Chinese fakes

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is a good question. There are several reasons. One of them is because players are familiar with cards that are real or look real, other types of proxies, especially handwritten or sharpie proxies slow down and hinder gameplay because they encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint.

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This happens in every single game of EDH I've ever played. Reading the card doesn't take that long. This seems like a pretty shaky reason to want counterfeit cards.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

There are also instances where I will disclose I am playing with proxies, and those people won't care, but I still like my cards looking like real cards because it looks cool.

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"Cool?" This also seems shaky. If you're playing with disclosed proxies, more power to you. You say you care about gameplay, why do you care if your cards look "cool?" Proxies can look ten times as cool as real cards anyway.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Another primary reasons is because I don't see anything morally wrong about deceiving someone about my cards outside of a trade or transaction provided it doesn't affect game play. I know people who on principle don't want to play with fake cards, and they would never let me play with full art proxies, or sharpie proxies. Some of them don't provide reasons but are adamant about them, other people say that you should only be able to play with cards you earned or actually bought, but this is a silly arbitrary rule that doesn't impact gameplay.

* * *

Not just LGS events, but even in casual games.

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And here's the meat of the matter, I think. You want counterfeit cards to "deceive" people because you think they're dumb or unfair for wanting people to play with authentic Magic cards. And you want to try this at your LGS events. This is cheating. Like, disqualify you from the tournament, ban you from DCI, you're not welcome back at this store variety cheating.

More than that, can you see how people would view your eagerness to lie to them because you look down on their preferences as offensive?

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

You initially said "Sigh. Do you understand that Magic the Gathering is a copyright-protected product and such it is ILLEGAL for another to reproduce it and sell it? It isn't about scruples or morality. It is ILLEGAL. There is no "might be doing something unscrupulous", they are doing something ILLEGAL."

In other words, you were saying I shouldn't buy passable proxies because it's against the law.

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I said producing counterfeits is against the law, and you're supporting such endeavors.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

What it comes down to is that I'm not doing anything illegal, I'm not selling or trading the proxy cards as real cards. No one has proven that these proxies will hurt the value of your cards, or LGS's or Wizards. No one has provided evidence to prove anything close to those things happening. Counterfeit yugioh cards, along with Pokemon and baseball cards have existed for years, and they haven't hurt the market or value of the real cards. There are already hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of passable Magic the Gathering proxies "in the wild" and your cards are just fine. I just want to have a near identical MTG experience that others have, except I don't have thousands of dollars to spend. Until you can prove that I'm harming you, or anyone, or gameplay, you are going to just have to deal with it.

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The Burden of Proof lies with you and not them. You are the one wanting to do something other players see as a potential problem. Do you have empirical evidence of rampant counterfeiting doing nothing to a company's bottom line?


You keep talking about artificial barriers to entry and how it should be "about the game" and not about the size of a player's wallet. Yet playing with slightly inferior proxies negatively impacts your experience? What about the game? A crappy proxy Underground Sea still taps for Blue and Black, does it not? You stated individuals in your playgroup and at your LGS don't like proxies. So instead of choosing to swallow your pride and purchase the cards or just not play the game, you instead choose to deceive those players into believing your cards are real.

Just to add, this isn't just about Reserved List cards and Legacy staples. I've seen Delson's list. His first run included more Theros than Dual Lands and over a 3rd of the cards are Standard legal.

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

This happens in every single game of EDH I've ever played. Reading the card doesn't take that long. This seems like a pretty shaky reason to want counterfeit cards.



"Cool?" This also seems shaky. If you're playing with disclosed proxies, more power to you. You say you care about gameplay, why do you care if your cards look "cool?" Proxies can look ten times as cool as real cards anyway.



And here's the meat of the matter, I think. You want counterfeit cards to "deceive" people because you think they're dumb or unfair for wanting people to play with authentic Magic cards. And you want to try this at your LGS events. This is cheating. Like, disqualify you from the tournament, ban you from DCI, you're not welcome back at this store variety cheating.

More than that, can you see how people would view your eagerness to lie to them because you look down on their preferences as offensive?

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Not immoral, just unethical.

MaximumC got in before my ninja edit.

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Originally Posted by Guie

btw, I'm not sure it is a question of morals, more ethics.

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As he has now made it clear that at least one of his purpose is specifically to "deceive" people at his LGS, it's really just a question of honesty. Regardless of the moralethicalwhocares, Magic tournament rules and his social group will punish him for doing this. It's just a matter of time.

Man, 1:20am and I want popcorn reading this thread... :D


@Dave: I doubt that the Moral-Club is any effektive if we discuss cheating on "friends" with indistinguishable fakes :/

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

This happens in every single game of EDH I've ever played. Reading the card doesn't take that long. This seems like a pretty shaky reason to want counterfeit cards.



"Cool?" This also seems shaky. If you're playing with disclosed proxies, more power to you. You say you care about gameplay, why do you care if your cards look "cool?" Proxies can look ten times as cool as real cards anyway.



And here's the meat of the matter, I think. You want counterfeit cards to "deceive" people because you think they're dumb or unfair for wanting people to play with authentic Magic cards. And you want to try this at your LGS events. This is cheating. Like, disqualify you from the tournament, ban you from DCI, you're not welcome back at this store variety cheating.

More than that, can you see how people would view your eagerness to lie to them because you look down on their preferences as offensive?

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It does take a long time, especially if all of your cards are fake, or when players recognize cards based on things like card art. The point is it does take longer and it does affect game play.

I care about gameplay obviously, but it's nice to have an accurate simulation.

I want passable proxies to deceive people, because because I think it's silly for people to refuse to play with me for a reason that has nothing to do with gameplay. "I don't want to play against your America Control deck because you only paid $100 dollars for it, oh wait, you paid $2500 and it's real, never mind, let's play, that changes everything!"

As for tourney play, to be honest, I'm not a big tourney guy so I couldn't see myself doing that, but I wouldn't judge someone who used passable proxies in a tourney and ended up winning. He still has to pay the entry fee, and whether he wins with a $3000 Stoneblade deck or a $100 version doesn't affect game play which should determine who wins tourneys, not arbitrary things like barriers to entry based around cash. Think about other rules at tourneys, things about no cheating your shuffling, not playing with marked cards, etc. All the other rules are designed to ensure fair gameplay. This rule is just arbitrary.

Ok, got me dude. But next time I'll really use the Ignore feature, although it makes threads messy.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is a good question. There are several reasons. One of them is because players are familiar with cards that are real or look real, other types of proxies, especially handwritten or sharpie proxies slow down and hinder gameplay because they encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint.

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CMYK xerox. Case solved.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Another primary reasons is because I don't see anything morally wrong about deceiving someone about my cards outside of a trade or transaction provided it doesn't affect game play. I know people who on principle don't want to play with fake cards, and they would never let me play with full art proxies, or sharpie proxies. Some of them don't provide reasons but are adamant about them, other people say that you should only be able to play with cards you earned or actually bought, but this is a silly arbitrary rule that doesn't impact gameplay. There are also instances where I will disclose I am playing with proxies, and those people won't care, but I still like my cards looking like real cards because it looks cool.

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From where comes your obsession with gameplay? You keep parroting the same two or three phrases all over: "gameplay experience", "baseless assumption" and "morale crusade". Ther are other aspects than just gamepolay, and even gameoplay might be affected by proxies/fakes/foreign/foil cards.
The people you play with (I'd be careful to call them "yor friends") made a public wish/warning that they don't want proxies/fakes at their table. You bring proxies/fakes? You cheat them, period. Do you understand? What you're doing is immoral.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Earlier someone said that passable proxies ruin the meta because they encourage players to arms race and start playing with stupidly powerful cards, not only can the same be said about regular proxies, but the same could be said about a wealthy player who just chooses to spend a lot of money on powerful cards.

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It's harder to do. It costs... money. One needs devotion. Also, that group may simply home-rule ban some cards. They may even ban that player. They may hate him out. And similarly, they should hate out anyone who brings proxies/fakes to their table, although they clearly said the don't allow them.
It's that simple. If your wife doesn't want you to date sluts, if your mother doesn't want you to smoke cigers in dining room, and if your friends don't want fakes at their table, you have two choices: obey or gtfo.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

By the way, what I said is, anyone who thinks that I shouldn't be able to play on an equal playing field with them because I didn't spend as much money is being petty. Specifically with the mentality, "you didn't spend $3000, so you don't deserve to play Stoneblade. You can play Stoneblade with crappy obvious proxies, but once it's similar to my $3000 experience, I have to put my foot down because you are having just as much of a MTG experience as me without paying for it. That's not fair." That's just elitist nonsense.

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So, you're not only cheater, you're also manipulator.
I don't care if you can or cannot play Stoneblade. (Btw, cry elsewhere.) But I do care if the flood of fakes (that you're helping to unleash) destroys reliability of secondary market, sends lgs to nowhere, or any other baseless assumption I may think of. So hwy should I value your "gaming experience" more than e.g. the credibility of secondary market?
And btw, you'Re simply lying. No one told you that you might play with crappy obvious proxies, but once it's similar to my $3000 experience, I have to put my foot down because you are having just as much of a MTG experience as me without paying for it. The people of your group told you to gtfo with any kind of forgeries. And we are saying to yout that you may play however nice proxies you wish to, but not at the expense of supporting the fakers who leech the community.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

I have heard many people (even in this thread) who have spent thousands of dollars on cards, but have no problem with passable proxies provided they aren't being used to dupe people financially, because they eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entry to play a game (how much $$$ you have) and encourage more competition.

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Change their opinion or gtfo of their table.

New friends; no problem

/thread

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

New friends; no problem

/thread

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How was your popcorn? :cool:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

How was your popcorn? :cool:

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Delicious. I owe you some for the Entertainment. (Reminds me that Slosh invited me for a Beer... Hmmmmm)


Blitz-edit: In case you missed it (as being burried on a previous page):

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Edit: BDP makes me feel embarassed not being able to speak/write even one staight sentence in czech :/

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

New friends; no problem

/thread

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If your options are:

(a) Lie to your friends; or
(b) Find friends who do not mind allowing you to do what you want to do

Then I think Lemnear's post is really inescapable.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Man, 1:20am and I want popcorn reading this thread... :D

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I know, right? It's hard to look away.

HonorBasquiat, you have several legitimate options.

- Convince your playgroup to allow good looking proxies that will not hinder gameplay.

- Ask if they'd be alright with you proxying the deck until you can actually save up to buy it.

- Find a new playgroup that accepts proxies.

I don't walk onto a golf course and expect them to allow me to play wearing my pajamas. If they tell me to put on some slacks then it doesn't matter if they are "selfish" or "petty" or whatever, it's because it's their golf course and that's what they want. If I don't like it then I can find a different golf course or put on some fucking pants. If my solution is to jump the fence and sneak onto their course anyways then I'm just another spoiled jackass in a world full of people that want their money for nothing and their chicks for free.

@Dzra: This thread is indeed like Coco Austin. Somehow disgusting and appealing at the same time... duh!

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I know, right? It's hard to look away.

HonorBasquiat, you have several legitimate options.

- Convince your playgroup to allow good looking proxies that will not hinder gameplay.

- Ask if they'd be alright with you proxying the deck until you can actually save up to buy it.

- Find a new playgroup that accepts proxies.

I don't walk onto a golf course and expect them to allow me to play wearing my pajamas. If they tell me to put on some slacks then it doesn't matter if they are "selfish" or "petty" or whatever, it's because it's their golf course and that's what they want. If I don't like it then I can find a different golf course or put on some fucking pants. If my solution is to jump the fence and sneak onto their course anyways then I'm just another spoiled jackass in a world full of people that want their money for nothing and their chicks for free.

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Even if my playgroup allowed good looking passable proxies that will not hinder game play, you all would still judge me just for purchasing or using them.

Wearing pajamas is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be like if the golf club had a rule that said in order to play golf, you have to wear a $3000 Armani Suit, but you bought a fake one that cost only $100 and no one would have no idea, they'd enjoy playing golf with you, but if you told them your suit was fake, suddenly they'd make a big deal about it.

My playgroup isn't stupid, they know that passable proxies don't hinder gameplay. They are against them for reasons that have nothing to do with gameplay and they like barriers to entry because they don't like the idea of other people having a near identical experience for the same cost, and they don't like losing to people who spent less money on cards than them.

So you want to lie in order to play cards you do not own against people you do not like.

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

So you want to lie in order to play cards you do not own against people you do not like.

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I like the people, and I really enjoy playing with them a lot. Much more than another circle I hate. I just think one of their rules is petty and arbitrary.

And how will they react once they know you have been lying to them? I can honestly say I would not be impressed with someone lying to me.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

Wearing pajamas is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be like if the golf club had a rule that said in order to play golf, you have to wear a $3000 Armani Suit, but you bought a fake one that cost only $100 and no one would have no idea, they'd enjoy playing golf with you, but if you told them your suit was fake, suddenly they'd make a big deal about it.

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I guess this is an alright analogy? I'm pretty sure that it isn't too hard for them to distinguish between a suit made of fine material and a cheap knock off. Regardless, the point still stands... it's their golf course and they have every right to make whatever requirements they like. If you respect them then your choices are to get an Armani Suit or play at a different golf course. If you don't respect them then why do you want to play with them anyways?
This isn't life and death we are talking about. No one is forcing you to do anything.

Are these fakes being sold on a particular website, or just on alibaba?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

And how will they react once they know you have been lying to them? I can honestly say I would not be impressed with someone lying to me.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

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The idea is they would never find out or if they did, it would be after a bunch of games and I would explain to them that they had a bunch of fun, so let's just keep playing.

The point about the golf analogy is that I don't know why I should feel bad about deceiving people about an arbitrary rule that essentially is pointless discrimination that doesn't affect game play.

Overall the point is, I'm not hurting anyone by playing with the proxies. We've gone a little off topic, but that's the primary point. If I'm not selling or trading the cards as real cards, I'm not hurting anyone, and you can't prove otherwise.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

The idea is they would never find out or if they did, it would be after a bunch of games and I would explain to them that they had a bunch of fun, so let's just keep playing.

The point about the golf analogy is that I don't know why I should feel bad about deceiving people about an arbitrary rule that essentially is pointless discrimination that doesn't affect game play.

Overall the point is, I'm not hurting anyone by playing with the proxies. We've gone a little off topic, but that's the primary point. If I'm not selling or trading the cards as real cards, I'm not hurting anyone, and you can't prove otherwise.

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I would be inclined to agree with you about the proxies if you weren't stressing that you intend to use your proxies to play with people who don't want to play with you--for any reason. You seem to believe that it is your right to play the game with whoever you choose, regardless of how those players feel.

You are intent on knowingly deceiving people into playing with you when you know for a fact that they wouldn't choose to do so otherwise. The fact of the matter is that there are apparently enough people who would percieve that their gameplay experience would be worse if they knew you didn't have real cards. It isn't up to you to decide what is arbitrary about how other people feel and/or choose to play the game. I personally don't give a shit what you do as long as you can be honest with yourself about what you're doing, and what you are doing is lying straight to people's faces for your own enjoyment. There is no way you can defend that notion in a way that makes you look like the oppressed victim you're trying to make yourself out to be. What you actually intend to do with your proxies is no better to me than actually trying to buy, sell, or trade them.

To change gears a bit:

Honestly, if I were to knowingly have counterfeit cards it would disgust me. There's a bit of a journey that comes with Eternal formats because of the increased cost of entry and counterfeits serve only to rob you of that. It felt like such an accomplishment late last year to get the last Tropical Island I needed to complete my full playsets of all the blue dual lands because it was close to two years coming and I carefully saved my money to get them all. I've had just as much fun playing Legacy as I have had getting real staples legitimately. Part of getting into Legacy, in my opinion, is the process of slowly acquiring staples and by getting counterfeits I feel like you'd just be cheating yourself of that aspect.

I mean, it's one thing to have a proxies with the intention of eventually replacing them with real cards but sticking with proxies and passing them off as real? I just think it'd feel really empty - even if you were the only one that knew.

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Originally Posted by Namida

I would be inclined to agree with you about the proxies if you weren't stressing that you intend to use your proxies to play with people who don't want to play with you--for any reason. You seem to believe that it is your right to play the game with whoever you choose, regardless of how those players feel.

You are intent on knowingly deceiving people into playing with you when you know for a fact that they wouldn't choose to do so otherwise. The fact of the matter is that there are apparently enough people who would percieve that their gameplay experience would be worse if they knew you didn't have real cards. It isn't up to you to decide what is arbitrary about how other people feel and/or choose to play the game. I personally don't give a shit what you do as long as you can be honest with yourself about what you're doing, and what you are doing is lying straight to people's faces for your own enjoyment. There is no way you can defend that notion in a way that makes you look like the oppressed victim you're trying to make yourself out to be. What you actually intend to do with your proxies is no better to me than actually trying to buy, sell, or trade them.

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It's for a reason that is totally arbitrary. It would be like a player who thought I was Mexican, but if they found out I was Black, they suddenly didn't want to play with me anymore. What I'm doing is much better than selling or trading them, because what I'm doing doesn't directly harm anyone. I guess you can argue it's deceitful, but it really doesn't affect anyone, it certainly doesn't affect gameplay.

Interesting that you would agree with me otherwise. What if I played with a group that didn't have a stated negative position on proxies, but I played them with passable proxies without mentioning they were proxies? So as far as they are concerned they are just real cards, I don't tell them, but as far as I know, they don't even have a problem with proxies.

What if I played a group that was fine with proxies, but I decided to use my passable proxies without telling people they were proxies? Would you have a problem with that?

Edit: Grand Superior: You say that "art of getting into Legacy, in my opinion, is the process of slowly acquiring staples" but why do you feel like that? I feel that Legacy is about playing an interesting format. I mean would you feel that you would be cheating yourself if I won the lottery tomorrow and made the decision to just buy your deck for you?

Stop using the term "passable proxy." Proxies are meant to be stand-ins. Proxies are not meant to trick anyone. People make their own realistic proxies all the time. What you would like to acquire are counterfeits. Counterfeits are meant to look real, so real that you can fool people into thinking that they are real. When you say "passable," what you really mean is that when someone tries to determine if your card is authentic, it will pass some or all of the tests. That is a counterfeit.

Again, whether or not you've deemed someone's reason as arbitrary does not matter. If I decide that I don't want you smoking in my house then don't smoke in my house. If I decide that I don't want you tromping around with shoes then leave your shoes at the door. If I decide that I don't want to play with proxies then how about we not play with proxies. It doesn't matter whether or not you think my demands are stupid, if you come into my house or if you want to play in my playgroup then you better follow the rules or you can tell me to my face why you think there should be an exception.

Whatever you believe these players think about making proxies, I can guarantee you that they won't love the idea of you supporting a counterfeiting operation that by its very nature is detrimental to the Magic community.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Delicious. I owe you some for the Entertainment. (Reminds me that Slosh invited me for a Beer... Hmmmmm)


Blitz-edit: In case you missed it (as being burried on a previous page):

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Edit: BDP makes me feel embarassed not being able to speak/write even one staight sentence in czech :/

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But wait, I don't speak German. :frown:
It's a quote from a Czech movie Vyšší princip. And in fact it's not really appropriate to this thread, and I was really uncertain, if I may even use it in such a context...

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

So you want to lie in order to play cards you do not own against people you do not like.

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Thread in a nutshell.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

The idea is they would never find out or if they did, it would be after a bunch of games and I would explain to them that they had a bunch of fun, so let's just keep playing.

The point about the golf analogy is that I don't know why I should feel bad about deceiving people about an arbitrary rule that essentially is pointless discrimination that doesn't affect game play.

Overall the point is, I'm not hurting anyone by playing with the proxies. We've gone a little off topic, but that's the primary point. If I'm not selling or trading the cards as real cards, I'm not hurting anyone, and you can't prove otherwise.

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Good luck on the bolded part and I mean it really. The other parts are you missing our points. Completely.
Also, we're not standing at the court, so we are not obliged to prove anything. But when trying to change status quo, the one that proposes the change (in this case: you) must bring reasons good enough for the change. Your reasons... suck.

And, maybe you're not selling the cards, although from your previous posts I really can't say for sure. But instead of supporting your local alterer, or buying cards from the friend(ly lgs), you decided to support a factory that leeches the community. Also, what's going to happen with the proxies - set aside the fact that there's a difference between proxy and fake, a difference you resist to acknowledge -, once you'll find no use for them, will you honestly shred them, or... will you pass along? And even if you'll be honest, which (and sorry my bluntness) I highly doubt reading your previous posts about how you wish to cheat your friends, will the next person be similarly honest, or will (s)he just pass them along to unknowing chld? A small note, maybe unnecessary flame, but I can't help myself: seeing (thx Zilla!) how you're able to rationalize every of your move that goes directly against wishes of your friends and that may have bad impact on the whole community, I dare to guess you'll be able to rationalize even direct scam in a "what eyes do not see, heart doesn't hurt" way.

I urge you to stop with the "but you do not know if the fakes may harm anyone". First of all, there are several pretty relistic scenarios how the particular people might get harmed, all of them you simply ignore or pretend that those are not of your concern. Next, read again: you are wishing for a change, so bring us reasons enough to make us support the change. It's a human naturee to oppose changes and there are good reasons for this behaviour.
Overall, what I gathered from the last few pages of your posts, is that you're the sort of liberal/libertarian/libertine that thinks world ows him everything and that's unwilling to give way to anyone. Dude, it's not our trouble that you don't have money to spend on cards, and it's not our trouble you're unable/unwilling to play with proxies. (Btw, when you're so concerned about gameplay, tell us why a black-and-white USea is any worse than CMYK-and-coated one; both tap for :u: and :b: as already mentioned.) Again, I'm not going to take risk of my cards' value tanking - please, do not for 150nd time respond with "but you don't know if...", because we already told we do not know what shall happen; we simply don't gonna risk it -, so, in a selfish way similar to your selfishness, I'd simply say: I value my own profit over your joy from gameplay.Welcome (and now I'm repeating myself) to the world of particular interests.

I'm more than willing to help people in need. I give money to the beggars, ferry my co-workers and let sit the elderly people. You, are not a man in need. You're simply an entitled kid that wants things for cheap. In a world of particular interests, it's quite understandable. Just don't do it at my expense, even though just hypothetical/potential.

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Originally Posted by Namida

I would be inclined to agree with you about the proxies if you weren't stressing that you intend to use your proxies to play with people who don't want to play with you--for any reason. You seem to believe that it is your right to play the game with whoever you choose, regardless of how those players feel.

You are intent on knowingly deceiving people into playing with you when you know for a fact that they wouldn't choose to do so otherwise. The fact of the matter is that there are apparently enough people who would percieve that their gameplay experience would be worse if they knew you didn't have real cards. It isn't up to you to decide what is arbitrary about how other people feel and/or choose to play the game. I personally don't give a shit what you do as long as you can be honest with yourself about what you're doing, and what you are doing is lying straight to people's faces for your own enjoyment. There is no way you can defend that notion in a way that makes you look like the oppressed victim you're trying to make yourself out to be. What you actually intend to do with your proxies is no better to me than actually trying to buy, sell, or trade them.

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I'll sign this.

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Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat

It's for a reason that is totally arbitrary. It would be like a player who thought I was Mexican, but if they found out I was Black, they suddenly didn't want to play with me anymore. What I'm doing is much better than selling or trading them, because what I'm doing doesn't directly harm anyone. I guess you can argue it's deceitful, but it really doesn't affect anyone, it certainly doesn't affect gameplay.

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So, now we know you're entitled libertarian. Thanks for confirming. Also, I see that we're getting ever closer to what's the real problem here and what poisons the United States of Americans at least since 1960's: the omnipresent idea of people's entitlement to do w/e they wish to.
Dude, it's their right to not play with you. If they wish to, they may simply ban blacks or Mexicans or Czechs or whomever else they wish to. It's not like you have constitutional right to sit to their table.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Stop using the term "passable proxy." Proxies are meant to be stand-ins. Proxies are not meant to trick anyone. People make their own realistic proxies all the time. What you would like to acquire are counterfeits. Counterfeits are meant to look real, so real that you can fool people into thinking that they are real. When you say "passable," what you really mean is that when someone tries to determine if your card is authentic, it will pass some or all of the tests. That is a counterfeit.

Again, whether or not you've deemed someone's reason as arbitrary does not matter. If I decide that I don't want you smoking in my house then don't smoke in my house. If I decide that I don't want you tromping around with shoes then leave your shoes at the door. If I decide that I don't want to play with proxies then how about we not play with proxies. It doesn't matter whether or not you think my demands are stupid, if you come into my house or if you want to play in my playgroup then you better follow the rules or you can tell me to my face why you think there should be an exception.

Whatever you believe these players think about making proxies, I can guarantee you that they won't love the idea of you supporting a counterfeiting operation that by its very nature is detrimental to the Magic community.

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"But these are just baseless assumption! Moreover, I got right tromp over your bedroom in my muddy boots."


Man, I'm tired of your attitude, words can't even tell. You still cry how you can't or don't want to affrod real cards, but then you inform us that you wish to purchase Alibaba's fakes that are not really cheap in the first place. you don't care of possible impacts that massive counterfeiting might have, and you admit you gonna use those fakes to cheat your friends, all the while throwing around pieces of libertarian jargon and parroting the same three dogmas again and again. Do you really think you may convince us about your cause? Don't you realize that with every new post of yours, you just bring more and more shady reasons and excuses? I for one won't be supporting the fakers, for the reasons I already stated and you refuse to give them any weight, because they ar not your reasons. So, my dear friend, I won't care of your reasons. If you think you have right to ignore my concenrs and call them "baseless assumption", I will simply ignore your concerns and reason and do whatever is in my pwoer, to stop you from acquiring the fakes and using them to cheat your friends or any unknowing buyer.

And, when we're at it: I'd be really glad if you'd disclose what you're going to do with the proxies once you'll get tired of the decks or acquire the real or, you know, get into any kind of financial trouble. Will you be so kind to scrap them, or will they be passed to someone else, who simply might be unscrupulous scammer? Oh, the baseless erections again, I know.


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...psc1116314.jpg
I bought these cards from members of community, and in case I'll change my mind, some of my friends may play them in tournament. They're real and they cost nearly nothing.


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...psb39340ab.jpg
Some player got money for these cards; maybe our lgs got my bucks and thus moved closer to financing another Legacy event. I got sets of Swords so that I don't need to switch them between Erhnamgeddon or Crusade or The Deck or TurboStasis or Gargoylehaups or w/e I wish to build. And I got several Armageddons in case Lord Košík or Dr. Braunheld or Altered Ego or Miss Directed needs some of them for the kitchen table. If I'll get in some financial trouble, I may sell them. What will you do with your fakes, may I ask?


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps55c2cd73.jpg
Yes, I hoard cards that havepotential for unban. It's not like someone is missing them right now, and everyone might be similarly wise (or silly) to do the same as I do. One day in a future, these will finance my missing fourth real Volcanic Island, all the while some of my friends might save lots of money when purchasing these cards from me instead of some card shark over the globe.
It isn't that hard, it doesn't cost much and it's not immoral: I'm not guarding a sealed granaries in a time of raging famine. I bought worthless peices of cardboard (no one's missing these variously banned and restricted cards) and plan to sell them to weirdonerdos some time in a future. Not my trouble that Magic players are oversized children.

You went over a lot of stuff. I'll say this, you can call me a liar and attack my character, but whatever, think what you want. I wouldn't sell or trade fake cards while passing them off as real cards. As far as what I would do with them when I was done. I don't see myself getting rid of them. I never thought that far. I seldom get rid of cards now, but when I do I'd sell them, and I obviously can't sell proxies as real cards (that's a clear violation of my moral compass). Perhaps I'd sell them as fakes to other people, and I guess they could potentially con people. I guess I won't do that now. Maybe I might not even play with people who are adamantly opposed to playing with proxies without disclosing I am playing with fakes. I still think it's stupid and petty to refuse to play against proxies. The only argument against playing with proxies that makes sense to me is that they could slow down and hinder game play, but passable fakes don't do this.

I still don't believe that what I'm doing (purchasing passable fakes) is harming anyone. I still hate arbitrary barriers to entry without play. I still am not breaking the law. I still haven't heard a good reason why me having a similar experience to a real experience without the cost affects you. You ask me if I care about gameplay so much why do I want passable fakes, but I care about passable fakes because I enjoy the concept of having a real-like MTG experience but I don't want to spend a small fortune. You might see that as me being an entitled person, but I'm not harming anyone. You claim I have the burden of proof, but that's not how it works. You are making a claims that apparently are realistic when in reality they have no basis. All the evidence shows I am right. If you look at the precedence for any other trading card game (YuGioh, Pokemon, Sports Cards, etc.) you'd see that counterfeiting doesn't harm the value of the cards. There are already hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of passable Magic the Gathering proxies in the wild, and the sky isn't falling. In a month or so, there will probably be millions of dollars of worth of passable fakes that will enter the market, but the sky still won't fall. This is because there will always be demand for real cards, there are players like yourself on principle that will never buy fake cards, there are collectors that will never buy fake cards, etc.

Also, I wouldn't see the harm in playing with people who are fine with proxies, and playing with passable fakes without telling them. I also wouldn't see the harm in playing with someone that didn't explicitly mention a disdain for proxies without mentioning that my cards are fake. How do you feel about that? We can all agree that passable proxies don't hinder game play, but also I don't feel like I have a moral obligation to disclose that I'm playing with proxies and I certainly don't feel that me playing with passable proxies harms or affects anyone.

Unrelated note: I found the german sentence pretty fitting *shrug*


I'm confused 'bout the purpose of this thread now. Is it "waiting for people who support my POV that counterfeints are ok"? Anyways, I doubt that the plan to clear up the Situation after a few games and proceed does work out. These "friends" seem to be a bunch of big headed and racist assholes and I urge you to find a new LGS and peeps, as I suspect those people rather blaming you for cheating/marked cards after finding out about your counterfeints instead of giving you a warm welcome because you are a good pilot/person/whatever. That shit can you get easily kicked out if the store if they claim to the store owner that you are here trying to sell that crap (we know ya won't as you told here many times) and/or are rewarded with a DCI ban once that info is forwarded.

/sincere advice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Unrelated note: I found the german sentence pretty fitting *shrug*

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I'm not sure if it's fitting. "Die Sache ist erledigt" is what the SS-man said to the gymnasial professor when he came to plead for his arrested students. The students were just shot dead.


Ok, so this thread is now officially useless. Everyone who wishes to gather some serious information on how the falsificates look and feel like, follow the link in my signature that leads you to this post of mine where I gathered all the scattered knowledge.

The sentence is completely fine to Highlight that a task is finished ... guess the Situation you heared it in the movie just left that bad taste in your mouth I can understand after you mentioned the scene

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The sentence is completely fine to Highlight that a task is finished ... guess the Situation you heared it in the movie just left that bad taste in your mouth I can understand after you mentioned the scene

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Exactly!

Hey now, I'd consider myself to be a libertarian. ;p I think HonorBasquiat falls into the "entitlement camp," which is basically "just because someone else has it means that I deserve it too." Everything I know about libertarianism suggests that you should be responsible for yourself and not expect handouts or entitlements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

So, now we know you're entitled libertarian. Thanks for confirming. Also, I see that we're getting ever closer to what's the real problem here and what poisons the United States of Americans at least since 1960's: the omnipresent idea of people's entitlement to do w/e they wish to.
Dude, it's their right to not play with you. If they wish to, they may simply ban blacks or Mexicans or Czechs or whomever else they wish to. It's not like you have constitutional right to sit to their table.

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I think you're confusing libertarian and modern Liberal ideals. The entitlement attitude is LIBERAL.
Perhaps this is a language thing...

Might be a language thing. No matter what, lets not mob the guy anymore. You know what's most saddening? That I wholeheartedly agree that the prices of cards are ludicrous and that something should happen with them. Where we differ is that I don't want it for the cost of massive prints of fakes, because those may bring lots of unexpected and unnecessary trouble.

Lets start some other discussion.
Guys, what do you think about Brainstrom? Should it be banned?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Lets start some other discussion.
Guys, what do you think about Brainstrom? Should it be banned?

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I hear this deck called Thunderbluff is making a come back because of Theros block...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke

I think you're confusing libertarian and modern Liberal ideals. The entitlement attitude is LIBERAL.
Perhaps this is a language thing...

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A normal liberal just wants to avoid people dying in the streets from lack of food / shelter / medical care while minimizing the effect of being born into and advantaged background on the individual's ability to determine their own station in life through hard work.

The guy posting in this thread wants to play fake magic cards to fool people who do not want to play fake magic cards into playing with fake magic cards.

"But it's ok because reasons...."

Sure whatever. He actually reminds me of Raskalnikov from Crime and Punishment. You go break the rules because The Rules Do Not Apply To You and you're eventually going to be punished by both the LGS, the DCI, and the play group when they apply the rules to you.

So, has the latest counterfeiting sale run its course? Are we done with this particular batch now, or is China gearing up for another shipment of better quality?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke

I hear this deck called Thunderbluff is making a come back because of Theros block...

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Good to know, my foil double signed in pure silver by Madonna and Maradona mongolian Didgeridoos may reach the threshold of 250 dollars per set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

So, has the latest counterfeiting sale run its course? Are we done with this particular batch now, or is China gearing up for another shipment of better quality?

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Nobody knows... :frown:

Lol @ liberals being more entitled than libertarians. Liberals aren't entitled because they actually contribute to society by paying taxes for the services they want provided, and they advocate higher taxes so those services can be available to people other than themselves!

What do libertarians contribute? Serious question. Because opting out just because you don't want your money to help some unwashed beggar seems way more fucking entitled to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if SCG hasn't been lobbying Wizards to give them the blessing to print proxies for use in SGC events. Ever since the "roundtable" WoTC held with Bleiweiss regarding the reserve list I've been disturbed with the incestuous relationship between WoTC and SCG. They get insider information like God books and who knows what else.
Magic is "too big to fail". Correction; Eternal formats are too big to fail and the big boys like SCG need to avoid the bubble bursting.
Wizards doesn't need to to jack about reprints and eternal formats. They make $$ from standard product. The irony is that if collectors are forcing Wizards to keep the reserve list "promise" then they will see their investments collapse under the weight of the market (eventually). These pieces of cardboard are collectibles, and every collectible market collapses. At some point people stop caring and stop buying.
Whatever, this has been said before.
Excuse my rambling, I'm bored...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke

I wouldn't be surprised if SCG hasn't been lobbying Wizards to give them the blessing to print proxies for use in SGC events.

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As long as they hire some of the artists who are worth a damn and stop using the crap artists who do their token art, that sounds fine to me. Look, I'm sure they're fine cartoonists, but it's a problem when your professional produced tokens are not as good as amateur full-art proxies put together by some nerds on MTGSalvation.

Where can I buy these proxies?