup Miracle, then wipe their team when it gets too big. StP cleans up afterwards, then Jace fate-seal the rest of the game. I've also run Pyroclasm in the SB as a one-of and that's a good bridge between setting up Terminus.
I have had problems with the mirror, any way to get above 50-50? It seems first turn top just wins it. Would you force of will that sucker?
Koby, are you being serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
And from Max Sjoblom's GP Ghent Top 8 report: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/maxsjo...rt-1-the-deck/
"Among the currently popular other decks, the only really bad matchup is Goblins,..."
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/maxsjo...he-tournament/
"When my opponent played a turn-one Skirk Prospector, I felt that I was in trouble. Goblins is the worst matchup for this deck, as I discussed in the strategy article."
Maybe you're a better Miracle player than these other guys. If you're right, then this deck has virtually no bad matchups, and there'd be no reason to play any other deck but this one.