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there are sumbmerges in 3x! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
anyway, speaking abount goose and treasure: the gain of draw 3 is more the lose the threshold many times. and when you draw 3 you'll see that in 1/2 turns goose come back in threshold!!! :cool:
Unless it gets countered, then you just neutered your win con...Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
yes like when they counter keys spells in all onther deck!Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Other spells don't have Delve...Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
as you want, don't play ancestral recall :tongue: i prefer to risk draw 3 cards than take a counter!Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
That's really strange list. Why two Snares main and no Pierces? Also, those missing Cages in sb... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
maverick is a pretty tough matchup that can become winnable with submerge. its also good vs. elves, BUG, and infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
just test it. youre right on paper, but not in reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
I don't understand why you want to keep jamming Treasure Cruise in this deck. Why would you want to play a BAD Treasure Cruise deck, when you can play a good one (UR Delver)?
It makes Goose way worse, it shrinks Goyf in the Treasure Cruise mirror, it's a dead card a lot of the time, and what exactly are you drawing 3 of? Daze? Stifle?
This card is so far off our gameplan, changing the deck to run Treasure Cruise might as well be a different deck.
I see a point for one of TC as a late game bomb where the occasional REB/FoW blow out shouldn't matter that much. But then why evenn bother?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide
I think TC doesn't belong in RUG and there are other decks that use the card much better, but I'll remain silent as I never really tested it, and B88's results speak for themselves.
Hey Guys,
after playing the whole year with TA (lastly Deathblade), I want to give the king of Delver decks a chance again :laugh:
What do you guys think of Hooting Mandrills? Sure he get`s plowed but that`s it.
With his resilency against AD, Bolt & FB he has "pseudo" Shroud and also is castable under a "balance lock".
When I played RUG in the past the mongoose got stoped a lot by TNN, BS, Mother, Arbor+Ranger, Flickerwhisp, opposing Goose etc. and the advantage of Mandrills is that he doesnt care about those cards because he has this great trample ability. I really like his aggression & the fact that he is still big after a resolved RIP.
Sure the current meta plays more Plows than a couple month ago where everybody played AD but still I think he`s reasonable.
What do you guys mean?
Greetings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
@Manipulato- Nimble Mongoose is a brick house against U/R Delver and Urw Stoneblade, they can't answer a 3/3 shroud and it is therefore an excellent source of virtual card advantage, I wouldn't recommend cutting it.
2nd on a 14man tourney with RUGMandrils (3-1)
got me some store credits in which i havent decided yet whether i go buy spellkites for my infect deck : )
creatures (13) = 4 delvers/ 4 goyfs / 3 mandrils / 1 tnn / 1 vcliq (shouldve been the 2nd tnn, the guy who borrowed my own was not present that day, switched back to cliq last minute)
lands (18) = 4 wooded/2 tarns/2misty/3volcs/3trops/4wastelands
spells (29) 3stifles/2tarfires/1 fice/3pierces...then sets of bolts/fows/dazes/ponders/bstorms
helpers: 2pithing needles/2roughs/3pyroblasts/2submerges/1dismember/1ancient grudge/1destructive revelry/2grafdiggers/1surgical extraction
i had a good run lately with my uginfect deck, and most of teammates fell to the 1 mana stonerain trap. it’s been always fun piloting my old reliable especially when it’s under the radar, been expecting urcruise and combo, and upon testing..urcruise has had troubles with green monsters..whatever it may be...goose/goyf or kingkong.
match1 (2-0) vs juancho, LEYLINES
just cruised vs this matchup as i was able to waste their white gaea’s cradle and countered timely crop rotations, 2nd game when he was able to land an opening leyline void, good thing i had a revelry on my hand to eot destroy it at some point, mandrils and goyf got there.
match2 (2-0) vs erik, ANT
expecting facing an infect, upon presenting my wooded turn 1, he got careless and was stifled the time he fetched, then i immediately followed it up with 2 delvers..game 2 when he went off, but was so unlucky to get any of his petals or a LED, his adnaus got him.
match3 (2-0) vs wilson, ELVES
again, he knew i was on infect and got punished by stifle, he kept a one lander : ), game 2 when he managed to resolve an ooze with a cradle on play but tapped out, i topdecked a ROUGH for the win, he never got back after the wrath.
match4 (1-2) vs mark, ESPERBLADE
wasnt able to control his mana and got slewed by batterskull, game 2 where i locked him down with 2 early needles to name delta and strands! i love it, easy win for me...game 3 i know im almost ahead, i carry every removal i have, bolts, rebs, grudge, backuped with counters but was facing a resolved rip. i submerged all my monsters via bstorm...i was looking for tnn or delver, they showed up very very late..i landed a vliq but just got stp’ed...if it’s the 2nd tnn i could have won.
over all i was impressed with my current tweak of just 3 mandrils, provided me fast clock vs any unfair and will not have issues with opposing tnns, tokens, armies of elves..somehow i was still lucky to face combos on the preliminaries that carries less removals, up’ped my crit count to 13 coz almost all of em are targetable since i benched goose, if it was vs removal.dec...somehow it’ll be a different story line.
Not in relation to the RUG list but Spell Snare is a very good card in the meta right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Stoneforge Mystic
Young Pyromancer
Snapcaster Mage
Counterbalance
Rest in Peace
Chalice of the Void @1
Umezawa's Jitte
Tarmogoyf
Scavenging Ooze
Hymn to Tourach
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Elvish Visionary
Infernal Tutor
etc.
People tend to beat you in this meta with the things they land at 2cc or cast on turn 2 before you're ready for them. 2 Spell Snare is probably too many in a tempo list but 1 main and 1 side is probably good most of the time.
@ Poxy: Congrats!
@ Fool: Yes, that's right, but I'd still want some Spell Pierces in main, at least to stop early Terminus, Liliana or any other gamebreaker.
Slide:
3 Spell Pierce/3 Stifle or 2 Spell Pierce/4 Stifle? I feel more comfortable with 3 Pierces. What´s your opinion about that?
i don't understand why you speak without testing it! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide
It adds length to the deck. I agree, in a perfect game, we never need treasure cruise. In my experience, however, its great in the grindier match ups that Im sure youve experienced playing the deck. Its also been really good for me playing against ur, when they get a bunch of cruises off. You can keep them from running away with the game by matching their 2+ cruises with 1-2 because our cards are better, and enough spells are being cast to keep the graveyards full.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide
That said, at my flg legacy this sunday with 15 people, cruise and mongoose clashed with each other way more than usual. I dont think I resolved a single TC in the 4 rounds. I ended up 3-1 (losing to miracles), however, so it didnt ruin my tourney. I was able to to pitch it to FoW most of the time, and it actually got my opponent to misplay a thoughtseize twice. Definitely evidence for not playing it, though.
"Treasureless" "Traditional" RUG Canadian Threshold / Delver with good old "Mongoose" again in the top 8 (1x) and top 16 (2x) at SCG Portland (2014/12/07) :tongue: --> http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=09/14/2014&end_date=12/07/2014&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20&city=Portland#content_decks_legacy-tab
8th place: Steve Mann
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=77183
Flex Spots: 2 Pierce / 2 Forked / 2 Probe.
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Electrickery, 1 Hydroblast, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Rough.
12th place: Manuel Dizon
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=77184
Flex Spots: 2 Pierce / 2 Forked / 2 Probe.
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Ancient Grudge, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Pyroblast, 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Submerge, 2 Rough.
I would be very glad to read an article about their tournament experience and SB choices here :cool:
Also congrats to all other pilots sharing their latest success here in this thread!
Still well positioned in the metagame, great!
I would always keep Stifle as a 4 of. In my opinion, you either run 4 or you run none. If I didn't run Gitaxian Probe, I would either run 4 Pierces, or 2 Pierces and 2 Spell Snares. Probe makes your deck 2 cards smaller, so I'm not too worried about only having 2 pierces. I'll go into Probe more later on in this post...Quote:
Originally Posted by SORO
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have tested it. My opinion is informed.Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
Yes, in my testing it's pretty decent vs things like Miracles, but it just made the game longer and I still wouldn't win. The problem in the Treasure Cruise mirror is that I found myself not wanting to cast it to not shrink my Goyf/Goose so I could play defense. UR Delver is faster than us; I believe we need to play control in this matchup. Their threats are all vulnerable to our removal/bigger creatures. Getting rid of half of that equation to draw cards was bad, in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by sea
I think your experience speaks to how the TC/Goose combo is bad: it adds variance to the most consistent deck in the format. That's something we do not need when we're a deck about nickle and diming other decks out of the game. UR Delver is simply a better Treasure Cruise deck because their deck maximizes putting cards in the graveyard for Cruise and nothing else; they will consistently cast Cruise with no downside.Quote:
Originally Posted by sea
Ok -- I'm going to talk about Gitaxian Probe now, with some relations to Treasure Cruise.
I really like Gitaxian Probe, especially in an unknown meta/large tournaments/unknown opponents. It helps smooth some draws, gives us info to make good plays, and fills the yard. All great! My problem with it is this:
1) It is best on turn 1 and then becomes worse (less cards in their hand as the game goes on = less info gained)
2) The lifeloss is relevant vs UR Delver (and burn, which I think is well positioned, drawing it in multiples makes it a Street Wraith)
3) It SUCKS to Brainstorm into.
I've been debating on cutting it down to 1 copy/entirely, mostly because of the third point (which Treasure Cruise also falls into). I think if it were Spell Pierce/Snare, it makes our "You do something, Brainstorm in response, find a counterspell/removal and answer your spell" play a lot better, which in my experience playing the deck is VERY relevant; especially if you are playing Brainstorm patiently and correctly.
So, I'm going to test cutting down to 1 Probe and adding a Spell Snare (seems real good in the meta right now, especially VS Miracles).
In other news, looks like 2 Classic RUG decks made top 16 this weekend. Those maindecks and one of the sideboards look awfully familiar...
A sidenote: those scg sites are such a pain, I'm still not used to the ***** Delver nonsense...
Congrats to both pilots!
Those names confuuse me too. I ask newer players what colors they represent all the time. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Its weird how scg has adopted the new khans names, but still aren't using the ravnica ones for u/r delver.
Steve Mann decklist is missing 3 SB cards, probably the artifact hate, but that still leaves 1-2 slot undefined. Does anyone knows what they are?
I've eschewed probe. While I love the information, the reasons Slide listed (in addition to the presentation of current threats) has made me go 2 pierce, 1 snare, 2 chain lightning, 1 fire//ice. Spell snare has been really good this past month for me and I have a second in the board. Carsten's article on SCG today highlights why it's positioned well.
4 Stifle all day, especially with the vulnerable manabases.
All those SCG lists are basically the same. There is no way 2 rebs but 1 pyro is correct when you might need threshold and I'm not a fan of vortex, but it's winning so what do I know
Had my small local this weekend and finished 3-1. Finishing top 4 for $42 bucks store credit.
I beat Elves!, UR Delver, and Painter. Losing to Burn. I am running the "stock" list of 54 with x3 Spell Pierce, x1 Spell Snare, and x2 Forked Bolt.
The 3rd Spell Pierce is in the main to free up a slot in my sideboard. This also pushed Probe out of my main board as I cut another one to make room for the Snare as well. The one-off Spell Snare hit a lot of relevant cards and at it's worst was a blue card for Force. UR Delver just can't handle Goose and Goyf. Post board Painter feels like a pretty positive matchup. Just need to keep counters for Blood Moon effects.
This is my sideboard -> x2 Rough, x3 Pyroblast, x1 Vendilion Clique, x1 Pithing Needle, x2 Grafdigger's Cage, x1 Krosan Grip, x1 Ancient Grudge, x3 Submerge, x1 Sulfuric Vortex.
Rough did a lot of work for me out of the sideboard (getting two creatures about every time). Burn really sucked to play against. I am going to replace one of the Submerges with a Zuran Orb because I had no strategy to even attempt to execute.
hey guys, what do you think about cutting completely the Submerges and adding more burn cards into the SB ?
That's my sb in the current meta:
3x Rough//Tumble
3x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
2x Price of Progress
1x Vendillion Clique (maybe a Sulfuric Vortex)
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grafdiggers Cage
Greets
PoP is great vs Lands, Shardless BUG and Blade variants. Submerge is worth its weight in gold against Goyf decks, Elves, Infect and Maverick. Am I missing some relevant deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by index
So it is a meta call as always.
I don't think that you may cut Submerge, unless your meta s extremely predictable and devoid of green. There's always at least some Goyf, kotR or anything else roaming aroud, and against BUG, you got no other tool how to get rid of Tombstalker.
So it's a meta call, as already said.
with maverick, elves, and RUG all doing well recently, this seems like a really bad time to take submerge out of the board.
I completely understand Index submerge has seen better days when RUG Delver and Maverick were both Tier 1 during 2012. Number one targets where opposing Tarmogoyfs and Knights but these creatures are pretty rare nowadays.
What i really like are the 3 rough/tumble in your sideboard in order to plague wind our opponent if he is on UR/UWRDelver.
Those creatures were in half of the top 8 of the last major event, and there was an elf deck to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Submerege goes in against 5/8 decks in the top 8 at scg portland.
Don't understand me wrong, submerge is a super awesome card. And also super effective vs Marit lage.
But Rough/Tumble does the job much better vs elfes than 1-2 Submerge. And it's also super vs UR Delver wich is the most played Deck atm.
Quick question if anyone could help me out some with sideboarding tips? To be honest I should know these by heart now and its probably just nerves getting to me. Anyways on to the actual questions:
Running a singleton Sylvan main should be taken out against other tempo decks (UR delver, bug, Patriot, etc), storm and elves right? And left in against miracles, mid range decks like maverick/junk, and combo decks where our life doesn't matter as much like SnT and Reanimator?
Elves to be honest in my year and a half of experience with RUG I haven't really found a good way of sideboarding mainly because it just seems so bad of a match up. Goose seems like the worst threat due to slowness and can get shrunk very fast if they have DRS + wirewood (yeah I know kill drs on sight). At the same time 1 mana threat with shroud has advantages vs goyf that can get decayed and the other mana could be used for spot removal/cantrip. Both are arguably bad because of elves blocking them all day, but we still need some threats and one seems like it should be cut postboard. Would something like this be good (again should sylvan come out here? life loss/2 drop that does nothing seems bad, but finding rough and extra removal is key in the mu):
OTP: - 4 goose, 2 snare, 2 stifle // + 2 sub, 2 rough, 2 cage, Clique, needle
OTD: - 4 goose, 4 daze // + 2 sub, 2 rough, 2 cage, Clique, needle
Miracles everytime I've drawn daze even otp sideboarded it just seems bad and something like flusterstorm or pyroblast is just better knowing the game will go long. Shaving a goyf and wasteland both seem correct as goyf is the weakest threat and wasteland kind of lacks luster here (enough to merit cutting 1 imo)
- forked bolt, chain, wasteland, goyf, 4 daze, // + 2 flusterstorm, 3 pyroblast, clique, needle, revelry
UR delver this is one I'm actually not 100% sure about since I was MIA through most of October and haven't played the MU much. Sylvan seems way to slow and our life is to precious here.
OTP: - 4 force, 2 chain, sylvan // + 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, 2 rough
OTD: - 2 force, 2 daze, sylvan, stifle // + 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, 2 rough
OTD keeping at 2 force seems good and the sylvan still goes out than something like shaving 2 daze and a stifle seeing as they suck OTD?
A lot of this is just based on miracles is the most skill intensive mu IMO which I've always felt is 50/50. Elves just has always been frustrating and I still haven't found that good of a sideboard I think. UR delver like I said I just fear due to lack of experience against playing against the new cruise builds. Any input greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
CK
1# I wouldn't board sylvan libary out vs any sort of combo/storm decks. Because it's the only way of CA we have and as you said lifepoints doesn't matter in those mu's. Vs Tempo/Decay decks i would board it immediately out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
2# Vs Elves! the right board plan should be -4 Daze -3/4 Stifle +any hate you have + flusterstorm. Because Flusterstorm is in every sitatuion better than daze and Stifle. Just don't let them enter the play, burn the creatures asap and land a goyf/delver. (because of this MU i cut the submerges and added a 3rd Rough/tumble and 2nd Cage which give me more flexibility imo)
3# Vs MIracles it gets a little bit tricky. When i play vs miracles i always look at my opp how he plays,tap out, is able to risk and anything like that. Then i decide how to board vs him/her. If he plays a little bit risky i keep my daze's in and board out the pierces and i go all on the tempo-plan. If he/her is very carful i go all on the controll plan. That means i board out all tempo ( Daze,wasteland and spell pierce) and board all the controll elements in(even things like sulfur elemental) And i wouldn't board reverly in in neather of the 2 plans.
4# After my testings (about 100 games) Vs UR Treasure Delver i think the right boarding plan is to go on the control-plan. I just board out any sort of tempo (daze, stifle) because they are able to play easyly around it, also they play more lands that produce mana which makes our stifle-waste plan just not good imo. And board in the flusterstorms/Pyros/Rough's. Which fits perfect with my SB ( see above ). Overall i thiink UR Delver is a very good mu for us. Just land a green spell, keep a burn spell in your backhand if they do any tricks with their Swiftspear and trample over them with our better creatures.
I hope i could help you a little bit.
Greets
Anyone who has experience with canadian ******** including standstills?
sounds maybe weird but that might be an opportunity to build a tempo oriented deck with heavy manadenial as we know it + a cardadvantage machine. could be our *treasure cruise* somehow.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying its good but it's worth testing it in my opinion.
Deploying an early thread/mishras factoy followed by a standstill is still a powerful play in legacy.
This is my first testing list after some testing games:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Forked Bolt
4 Fore of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Mishras Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
Anyone who can share more information/impressions about this kind of deck?
regards, Kai
Looking at this list I would say there are two major issues:Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
- The mana base is pretty terrible.
- The mana denial plan with Stifle looks rather silly if you plan for an early Standstill.
The first one you have undoubtedly noticed, so I won't go into detail about that.
The second one deserves a more detailed explanation:
The beautiful thing about Canadian Thresh is that almost no card is ever dead. The only card that is sometimes bad is Stifle (which is why some people cut it every now and then). Under Standstill, people tend to drop a few lands, and then break it when they feel they have an opportunity to fight whatever stuff was drawn with Standstill. Not very many people just break it right away. But the main point is: you don't get to decide. People know Canadian attacks the mana base, so if we give them time, they will take that time to draw a few more lands and play them. Stifle will proceed to be dead for the rest of the game.
You could try to negate this by waiting to cast Standstill until you have used your in hand Stifle, but until then Standstill is a dead card, and if your opponent manages to delay your use of Stifle, both are temporarily dead cards. So whatever happens, the two put together will inevitably cause you to have 1-2 dead cards in hand at times, which in such a cutting edge deck with fast but not extremely powerful stuff will cause you to lose games.
(Side note: in DreadStill people would run both, but there Stifle is never bad because of obvious reason.)
Concluding:
If you were to extensively test this idea, I would recommend cutting the Stifles. This makes room for an additional fetch (improving the mana base, which I feel is needed badly), and perhaps some more cantrips. Probe could be good here, since it will show you whether your opponent can answer Standstill or not, but since I didn't see any Ponders yet in your list, I'd probably play three of those first, in order to improve consistency.
Last remark: You now run enchantments that die. This improves Goyf quite a bit. Perhaps, if there is room, you could add the third and fourth of those.
Hope this helps!
I like the idea of Delver-go, Standstill-go deck, but Canadian Thresh isn't the one, imho. I believe that to use Standstill one needs a deck that utilizes it better (even Dreadstill ain't that good ever since Decay) and the fact that Stifle and Standstill might be unreliable from time to time, and that we still won't be able to win the attrition wars (2-3 SS against 4 TCs or CB/Top or JTMs or w/e), makes this idea weird.
I already thought about playing Delver and Standstill (I think that it was nedleeds who already mentioned that), but it was before KTK and now it seems futile.
Thank you for the quick responses, really appreciate that.
you both are absolutely right, the more i think of it the more i agree with your ideas.
this deck should maybe have more hard-counter like counterspell in the deck instead of stifle as stifle gets bad in the lategame.
the idea of playing a thread on turn 1 with standstill backup on turn 2 really appeals to me and i would like to build a deck around it, still not sure which spells are good for it.
I just saw Lam Phans Landstilldeck in the top8 of GP NY which is a tempodeck (!) and i was wondering if there is a way to build a *better* tempo-landstill deck
I think you should start a new thread in either N&D or maybe [SCD]. Imho the very good shell for Standstill are Faeries, and they got lots of them with flash (eot Fae, main phase SS) and they have solid etb effects, don't rely on instants and are redundant enough to not care of Decay, esp. with that faerie that gives shroud to other faeries. Aether Vial seems good, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
I'm not sure if Delver can effectively use Standstill. It's not an instant or sorcery, there are other tools for CA/CQ in blue, ones that even flip the bug, and the +1/+1 bonus for Goyf might even backfire. Not tomention the tactical problems asociated with card.
If I'd wanted to play Delverstill, it'll be very different build than RUG Thresh. And I'd played Misdirections, maybe, to save my bugs, Counterbalances and Dreadnoughts from Decay.