Karmic Justice > Hanna's Custody.
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Karmic Justice > Hanna's Custody.
And Karmic Justice sucks. Therefor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Totally forgot that Karmic Justice existed, and yeah, it was just a brainstorm; I have a playset in my binder (good ol' Rath cycle).
I've been running Elspeth (2 of) and Humility (3 of) for about a month, on workstation, but was gonna wait till I took it to a tourney to post anything aobut it. So far its rather fun, and annoys a lot of people. I'll have to check out the replenish. Running creatureless does help in some situations, but less so in others. I still find myself being raped now and again by an army of 1/1s. I keep 2 tabernacles main for just such a reason. Just a note though on the dutch build, why kor haven with humility? Just extra protection, or to keep the plainswalker alive? Also with humility I find myself relying on smokestack much more to win the game, so I wouldn't go lower than 3 of. I do like the inclusion of powder keg a lot though and shall have to try it.
I think Karmic might be a little better in a build like this relying on enchantments more and with replenish...ya never know.
That's exactly why :wink:. The 1-of seems random, but often when I do draw it, it comes in pretty handy :smile:.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
I understand this problem, however, I have no idea what to cut for it. Perhaps run a third and make it 61 cards (I'm probably angering the 60-card deck gods here; also; ZOMG 61 cards and only 24 landz! AMAGAD)...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
Karmic Justice looks good on paper, but there's never something I want to side out for it. Then, it never gets used and it just sits there in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
I'd try out one less O ring main and then one more smokestack. I used to sb out my trini's for karmic's versus survial. Helped to stop their sliver enchant/arifact destruction annoyingness. With humility this becomes less of a problem. I still have a love/hate relationship with Karmic though, I know its mostly bad, it rarely works out for me, but it just looks so damn good on paper. Also the few times I've used to against a deck dropping serinity its just made me smile so much.
Off to a better question though, is replenish really that good? A one of main? Do ghostly, humility, and o ring really make it worth it?
Oh, and it seems like you might need some of those tabernacles main in a deck with no magus. Otherwise you are gonna have a lot of decks that can just keep attacking with their 1/1s.
So many random ideas. Must playtest more!
Humility and Moat handles that. In theory :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
QFT! :smile:Quote:
So many random ideas. Must playtest more!
Those decks are crazy. Not in a bad way, just very different compared to 99.9% of the lists that I usually see. I am not really digging moats and humility as the only enchantments that stand in the way of savage rape by creatures if only because two white mana can be a bitch to get in an unlucky game and even some with deceptively awesome hands. Humility seems really awesome though. I like factories a lot in general, but with three humilities, most of the time you will be paying one colourless to make a factory a 1/1, while you opponent has a number of other 1/1's because you aren't running magus anymore. It is a two way street though and all of a sudden your factory trades with 'naughts I suppose. In that respect, it is awesome, but I am tempted to say [tentatively] take out the factories in favor of additional white sources in a build that runs both moat and humility. I understand the other uses of factory, but in a build that basically hides behind a moat ideally, factory seems sort of "meh".
Under humility factory is still a 2/2. So no worries, it just can't tap to give itself +1/+1 I don't think. Moat and humilty arn't the only thing, you also have 4 ghostly prisons. I'm not sure both moat and humility are needed together though. Elspeth can still make your factories attack for a decent amount in the air.
So in a sense, humility replaces magus of the tabernacle...I am actually not sure how this shores up our problem with single creatures being equipped, but it still handles tarmogoyf and stalker very well. So now Elspeth is going to be one of the win conditions and I assume its with indestructible tokens.
Although a mishra kill is always an option, It makes the deck really slow.. What happens to our swarm aggro match up,now that theres no more taxing for each creature they control? Although humilty does delay the game for you to be able to draw a ghostly prison.
One thing we have to consider and ask ourselves is
Does humility really do a better job than magus of the tabernacle? In what match ups is it good against, Does it make our positive match ups worse?
As for karmic justice, its still good against mass removal, but Hannas custody is better at targeted artifact removal. I think we should also be concerned about the enchantment removal as we would rely on humility and prison to protect us from creatures. Then our sideboard becomes too defensive.
I'm not sure about humility, how good it is or how slow it makes our already slow deck. I remember there were a lot of times I used magus to beat down.
I was actually expecting the replenish build to have a secret tech or something quite different.
Humility is good card but i think it doesn't fit the stax shell altogether. Yes it handles creatures very well but with krosan grip and other enchantment killing cards with no support like counter magic it would easily be crushed.
Against mono white decks that utilizes aura of silence & seal of cleasing your decks deffenses would greatly suffer.
The current geddonstax is good but still lacks cards yet undiscovered or printed to achieve an early lock, but if you shift the deck for early locking the mid to end game part would suffer bec. you don't have any threats thus your opponent could overcome your early lock, unless its a smokestacks lock, but smokestacks takes time before it could be maximized.
A card that maybe could speedup the smokestack with tanglewire is Meditate. It has 3 casting cost playable under trinisphere and can played on the 2nd turn if you where able to cast trini on your 1st turn without giving your opponent a great advantage.
@f|i[p]
Dragon Stompy is deck that uses trinisphere, chalice of the void, & lands that produces 2 colorless man aswell. It has lots of mana accelerants like simian spirit guide, seething song & moxens over geddonstax thats why it has a more powerful early turn drops.
Locks early then aggros mid to end of the game. DS's lock parts are magus of the moon, blood moon, trinisphere, & chalice of the void, it has 2 more cards that could be casted early on thus achieving a much earlier lock over geddonstax.
Enchantment/Artifact removals has always been a problem and would always be a problem, with or without humility.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Are you serious? Tanglewire has been tested and has been proven to suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
I don't see how running meditate could improve your early game
And besides even if the idea could work, what would the list look like? I don't think it would resemble GeddonStax at all.
If you're keen on trying the idea out on a Stax type deck I would suggest you use this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20460 or this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20246 as basis, or maybe post it on the Tez Stax thread.
The problem I've encountered with the current Stax build, is that often, a single strong creature can get through, with enough protection from the limited removal I have. You can see this happen in upcoming decks like Dreadstill and Team America, which are gaining more and more popularity because of good tournament results.
Most of these "I thump you with 1 big critter and make sure it survives long enough until you die"-decks pack blue, that's why I basically now include a plateau maindeck and boils in my sideboard. But this is only step 1 against these archetypes.
I've been quite negative about Elspeth, I know. I still would be, if you just simply try to fit her in the current Stax build. She needs a build tweaked to her likings, a world where all creatures are tiny and small. This she finds in Humility. She also needs protection until Humility is there; Ghostly Prison doesn't protect her, and because of Humility, other blockers than her own loyal soldiers and Mishra's Factory she shouldn't expect. But there is Moat to take most of the threats away.
The funny thing is, that Elspeth, Humility and Moat all have synergy together. Elspeth + Humility makes sure your tiny men can trade with Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers and Nimble Mongeese.
Humility + Moat makes sure no creatures can attack; this keeps you safe until you set up your lock.
Elspeth + Moat makes sure most creatures can't attack you. If a Tombstalker, Swans of Brynn Argol or a Trygon Predator comes flying overhead, you need to find outs in the form of Oblivion Rings or Humility, but after that, she's very safe again.
The Elspeth, Humility, Moat set-up is designed in a meta where Dreadstill and Team America are rising, but still can cope with any other deck. Normal Aggro never was a problem, and still shouldn't be a problem. Combo still has the same problems with our Chalices and Trinispheres. Control...well, the idea is that our match-up against control now is better :wink:
Let me explain some of the choices and functionalities in the following list (it's the same list as the second one a few posts back):
Dutch Stax with Moats
Code:Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Enchantments
3 Moat
3 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring
Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
Sorceries
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Replenish
Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
7 Plains
As noted before: Mishra's Factory rules the field when Humility is in play. No creatures are bigger. It gets even more fun with Elspeth and Moat in play: no creatures can attack you, and Mishra's Factory is an unblockable 5/5 because of Elspeth's second ability (checked with a judge, this ruling is confirmed).Code:Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Powder Keg (possible Teeg Killer)
3 Boil
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Replenish (post Grip reviver)
I've explained before that cards like Krosan Grip and Gaddock Teeg could pose problems agains us; that's why we have Powder Kegs and Replenishes in the sideboard. The 1-of mainboard Replenish acts as a little insurance mid-late game.
I took out Ghostly Prisons in this list. Yes, they have very good synergy with Armageddon, but in a list with Planeswalkers and Moat (+Humility) they seem obsolete.
I haven't tested this list yet, it's all just theory. I will test this list this weekend and Monday, and report back on Tuesday :smile:. I think that on paper this list looks solid; the only problems I anticipate are the aforementioned double white costs. That's why I might be inclined to play around with the manabase a bit. If this doesn't work, so be it. I must add that Marcel Gelissen (who ended up somewhere in the top 16 in a 141-man tournament) still hasn't given me his list, and perhaps never will. This is just my version of things.
This might be sort of a given, but another strike against humility instead of prisons/magus etc is that I usually am pretty stoked on my opponent eventually resorting to saccing lands if they try to dig themselves out of a lock. The bulk of decks I see don't really run a lot of creatures anyway, so humility might be something I want to look into testing for sure. There are many times(threshthreshthresh) for example, where a humility and magus are almost interchangeable as far as function is concerned for me. Maybe I am playing the deck wrong or something, but for a lot of matchups already good matches, I don't see a big difference between the two. Humility also makes some matchups better, but as pointed out previously, it makes some normally good matches worse.
For anyone that has been reading my thoughts on this and is wondering at my sort of circular thinking about the replacement of prison/magus, I am basically considering moat and humility the best two cards to go with if I am going to be cutting magus. The reason I am thinking this is that in theory my only vulnerability will be to swarm strategies and a single dude with a jitte or sword...I have even seen a rancor lately(!!) and I don't really want to fuck around with something that will make these situations just as bad. Two white mana for my defense cards might even be worth the extra slots opened up by the absence of magus.
It is only a matter of time before a purist comes and tells people why cutting magi in favor of humility is a bad plan, but in my somewhat limited opinion this deck will have to see some sort of radical attempts at innovation and eventually something awesome wil be discovered or it is just going to stay where it is in metagames as a really brutal deck to not be prepared for, but also really vulnerable to some dominant decks' inherent strategies.
Right now I am trying to figure out if I want to test a build with bridges/magi/prison/Elspeth or humility/Elspeth/Moat/O-Rings for protection slots. I'm kind of hesitant to ditch the magi just yet considering I have recently stopped playing angels(gasp). I haven't tested three bridges a lot, but so far, they have been treating me pretty well, the only thing that has come up was a kill took a bit longer than I would have liked because I wasn't able to pump my magus and swing over some guys while I was waiting for my opponent to start losing creatures to a smoker set on one and I was having shitty luck waiting for a geddon.
Here you are relying on your opponent to make a mistake. I prefer just making a stronger deck where it doesn't matter what your opponent sacrifices, he'll just die anyway. Plus, Magus and Smokestack don't really have synergy. It's the main flaw of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
There is a significant difference if you play Elspeth. Humility + Elspeth have synnergy. Humility + Magus have dissynergy (is that a word?).Quote:
Maybe I am playing the deck wrong or something, but for a lot of matchups already good matches, I don't see a big difference between the two.
It's not about replacing Prison and Magus, it's about including Elspeth.Quote:
For anyone that has been reading my thoughts on this and is wondering at my sort of circular thinking about the replacement of prison/magus, I am basically considering moat and humility the best two cards to go with if I am going to be cutting magus.
The list isn't coming from no-where. It's based on the idea of a deck that was very succesful. It had no problems beating a deck like Aggro Loam, a deck I cannot beat with a traditional list.Quote:
It is only a matter of time before a purist comes and tells people why cutting magi in favor of humility is a bad plan, but in my somewhat limited opinion this deck will have to see some sort of radical attempts at innovation and eventually something awesome wil be discovered or it is just going to stay where it is in metagames as a really brutal deck to not be prepared for, but also really vulnerable to some dominant decks' inherent strategies.
As far as my vocabulary is concerned, radical does not mean random or poorly-thought-out, it means a big change basically. Removal of magus, etc in favor of humility, moat and Elspeth is a big change in my opinion anyway. You don't need to defend your build against me for the most part because I think it is a good idea.
Dissynergy wasn't a word until you said it, but it works anyway =P
For me, including Elspeth was as easy as including bridges. Adding humility and moat obviously helps with running and abusing her(heh) more, but as far as I am concerned, even without her existing, they are inclusions that are worth a closer look. I think that I just got a wild hair up my ass and am going to play some matches with your list in the next few days instead of my bridge list, which more or less feels like 'geddon stax with bridges and Elspeth thrown...I don't know if that last part makes sense though: I am kind of tired.
I am liking the boils for sure though. It is nice to not get burnt by having a chalice for two down. Keg for Teeg seems kind of sketchy though...have you been having luck with that at all or is it still sort of preliminary?
That's why I gave it a new name: Dutch Stax :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Keg is not just for Teeg, it also does wonders against Ichorid for example. Anyway, I used to side in Oblivion Rings in a match against Teegs. These seemed not to be enough. Now I play Oblivion Rings maindeck, and have Powder Kegs as a back-up. And yes, against Teegs, has proven very useful. The decks I've played against which included Teeg, where mostly BGW Rock, so Powder Keg@2 cleared Teeg, Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. Yippeeka-yay motherfucker! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Oh yeah, for sure. I was sort of lukewarm on the idea of keg because I set chalices for two asap in almost every match I play, but kegs in for the second match means eight possible answers to two cc cards(though one is more temporary). I bet powder kegs probably prompted a "wtf?!" from your opponent. I'd be surprised to see a keg in a stax sideboard anyway...then again maybe I am just tired.
I took the liberty of ripping off your list, but replacing the sideboard tabs with Ajani, vengeants for a laugh. I have 99% of the stuff for white stax(or Skegstax as mws calls your list) at home and there are some dudes that play 1.5 where I am living right now, so I might just throw one list together and if I do, I have no tabernacles anyway...yet I have some moats.
I started a quick match with a dude on mws and he disconnected on game two who was playing some sort of goblin sligh jank(good cards in the deck, just janky), but with a few little fishes and that one half(or maybe third of a match), the deck has a way different feel than traditional builds. I don't know how I feel about it overall yet, but I am liking it on paper anyway. I think I might up the tomb/city numbers eventually with testing though.
Based off the one match I played, I am liking the moats and humilities for sure though. I never saw an Elspeth, but whatever. I'll get to see her in action tommorow probably. If I end up going in any little mini tournies with it, Ajani in the side might end up being something I like a lot because the deck feels a lot more like a concession deck than the builds that I am more familiar with.
Good work on the list though, I like its overall feel and function with the small amount of testing that I have done so far.
@erbs
I know what dragon stompy is, and I know how they play it, I was simply indicating that I have never played against a dragon stompy player...
@ elspeth
In my testing, when I played elspeth in place of my angels, I never really liked her at all, magus and prisons can't guarantee her protection. I would almost always rather have exalted angels in her place.
However, if elspeth is going to be protected by moat and humility, then it becomes a different story. Elspeth would almost be a perfect fit. Unlike magus and prison, moat and humility is a lock by itself.
My thoughts on the deck:
I think this version of stax almost has the same concept, but then now you wonder if armageddons should still be in the place they are in, The way I see it one of the main purposes of armageddon was to complement ghostly prison and the magus lock. having a moat and humility lock is enough on it own, you wont really need to blow up lands as much as we needed to when we had magus and ghostly prisons in that place. Armageddon still has its purpose but now that we wont be totally reliant on a geddon, we can probably cut their numbers to 3 and make more space for something else.
The deck looks very promising by itself.
Although I think the list should have these basics:
The stax core cards
4 moats
4 humility
2-3 elspeth
2-4 O rings, I think 4 O. rings is very excessive, I was quite happy with 2 main deck and the rest in the sideboard.
1 Replensih
Now we can go cut down to
3-4 armageddon
We probably can lessen the wasteland count and bump up to
4 mishra's factory
One of the problems I can think of, is Moat!... They are crazy expensive and very very hard to find... I actually think the card is over priced....
Great job skeggi... It was a very interesting find, now all we have to do is tweak it and prove that this is the way or another way to go in the stax archetype.
I hear you, Flip:
I haven't tested the tweaked version much so far, but in the next few days things will become clearer in regards to armageddon. Right now, I am not impressed with four geddons because while they are awesome, more often than not they are basically a way to lock off my opponent's ability to cast anything and/or force them to start saccing off non-lands to smokers. I still like geddon, but because its functionality has been some what reduced by the removal of main deck magi, I think I am going to see how cutting them back to three and maybe keeping one in my sideboard to accompany my magi is what I will go with. Right now, I am going to keep the four and see if I continue to feel the same, but I have a feeling geddons might see some cutbacks.
I have played against three different variations of stiflenaught and I have to say that the matchup is fucking outstanding with the changes now. Factories are somewhat annoying though and force me to rely more heavily on moat, wasteland and geddons. It isn't entirely bad, but a few irksome encounters with factories in standstill decks have made me consider adding a very European 61st wasteland.
Replenish has been feeling like a wasted draw more often than not, but I am sure that the singleton copy in the main will prove to be back breaking in matches that I would otherwise lose.
Edit: This is slightly off topic, but does anyone know of any online communities that have tournies regularly or people that don't suck to playtest with because legacy players are kind of sparse on magic-league and 1.5 tournaments are almost non-existent. People keep on disconnecting after game one with Skeggi's build and I am not getting much opportunity to test the sideboard.
Something I noticed with the sideboard, but hasn't bit me in the ass yet is nothing for the burn/sligh match really. I got really lucky against a sligh deck and managed to stall the shit out of him and get a chalice/3sphere down before a geddon with his hand apparently full of bolts, chain lightnings and seal of fires. It was a lucky game for me. Sphere of law(which has pretty nice synergy with humility imo) or whatever suits one's taste might be a good bet because until the end of the game(that Elspeth COMPLETELY DOMINATED) he could have easily gone incinerate--->fireblast kkggbai.
@dragzz
I was just suggesting that maybe it could help. Im not saying that it would fit perfectly.
Medidate could speed up the smokestack clock for your opponent and you have now the option in adding a counter on your smokestack making it 2 on the next turn since your opponent is under trinisphere he/she can't do as much and with the draw it gives it could give you an advantage by drawing more lock parts.
@f|i[p]
Good points on the armageddon + magus + ghostly.
With regards to elspeth when i tried exalted angel i never played elspeth again. In the current geddonstax exalted angel is still the best fit just for me.
________________________________________________
Humility + Moat
Is really a good combo but what i don't like about the idea is that it doesn't fit a stax shell that well. It would weaken the decks defenses in reverse.
Since you have Humility, Moat, & Elspeth you'll surely cut magus and angels on the deck and lessen several cards on the deck to accomodate 10-11 cards atleast. If you cut/lessen ghostly prision, armageddon, trinisphere, cow, smokestack, chalice or oring. If you cut/lessen the artifacts you'll be weakening the decks early turns, if you cut geddon, cow, & smokestack you'll be weaking the lock.
For me humility + moat is another way of dealing for creatures with abilities and singleton aggro creatures. But most of the time magus / oring could handle/block that singleton aggro creatures assuming they are not flying and with creatures with ability oring could handle it aswell.
If i where to add X cards to the current geddonstax deck i think adding another locking mechanism is much better that adding a new form of creature control.
Humility + Moat just for me would be better off in some other decks that maximizes enlightened tutor to quicken its application. With enlightened tutor it could fetch:
- moat
- humility
- ghostly prision
- oblivion ring
- sacred mesa / mobilization = another form of win condition
- tormod's crypt if needed
- defense grid if needed
- pithing needle if needed
- aura of silence / seal of cleasing if needed
- poweder keg if needed
the list goes on.
Adding 1-2 Serra's Sanctum would be nice if humility and moat would find its way on the geddonstax deck.
If i see the concept in the wrong way, please enlighten me im totally very much open in making geddonstax a much better deck in its current state.
What are the reasons that humility + moat would be included in current geddonstax list, what problems does it solve that the current list can't handle ?
Moat and humility so far have improved some normally not great matches and make Elspeth a more consistent source of fuel for smoker, rather than a brief distraction for my opponent some of the time and a smokestack-feeder other times.
Personally, I am still liking the change, but I haven't run into any swarm strategies or decks that could easily remove moat yet, excluding a janky rockish homebrew thing, which was horribly easy to beat.
@ cutting armageddon
You don't really need to cut armageddon to 3, all I am saying now you have the option to cut it from what used to be 4-5 , now we can cut it to 3-4.Its just that armageddon would have fewer uses.
@ magus
I was actually planning on keeping him on the sideboard as well but with humilities he becomes quite useless..although he would still serve as added swarm hate. This will however depend on the metagame
@Replenish
Yes replenish seems to be more of a back up plan for enchantments, I don't really think it belongs main deck. I think this could stay on the sideboard as a back up plan against grips and enchantment hate. I'm not sold on it yet.
With more enchantments in place, and less creatures I see the deck being less vulnerable to creature hate.
@ Red sligh or burn
In all honesty I would just rather have cop:red if its such a problem for you.
Its more mana intensive than sphere of law, but it shuts them down completely.
Also you have to understand, that if you know what deck you are facing you always have to mulligan to a good hand...or at least an acceptable one if you don't know what your facing...
I don't think it will weaken the decks defenses in reverse. In fact I actually think it strengthens the decks defenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
First you'll have to understand that moat alone shuts down goblins,goyf, goose, dreadnaughts and a lot more.
As for humility,Turning all creatures into 1/1's is quite positive. The only drawback I see with it, is facing a swarm of 1/1's. Even goblins which is the best aggro deck there is slows down with humility. If you compare humility to magus there are pro's and cons. Humility shuts down siege gang, multiple pile drivers, ringleaders, matrons sharpshooters etc., which magus does not(thus humility shuts down their alternate win con). One major problem with humility is that it doesn't block those 1/1's. That's why I suggested bumping factories to 4. Another is no apparent armageddon synergy.
If you can imagine goblins being hit by humility,meaning no ring leaders no warchiefs, no, matrons, no siege gang abilities. It will be like playing against a deck with every creature as 1/1's. Stax vs 1/1 goblins. Think of that. Although it doesn't change the fact that they can still out swarm you (added with tombs, this can still hurt).
Some match ups where moats and humility would still be useful (until they destroy it)
Survival
Aggro Loam
Threshold
Dreadnaught
@ replacing parts of stax
Its only our creature control that moat and humility would replace which means ghostly prison and magus. we are not going to lessen the stax shell as it is. Although because armageddon has less synergy with moats and humility, its one of the reasons I suggested cutting geddon to 3-4 instead of 4-6 (this will always be a player option).
Over all I don't think the lock would weaken at all.
@ serras sanctum, it will not belong to the deck at all, Imagine drawing serras sanctum without any enchantments in play. It wont produce any color at all.
Our problem decks like landstill and deed based decks would still be a problem.Stompy variants, will need testing.
You're right here. It would weaken the deck's defense in reverse. Weakening in reverse is strengthen. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Surely? Did you even read the list?Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Moat + Humility is a lock. The great thing about this strategy is that it doesn't require Armageddon to function. The traditional Armageddon Stax list relies heavily on Armageddon, everything in the deck has great synergy with Armageddon. So if an Armageddon gets countered, or you draw none, you're pretty much screwed. This lock doesn't require Armageddon and that's why it would fit in nicely. It's also why the deck's name is Dutch Stax.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Why do you ask questions that have been answered a few posts back?Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=1013
Sorry if I sound too defensive, the list hasn't been tested enough, so it can turn out to suck, I understand. But I'm slightly annoyed if you just bulge in and didn't even read the post and the list what it's all about.
I just wrapped up a match against monoblue dreadstill and it was a hard match for sure, but I am feeling like the new build is far, far better suited for beating the shit out of it. I didn't even side the boils in because I couldn't really figure out what to take out for them.
One of the big factors with humility and moat in this match which is hinted at in the post Skeggi just made is that 'geddon is not a required way to mitigate being attacked or whatever because both pieces are very strong individually, so a game isn't hinged on whether or not your geddon gets fow'd or whether you can manage to crucible lock them or not. This is a quality I sort of got an inkling about, but did not fully appreciate until my most recent match against dreadstill. I am seeing a metric fucktonne of dreadnaughts and goyfs right now, so I don't want one card that requires another to resolve in order to stop myself from getting raped because sometimes I am only getting one opportunity to resolve a piece for a while(for example when my opponent got a soft Venser lock on me and pulled a daze out of his ass...aka two card hand).
To be honest, I like the older magus build, which fits into more swarm-aggro metas(in my opinion), but even without Elspeth, I would be liking moats and humility because right now the name of the game for me is dealing with a dreadnaught/goyf/tombstalker with dazes,forces and whatever backing them up. All I have been seeing lately are decks that fit into those molds. I am really hoping I can test against some Canadian Thresh and so forth to round things out, but right now the new-fangled build is doing pretty well.
One of my few concerns during games has been not enough wasteland and factory though. I'm already running a sixty-first city, so stuff wil have to be removed once I get a better feel for things.
@Skeggi: I have been having issues figuring out what to side out for boils in blue-based dreadstill-type decks...got any insight there?
Dreadstill is basically three decks in one, so it is kind of hard to side well for in my experience.
@Skeggi
Here is the list im talking about.
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Dutch Stax with Moats
Code:
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Enchantments
3 Moat
3 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring
Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
Sorceries
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Replenish
Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
7 PlainsCode:
Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Powder Keg (possible Teeg Killer)
3 Boil
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Replenish (post Grip reviver)
_________________________________________
Your Post Skeggi
The problem I've encountered with the current Stax build, is that often, a single strong creature can get through, with enough protection from the limited removal I have. You can see this happen in upcoming decks like Dreadstill and Team America, which are gaining more and more popularity because of good tournament results.
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Dreadstill's Mana Curve is very low, if your able to drop trinisphere, cotv, or if you have it in the sb sphere of resistance, it would post very big problems for them. I don't think dreadstill packs tons of counter magic to be able to counter all your threats. And having such low mana curve countertop wouldn't help them that much.
A magus / ghostly prison + geddon combo would almost stop dreadnought in its tracks.
If your pushing for the moat + humility combo, i think you should push it to 4 of each since they are now the main defenses of the deck against creatures.
Why not add something or some sort of additional mana denial mechanism besides trinisphere & geddon so that your opponent would have a hard time casting them.
With humility and moat yes it sloves the problem of dealing with decks that runs 2 colorless lands & trini aswell.
In that list you lessen your early game lock by reducing your 2 colorless mana and decreasing 1 card for an early lock. You increase your mid to end game creature defense via moat and humility. They both have 4 casting cost and requires double WW.
With that list yes you have a solution against a second turn stifle-nought.
If you draw your 1 or your 4 moxens + 1 of your 6 2 colorless producing mana + 1 of your 11 white mana. And you hold an oring, humility or moat in hand. You have 10 cards that could deal with a 2nd turn stifle-nought against the old list which has 3-4 orings.
Humility + Moat is a creature lock indeed. But if some sort of mana denial is to be added i think it would be much better but that just me. Yes the list above doesn't rely greatly on geddon yet you still have 5 geddon effects, maybe you just forgot to lessen the number since it doesn't have much synergy with humility + moat.
Thanks for the Sarcastic Posts.
Sorry if my ideas sounds very noobish compared to yours which are great.
Against decks that play only blue based lands, like Dreadstill, Boil is strictly better than Armageddon because it's an instant. You can cast it in your own EOT in response to their cantripping and Topping for stuff. How useful are Oblivion Rings in this MU by the way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
The only target is Phyrexian Dreadnought. You may as well side in Powder Keg, as it also forces your opponent to put a Top on top. Edit: oops. Keg doesn't kill enchantments. Thanks DeathScythe :smile:.
Sometimes I play radically and take out the Smokestacks. Often cards like Pithing Needle (on Top or Flooded Strand) are stronger in this MU.
Still they often beat Armageddon Stax. It's because of the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
This is a three card combo. Dreadstill packs enough protection to stop an Armageddon: they may only pack 4 FoW and 4 Daze, but they use it on your Armageddon. They also play Krosan Grip to kill whatever Chalice or Trinisphere you may have. Ghostly Prison generally isn't a problem.Quote:
A magus / ghostly prison + geddon combo would almost stop dreadnought in its tracks.
This is a valid point. Testing will show what the correct numbers are, it could be that they need to be played 4 of each.Quote:
If your pushing for the moat + humility combo, i think you should push it to 4 of each since they are now the main defenses of the deck against creatures.
This has been tried before, with Sphere of Resistance or Defense Grid for instance. Often these things are useless with a Trinisphere out. But agreed, they do improve your chances of having a taxing effect on the table. However, like all taxing effects, it relies heavily on Armageddon to work.Quote:
Why not add something or some sort of additional mana denial mechanism besides trinisphere & geddon so that your opponent would have a hard time casting them.
Yes, as Flip pointed out, the number of Armageddons may be dropped. Testing will have to point out what the correct number of Armageddons is. I include 5 because it still is a heavy bomb you can drop.Quote:
Yes the list above doesn't rely greatly on geddon yet you still have 5 geddon effects, maybe you just forgot to lessen the number since it doesn't have much synergy with humility + moat.
In your post it looked like you didn't read the list. I've made arguments in my response as to why. If you have a problem with that, please contact a mod. I have no intention of polluting this forum with more of this.Quote:
Thanks for the Sarcastic Posts.
Sorry if my ideas sounds very noobish compared to yours which are great.
side note: keg doesn't kill enchantments
Actually, in the second game, I drew an O-ring and was like "oh fuck!", but luckily his build ran Vensers and trinket mages(though I never saw the latter hit play...I assume they were in there somewhere though). My managing to win the second game in this particular case was completely hinged on my using ring as counter fodder for venser first and then a way of stopping the lock(riptide) when he ran out of counters.
I could have cut them down probably, but I took a dilotid today, so my thinking process hasn't been what it normally is. During the matchup mentioned, I am pretty sure I smelled my hair burning at a few points.
Overall though stopping counterbalance/naught/wizard tricks has been a good reason to keep three in these matches. None of the games have turned out horribly and have been complete blow outs yet, so my thoughts on o-rings might change when that happens eventually. As it stands, I like 'em.
I actually did take a few liberties with the sideboard though because I had a really bad experience with another Rgb tarmo-sligh sort of deck that went heavily in the burn direction that was the final straw for the not being able to deal with burn in a really competent manner outside of 3sphere and chalice...
3xboil
2xreplenish
3xpowder keg
3xsphere of law
4xaura of silence
Heh, triangle sb. Anyway I felt sort of naked with no way to stop enchantments and aura works in the mirror, which I am fucking dreading.
One thing that I have been really surprised with so far has been the lack of issues casting double white casting cost cards, but like many things, that might change after a really brutal match against TA, DS or something like that. I have always sort of considered DS to be a write-off though and just leave it up to luck because making a absolutely fucking bad match into an extremely bad match that I need to play first in order to win isn't really worth it in the end to me.
With plenty of non-stacking permanents (Moat, Humility, "Replenish") plus Elspeth tokens to sacrifice, I would take a guess that Dutch Stax probably wants the full Smokestack playset. Especially since the decks it's aimed to beat run few permanents themselves.
@Mordel
If I know my opponent is playing a deck with few permanents, I tend to focus more on the lock itself. Having 3 O. Rings Trinisphere main, chalice, should really help against dreadstill... Sphere of resistance too if you ever run it on the side. I think this deck is particularly stronger than the ones with prisons and magus, as both ghostly prison and magus, will just be a minor annoyance to dreadstill. MOat is a must counter as well as Humility. Makes everything you have got pretty much a must counter..This will end up as land wars eventually. Elspeth would help here but only as a 2 of might be a problem. Pithing needles also help the lock naming fetchlands, wasteland, mishra or anything you need stoped from activating at all. Boil is a good card against blue, but if you face more dual lands and non basics,you can also use blood moon which comes a turn faster and makes mishra, dual lands(considering they dont have a red base) and wastelands useless mana sources.Since we run around 6-8 basic lands and mox diamond, it wont hurt us as much as it hurts them.
@ the deck
Splashing red is not a must. If you don't like it don't splash it. It was just splashed for an added out on blue.You can also stay mono white, and it would just be as strong.
Humility and Moat doesn't necessarily have to be together all the time. Humility alone makes creatures almost worthless. Moat will make more creatures look silly. IT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE A COMBO...
I don't understand why people insist that it should be a combo. I would rather suggest that people compare the creature hate individually.
Is moat > magus of the tabernacle ? why?
Is moat > ghostly prison ? why?
Is humility > magus of the tabernacle ? Why?
Is humility > ghostly prison ? why?
There are always up's and downside to each replacement we make, all we are trying to do is improve the deck. I have already mentioned some match ups where I think moat and humility is a lot better than ghostly and magus. And not depending armageddon to seal the deal just makes moat and humility a lot better.
I will state the problem I see again (with regards to humility being alone in play), swarm decks. But this won't even be a major issue. a bunch of 1/1's hitting you won't hurt as much. An equipped 1/1 would hurt however. With regard to goblins, a single moat would make em stare at the wall.
The problem of moat( in regards to being alone) is tombstalker,angels and faeries, basically anything that flies. If you can see this.. magus can't block them anyway. They never make a swarm of exalted angels or tombstalkers. So normally they would eventually play around ghostly prison too. Although an armageddon would seal the deal, that would be a 2 card combo just to deal with it. Then you see faeries would be a problem. But then putting down humility on them makes em all 1/1's. Which won't hurt as much.
Its a situation to situation basis really.Sometimes, if moat wont hurt the deck as much, humility will. If humility doesn't hurt the deck as much,moat will. Together however it would be just a hard lock.
I am not actually pushing for the change, but I can see a very good potential in it. We all have to help out in testing it if you want stax to improve.
As for my current list which includes 4 of each moat and humility and without replenish(I really think replenish should stay on the sideboard), I am still contemplating if I should cut down geddon to 3 and maybe add another elspeth or smokestack just like Nihil said to be able to take advantage of the permanent count. Thinking about permanent advantage brings to my mind mobilization. Mobilization works very well with Elspeth (soldier tokens),smokestack and humility. It would bolster our win conditions as well as our defense from swarm aggro. We however have to test Moat and humility first and how it affects the deck overall.
I will however test this against goblins as well as angel stompy to asses both swarm and 1-2 big creature strategy match ups.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
Both, Humility and Moat tend to be 1-card-combos quite often.
So from testing(in the middle of a game atm) affinity is rough. Might be a write off.
Edit: Done testing for the night and to there isn't a lot to say about affinity other than I won when I got moat/humility off basically, but other than that this match struck me as a blowout. I suppose it could probably be different depending on how things go as far as 3spheres, chalices and enchantments go, but for the most part, it is obscenely luck dependent on my side of the table. For affinity, I would probably feel more comfortable with magus/prison/geddon/kegs. A small sacrifice in my opinion so far and one of the few that has made itself apparent, considering how often I see standstills and dreanaughts, versus seat of synods and ravagers. Needless to say, it was humbling, but may have been less so if I had been playing with real cards and not mws, which decided it hated me tonight.
I got a second serving of humble pie against a random chick(I assume), that was playing an enchantress "girl-themed" deck. I know, I know...I shouldn't even be confessing this, but I was utterly destroyed two matches in a row and luck was largely the culprit(poor white turn-outs in draws and poor city/tomb turnouts in others). Either way, it was sort of brutal, but if everything doesn't connect right, I think the moat/humility build might run into more problems against random jank than the magus/prison builds will...that is a feeling so far, but I have been having issues against unconditional jank in other instances too where trinispheres are hit and miss and chalices may or may not hit more than eight cards out of sixty.
It should be noted that tonight; chalices,crucibles, flagstones and factories were veritably pouring forth from my ass while moats and/or humilities were showing up when the other piece might have been better. In most games a smokestack would have been a great card to draw/get on the table, as well as o-ring, but they didn't. I run four O-rings in my build and am short a ravages of war too, so the odds were with me here, peeps =/
Anyway, aside from absolutely shitty luck and a confirmation of my fears about affinity and poor luck(in white stax...who knew?), not a lot was learned about the new tweaks in Dutch/Skegg stax...other than losing to random jank like nobody's business if you are using mws.
Only from looking at the list, it seems that both needing double white and overloading the 4-mana slot could be a problem (there are now 10-11 cards for three mana, but four of them - the Crucibles - don't have any immediate impact on the board for some turns, and another three or four - the Rings - don't do anything towards locking the opponent). Aggro decks with Wasteland and/or Daze could be problematic for those reasons. Maybe combinations other than Humility + Moat could work, depending on the metagame? Like
Humility + Prison: Depends more on Armageddons, synergy between the two
Moat + Bridge: no synergy, both basically do the same except against Goblins
I also think that with Humility, you don't need a full playset of Moats/Prisons, as Elspeth+Humility is just as good as Moat+Humility. Elspeth + Prison should do fine as well if you forget about Dreadnought for a moment.
Moat/Humility seems like a HUGE improvement. The Magus of the Tabernacle is just bad, they made creature removal relevant against you would otherwise be dead cards. I never had any problems against Magus with Goblins, Ghostly Prison was very annoying though but Moat and Humility are both tons better. If Ghostly Prison was down, Goblins could always win with the Siege-Gang Commander and his minions. With Humility this just doesn't work anymore and it allows Factory to dominate the board.
Well, Enchantress was always a tough list for the traditional Stax list too. In fact, I'd figure Humility actually serves a purpose by stopping Argothian Enchantress. Ofcourse, Enchantress would still be a tough MU. Oh, and Enchantress was invented by Zach Tartell, who is very much not a girl :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Affinity is a hard (but doable) MU if you don't draw your Trinispheres, this is also true for the traditional list. If you have some experience playing against Affinity, it shouldn't be a real problem though.
The first option has been tested; there were versions of Armageddon Stax in the past where people tried this, with limited succes. It's not bad, but Prison just doesn't cover it without Armageddon.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
About the second option: I personally don't like Bridge. It needs a near-empty hand to be effective, and you can't attack either. The problem is, that if you can attack, your opponent is likely to have a bigger creature to block with. Or, you can attack with a biggie, but your opponent can also attack with his biggies. And trust me, your opponent more often than not will have bigger and more biggies, you will not win this race.
I understand Moat and Humility are taxing for the manabase, but the reward is pretty big. Not only are they awesome on their own, but together they're incredible. To me, Armageddon Stax must always have either Prison + Magus or Moat + Humility. Other combinations simply lack the synergy.
As noted before, Humility and Moat are often also good on their own. Also note that Elspeth doesn't get protected by Ghostly Prison, so that Nimble Mongoose (or whatever creature is played next to the Tarmogoyf you really want to block with your soldier token) still nibles her ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
The great thing about Magus of the Tabernacle is that he has an ass of 6. He could block almost anything that walked. But the same is accomplished with either Humility or Moat. Plus, the Magus also has an upkeep...hmm, you might be right. The more I think about it, the more Magus of the Tabernacle sucks compared to the alternatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
With Magus of the Tabernacle gone, it might be worthwile to play 2-of Wrath of God again...but that's another :2::w::w: spell, haha...just throwing up a ball here :wink:.
Well, I certainly didn't suggest cutting the 'Geddons :eek: . I basically would just take a "standard" list and replace Magus with Humility. Of course Moat's effect is better than Prison's in every way, it just seems Aggro-Control would get harder to deal with, as dropping your defense on turn three and not on turn two gives them more opportunity to counter/discard that Moat, plus you are more vulnerable to Wastelands and Blood Moons. But there's not enough testing results in anyway, I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
I'm sorry, I wasn't referring to a list without Armageddons, I was pointing out that again this is Armageddon-dependant.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
@ Mordel
The enchantress match up is really bad.Nothing more to it. They run 60 permanents. And if you ever skimmed through their thread, they love the stax match ups, its almost an auto win.
The affinity match however, I really don't think we would fold that easily to them. Its quite tough as they are swarm based and at the same time they can pump single creatures with cranial plating and have them flying over your head. Having blinkmoth nexus also gives you a problem. But its not entirely as unfavorable as you think.
@ Mantis
Yes I actually hated it when Magus got stp'd. Magus is only good against red(because of his big ass).. but even then, Goblins can find a way to kill magus in time.
THis is true that dropping them later in the game might get it countered, or discarded. But aggro control of those types usually don't care about ghostly prison since they only attack with a few creatures. They don't even bother to counter prisons or discard it. They would just play around it. With humility and moat.. they are almost a must discard and a must counter. Being 4 to cast might be a problem. How ever I don't think being 4 to cast outweighs its advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
Sry, I'm probably just really slow atm - please explain what the synergy between "Magus" and "red" (Blood Moon=%STPs%?). Thx.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]