[Deck] Dragon Stompy

What deck would you want Vexing Shusher against? Threshold? It's not a scary matchup by any means, it's almost always correct to play around Daze against them, and if they bring in extra counters it's BEBs which take out Shusher anyway.

UW Landstill? That deck runs eight counters, and they are not what you fear primarily - what you are scared of are the Humilities and Wrath, and possibly postboard CoP: Red (because you have to resolve a Needle and win before they find Explosives; either that, or win with morph). If I were to SB extra cards against Landstill, they would be Anarchy, Demonfire, and Akroma #2.

The other purpose could be to resolve Moon against 4C Landstill, but Trinisphere is almost as good at that job and arguably better (T1 Trini, T2 Moon doesn't lose to StP + FoW like T1 Shusher, T2 Moon, which is also harder to pull off), while also being awesome against combo, Ichorid, and Threshold.

Really, I can only see sideboarding Shusher if MUC is big in your area. Otherwise you're sacrificing the Pyrokinesis/Pyroclasm slots in your SB for very little gain.

I could afford to tripple R as I am only a single color over many colors.

Arc-Slogger and Seething Song have been weak for me, I'm thinking of replacing Sloggers with Countryside Crusher. Same coloured cost with less overall investment and assurance of threats later in the game.

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Originally Posted by mercenarybdu

I could afford to tripple R as I am only a single color over many colors.

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There have been not mono-:r: Dragon Stompy lists? Please elaborate.

Elaborating: He plays awful shit.

Also: see previous discussion -> Old man sucks ass.

And as a side note: Jitte is the only enchantment that does not suck balls. Please don't play anything else.

And fuck all the other god-awful suggestions that keep constantly coming up in this thread - These days I'm sad when I see that someone posted in this thread again.

Seriously; read through the thread.

Deviant: I think Sanguine Voyeur has been in this thread since the beginning :)

Sanguine Voyageur: I don't understand this though, out of 9 games I played yesterday with this deck, Slogger was in my opening hand twice, and I topdecked it three times. Out of my opening hand, one pitched to a Chrome Mox, the other one won me the game of of a Seething Song. The Topdecks actually won me the game every time they hit the table, and that was 2 times, as the third time I didn't need it anymore. Why do you not like Slogger anymore? Could you elaborate?

About Song: I can completely get into that though, my main reason for disliking Seething is that it makes 5 mana, meaning you can either:
1) make a five-drop,
2) a three and a two drop, or
3) tap an additional land/use an SSG to make two 3-drops, and
4) in a rare case tap two lands/Combination of land and SSG, or double seething song to make 7 mana and make a three and four drop.
I rarely see myself Songing into a RPD to play around Daze.

What I am trying to say is that since I play only CotV and Jitte as two drops, situation 2 rarely comes up, situation 3 is possible but situational and situation 4 comes up even less, meaning that the 5 mana you get with Seething Song is just an inconvenient number as most cards combine into 6 or 7, making Seething Song strictly good at powering out a Slogger. And flip the occasional R'Akroma if you play her.

But I have to admit, this has been enough for me to maindeck all four of them, as it is such an amazing and powerful play. Seething Song allows this deck to go insane in the beginning.
Maybe though, the worst part of Seething Song is topdecking it when you have one or two Gathan Raiders unflipped and winning you the game, sometimes I just take 5 to keep winning, but it feels like such a stupid play.

In the past fourteen or so games I've played, Arc-Slogger hasn't come down, and it wouldn't have been worth it. Early Sloggers require additional the Seething Song to be played. A counter or any removal would set me back a turn tempo wise and provide card disadvantage. Later Sloggers may not require the Song, but they just haven't been that game altering.

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Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur

In the past fourteen or so games I've played, Arc-Slogger hasn't come down, and it wouldn't have been worth it. Early Sloggers require additional the Seething Song to be played. A counter or any removal would set me back a turn tempo wise and provide card disadvantage. Later Sloggers may not require the Song, but they just haven't been that game altering.

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This is a stompy deck so you really need to go balls out to win. You can't rely on small creatures to steadily beat down. Slogger is rediculous. Being able to get the opponent down to low life, have him or her stabalize with a wrath or something, and then topdeck Slogger for the win is awesome.

You need that first turn huge threat or lock piece or the deck won't function right.

Sloggers and Songs make this deck seem like a 1st turn kill combo deck.
Along with Chalices and Moons of course, which can be brutal.

If Arc-Slogger ever picks up a Jitte the universe collapses.

Seriously: (even) late sloggers tend to win the game.
And card-advantage goes right out of the window when you pick up this deck. Mulliganing might make the deck do better! (easier to get hellbent, this has been relevant sometimes in a mull to six where an additional card would have meant lost dmg.) We play Chrome Moxes, We flip Raiders, We thrive on hellbent, we play Songs. We want to buke our hand on the table asap and hope it goes the distance. Card advantage means nothing for this deck.

If card advantage doesn't matter, then why don't you run auras? Or Grafted Wargear? Or Avatar of Discord, Balduvian Horde, or Cragganwick Creamator?

They all open you up to two for ones in the same way Arc-Slogger does in the early game.

Because avatar of discord costs RRR.
Cremator and Horde cost 2RR, and suck. We have Pit-Dragon, which easily ends the game in two turns and tend to do it even faster (with evasion) and can actually take down exalted angel, which has been relevant in a few games.

And I only run 2 Jittes, no other enchantments. I should run three of them, but I don't because of personal preference. Wargear on the other hand, just makes the guy big, when Jitte is removal, life gain and it dominates the combat phase.

Playing Wargears is stupid because we run artifacts (and enchantments) that warrant sb'ing in artifact removal (which sometimes is just a nice side-effect of disenchants and such) making their disenchants effectively terrors. That simple.

EDIT: and none of your examples has even remotely the same effect on board position that Slogger has. They are just 5/5 & 5/3 beatsticks. Slogger is ~same size and direct damage.

Those weren't serious suggestions, only examples used to showcase that card disadvantage does matter, even in this deck.

I wouldn't say I agree.

It's the power-level of cards like Arc-Slogger that make the card-disadvantage associated with them negligible.

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Originally Posted by deviant

Sloggers and Songs make this deck seem like a 1st turn kill combo deck.

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What do you think of Lotus Petal + Tarmogoyf ?

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Along with Chalices and Moons of course, which can be brutal.

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These are indeed the reasons the deck wins but there is no particular synergy with Slogger, is there ?

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If Arc-Slogger ever picks up a Jitte the universe collapses.

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A Jitte is certainly better on a Rakdos Pit-Dragon and is easier to stick on cheaper creatures. I hope I don't see your point.

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1. Seriously: (even) late sloggers tend to win the game.

2. And card-advantage goes right out of the window when you pick up this deck. Mulliganing might make the deck do better! (easier to get hellbent, this has been relevant sometimes in a mull to six where an additional card would have meant lost dmg.) We play Chrome Moxes, We flip Raiders, We thrive on hellbent, we play Songs. We want to buke our hand on the table asap and hope it goes the distance. Card advantage means nothing for this deck.

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Doesn't 2. contradicts 1., i.e. you don't want to reach a late game position because without card advantage you're likely stuffed ?

This deck indeed has less late game than suicide black. However, we do not win every game before turn seven. Top decked Sloggers tend to do so even when the opponent has otherwise gained total control of the game.

No other creature in this deck is capable of ending the game on the spot. (Yes yes, MotM often does that 1st turn..)

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Awful in the "oh great, I've spent four mana and my two-turn clock is still a two-turn clock, and just as vulnerable" way. Killing creatures off with Jitte counters was a fairly uncommon occurrence in both testing and tournament; it tends to only happen when I find myself without any of the 13 fatties, which rule the combat phase without need for equipment.

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I've also felt like Jitte under-performs in this deck many times.

Question: Despite the fact that equipment will turn SSG and Magus into real threats, would it not be better to play 4 Maulers + 2 R'Akromas with no MD equipment?

Standard Land
4 Mox
4 SSG
4 Song
4 Chalice
4 Moon
4 Magus
4 Raiders
4 Dragon
4 Slogger
4 Mauler
2 Akroma

Jitte is good against the random crap that you may run in to. Decks that aren't devestated by Moons, Chalices, or Tinispheres.

Equipmentless DS is something that I've played around with a bunch. It really is much better against a meta of Thresh, Landstill, and combo (mostly). However you do suffer serious losses to aggro and burn. I might be able to live with it if I could find room in the board for Jitte, but that's pretty much out of the question (unless I play 8 Moons and 3-4 Trinis main, which is overloading even more against non aggro decks). Also, it does open us up to Wrath like sweepers, since we will often need 2 creatures to really be a threat.

This thread (and a few others) got me to register! I'm really in love with this deck and I'm trying to figure out it's ins and outs currently. I threw together something that contained the necessary bits and now I'm just prodding the more debated options.

Currently I run this:

// Lands
10 [MM] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
3 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
3 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
2 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I'm curious about what more people think about Akroma? So far I've found she's very slow unless I hit the rails perfectly and power her out safely. Even then I feel like she's only dangerous versus a few archetypes.

Also, it seems the overall consensus on maulers/sulfurs is they are dependent on what you will expect in a metagame, yeah? I do not currently own maulers and I'm not really privy to dropping money on something I may not use regularly. Is it just safer to run 3-4 sulfur elementals unless you are positive to run into plenty of thresh/goblins?

I'm thinking about dumping Akroma completely for something like this:

-2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
+1 Rakdos Pit Dragon
+1 Gathan Raiders (Sulfur Elemental? Opinions?)

I'm not terribly experienced with this deck yet, so my own opinions are kind of a show to that fact. :tongue:

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I do not currently own maulers and I'm not really privy to dropping money on something I may not use regularly.

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There's a few places online selling them for $3 each still, which is a lot more bearable than the big retailers. Just pointing that out if you assumed it was $20 for a playset, everywhere. You only need two of them for the deck (the way average lists are going) and it's an interesting multiplayer card.

My opinion is that if you choose to run Maulers, make them four-off. You want to drop them early, or they're mox-fodder etc.
I also prefer Sulfurs still. Will probably give Maulers a swing in the next tournament, if it's not important, but I'm still not recommending them.

Also; Red Akroma sucks balls more often than not - this deck is inconsistent as fuck and you should not try to make it more so.
If you have a metagame consisting of mostly UW-landstill and everyone maindecking seven FoW's, you can consider her. I have such a metagame, and I do not play her anymore. Sulfur beats face well enough.

Gathan Raiders is a 4-off.
And so should be RPD, though you can make do with, say 3 RPD and 2 Sloggers, but you should have reaaally good reason to force your curve lower if you choose to do so. (I can't think of any reasons that would justify doing so, but I've seen such lists do well so I mention.)

And I would recommend running 23-24 threats. It makes the deck run smoother. The less creatures you run, the more often you have to imprint something relevant to drop 1st turn moon f.e. and then you're left with no pressure.

So I would recommend: -2 Akroma, +1 RPD, +1 Raiders. And if you have more controllish metagame, you can consider -1 Jitte +1 Sulfur. But then you should find room for the third jitte in your sb.
(that would, btw, end in the exact list I'm running..)

Thanks a ton for the feedback! I'll fiddle around with that information and just keep practicing.

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Originally Posted by Droxis

I'm thinking about dumping Akroma completely for something like this:

-2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
+1 Rakdos Pit Dragon
+1 Gathan Raiders

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Do that. The only flexible creature slots in the deck are 2-4 Taurean Mauler/Sulfur Elemental/Akroma, Angel of Fury, and 1 Arc-Slogger. Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit Dragon are too amazing to cut for any of the aforementioned creatures. If you could tell us what your meta is like, I'll see if I can help you pick creatures for your flexible slots.

I'm liking Akroma less and less by the day. She's only worth it if your meta contains large amounts of Landstill, MUC, MWC, and Threshold. Akroma isn't even the best choice vs Threshold -- it's Taurean Mauler.

I'm not too enamored with Jitte either, but maybe that's because my meta is mostly Threshold and combo with only a few aggro decks relevant enough that I need Jitte. I currently run 2 in the main deck and 1 in the side, and it's worked well.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Do that. The only flexible creature slots in the deck are 2-4 Taurean Mauler/Sulfur Elemental/Akroma, Angel of Fury, and 1 Arc-Slogger. Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit Dragon are too amazing to cut for any of the aforementioned creatures. If you could tell us what your meta is like, I'll see if I can help you pick creatures for your flexible slots.

I'm liking Akroma less and less by the day. She's only worth it if your meta contains large amounts of Landstill, MUC, MWC, and Threshold. Akroma isn't even the best choice vs Threshold -- it's Taurean Mauler.

I'm not too enamored with Jitte either, but maybe that's because my meta is mostly Threshold and combo with only a few aggro decks relevant enough that I need Jitte. I currently run 2 in the main deck and 1 in the side, and it's worked well.

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Agreed.
Red Akroma is just no good in this deck.
I like Taurean Mauler, I been running 3 of. It is amazing early but an awful topdeck late in games. It is basically a vanilla 3cost for 2/2 at that pt.

I should try sulfur elemental and see how that flys.

I think my take on Jitte is a little warped because they guys I play with don't ever play Burn...but I think the point about the SB being too tight to fit them in there is a good enough reason to keep at least 2 Jitte MD.

This might sound just a tad retarded, but what about squee as a 2-of? It's a recurring creature that isn't horrible with an equipment, say sword of Fire and Ice. I understand it's crap without equipment, but even as a blocker on a goyf, mongoose or Factory. Thought I'd throw it out there.

Alternatively, Grinning Ignus allows you to go Seething Song, pay R for it's ability, giving you 2RRRRR to flip an akroma if you wanted to leave her in...being a 2/2 it's uses are rather limited...but it also allows the mana for a blood moon...I dunno, I'm brainstorming.

Pce,

--DC

The problem with Squee is this deck wants to block perhaps once every twenty games, and as an attacker he's decidedly underwhelming. If I really wanted a recurring creature against control, I'd take a look at Molten Firebird or Shard Phoenix, which can fly over Mishra's Factory all day long, or I'd just run Demonfire again.

I tested Ignus over Seething Song last summer; I dropped it because a Time Walk really hurt when I wanted to cast Seething Song (Turn 2 Slogger <<<< Turn 1 Slogger). Another significant issue was that it didn't filter colourless mana, meaning it didn't help to cast Slogger or Dragon off a single Red mana.

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

This might sound just a tad retarded, but what about squee as a 2-of? It's a recurring creature that isn't horrible with an equipment, say sword of Fire and Ice. I understand it's crap without equipment, but even as a blocker on a goyf, mongoose or Factory. Thought I'd throw it out there.

Alternatively, Grinning Ignus allows you to go Seething Song, pay R for it's ability, giving you 2RRRRR to flip an akroma if you wanted to leave her in...being a 2/2 it's uses are rather limited...but it also allows the mana for a blood moon...I dunno, I'm brainstorming.

Pce,

--DC

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These 2 creatures take away what makes Dragon Stompy win - explosiveness! Since you advice on putting equipment on Squee and maybe the other guy I assume you would could either cut e.g. Chalice (dont!) from the deck or Sloggers/Raiders which are just way too good to drop for a 1/1 that only becomes effective afrter a few turns.
I know its hard to accept that in most games Dragon Stompy loses in the long run. But what Squee gives you in the long run (and Nihil already mentioned "better" recurable creatures) is by no means worth the loss he provides in the first turns of a match. Whats more impressive, 1st turn Squee or Slogger? I know, Landstill might have a Force but the possibility of this should not discourage us from still going for broken moves! A little more "Red Spirit" please! :D

I just put Sundering Titan in my SB in place of other cards to see what happens when I do bring them into a game 2 or 3 in a match.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

These 2 creatures take away what makes Dragon Stompy win - explosiveness! Since you advice on putting equipment on Squee and maybe the other guy I assume you would could either cut e.g. Chalice (dont!) from the deck or Sloggers/Raiders which are just way too good to drop for a 1/1 that only becomes effective afrter a few turns.
I know its hard to accept that in most games Dragon Stompy loses in the long run. But what Squee gives you in the long run (and Nihil already mentioned "better" recurable creatures) is by no means worth the loss he provides in the first turns of a match. Whats more impressive, 1st turn Squee or Slogger? I know, Landstill might have a Force but the possibility of this should not discourage us from still going for broken moves! A little more "Red Spirit" please! :D

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I disagree, I think it's a good opening 7 that lets DS win. Creatures don't take away from the explosiveness of the build, crappy draws do. I see what you are saying, and a turn 1 Slogger is the goal for aggressiveness, but you have to think about the overall health and playability of the deck. You have to have a 2-mana land, a SSG/Mox+red card, Seething Song and Slogger in your opening hand for that. That's 4 cards minimum. What happens when they counter the Slogger, and you imprinted your only other creature? It's even worse if you had to use a SSG and your 2-mana land was a City. Now you are really fucked. While I'm not defending the cards I offered as sick additions, I am saying that they may add a tad bit of consistancy. Going into a Squee first turn on the draw allows for consistant blocking against anything without trample until you can draw into something more efficient. Ignus allows you to go Mountain, SSG, SSG, Ignus, and then be ok with either a blocker, a swinger, or a mana source for that Magus of the Moon/Seething Song into a Slogger with just a Mountain out. Don't argue removal, as that's the same with your "god hand" of a first-turn Slogger. Also, you won't always want to go the threat-fast way. Chalice at one is often times the better play, or better yet, 3sphere. Then a turn-2 Slogger, and they can't force it.

BTW, this deck doesn't need more red spirit...It's got aplenty.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by mercenarybdu

I just put Sundering Titan in my SB in place of other cards to see what happens when I do bring them into a game 2 or 3 in a match.

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That seems... weird. Sundering Titan + Blood Moon = 8 mana 7/10 Avalanche Riders. Speaking of which, wouldn't Avalanche Riders be better LD? (Not that I can figure out where you'd want to bring them in and what to take out for them either. I certainly am not going to cut Pithing Needles for them against control.)

It can take out basic lands in conjunction with Moon effects for a complete and total screw-over...for 8 mana. Seems win-more. You can power it out turn 6 with a single Song...I wouldn't do this. This is a crap draw in like 98% of scenarios you could possibly run into. Barring them 'Pating both of your Moon effects and you hitting critical mass with lands/SSGs/Moxen/Songs with them tapped out and you have a 3sphere out, this will be useless.

I don't think this deck needs land destruction. If it did, wouldn't Boil be better? I realize it's not a creature, but the only thing moon effects really don't rape is Solidarity...and this has been discussed pretty heavily within the last few pages, the outcome of which says you have a decent matchup already against them.

IDK, I think it's lousy.

Pce,

--DC

Sundering Titan doesn't seem like it would fit at all. It's an eight mana creature in a deck that strives for hellbent. The mana attacking aspect would only be especially good against a deck with three or more colours, and Blood Moon is already better against those.

Honestly, if you wanted to play LD in this deck the LD should have legs, but since all of the LD on legs are mediocre creatures, you would want to up the equipment count to make them viable threats. Then you would want to MD trinisphere again (though I still do) to take advantage of it...

Probably the best LD on legs is Avalanche Riders, or for mass LD Orcish Settlers. But of course you have to ask yourself if you really want to play a deck with those cards in Legacy.

It would be BETTER with Welder, but then so would Juggernaut, Razorcore, and a slew of others, getting way deeper into 5/3.dec than DragonStompy wants to go.

Are you in a Landstill-heavy environment or something? I guess probably not, as akroma would be the card to run...what are you even trying to tech against? I wanna know, I can't figure it out...

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Originally Posted by Zork

Probably the best LD on legs is Avalanche Riders, or for mass LD Orcish Settlers. But of course you have to ask yourself if you really want to play a deck with those cards in Legacy.

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Fulminator Mage also works, but doesn't fit your curve well. The best LD on legs right now is probably Magus of the Moon. It can proactively deal with lands and, as long it doesn't die, reduce your opponent to 1-2 viable lands. The only purpose of LD after that would be to snipe basics.

Other than that you have Dwarven Driller (2/2 for 3:r: with Tap: Destroy target land unless the controller takes 2), which is repeatable, but seems needlessly excessive and on the slow side, and a large pile of one shot 3/3 for 5's that destroy a land as a comes into play effect. I wouldn't mind testing driller out, but I doubt it will prove to be particularly useful.

So is it pretty standard to cut the trinishpere's from the main? The list i've been playing with has 3 in the main.

Also, i've been underimpressed with the jittes. It seems like it takes too long for it to become a threat carrier all by itself. It seems like every time i get a jitte going, I either have enough creatures that i already have an advantage, or i can't get any creature to stick with it, forshadowing my demise.
Jitte seems like it's GREAT when it good, and seems like SoFI would be the same in most matchups in which its either or. I realize jitte owns the combat phase, but in the current overall legacy meta, there's not that much aggro other than goblins and the occasional SUI deck (lots of threshold, landstill, and dreadnoughts).
Also, when it comes to alternate equipment, is Sword of Fire and Ice really better than Sword of Light and Shadow? I realize that Fire and Ice is a faster clock, but isnt the card draw effect kinda of counteractive when Pit Dragon and Gathan Raiders? Sword of Light and Shadow give your guys protection from Swords to Plowshares, which i can't stress enough on how important that particular feature is to a creature in this format.

Opinions?

Jitte does takre time to work and cannot be played in multiples, both of which are annoying.

However, I would still vote for SoFI because it is so much faster than SoLS. More often than not the card draw benefits you. Except for getting 2 lands in a single turn, dumping that extra card is rarely a problem.

I would recommend using both SoFI and SoLS if you cut Trini (4 of SoFI and 3 of SoLS).

Cutting trinispheres for useless cards is not a good idea.
(with 7!!! equpments (do you also run jittes?), how many moons, chalices and threats do you run? You sure you didn't mean to post that on the faerie stompy thread? They actually need equipment since their creatures are fucking fairies and sprites, we run dragons and shit. Rawr!)

Also, if you have a lot of ***** and storm in your meta, cutting trinispheres is a bad idea in itself.

We cut trinispheres for additional threats, more precisely - red threats. This makes the deck run smoother since you rarely have to ditch the only threat in your hand to the mox you need for the broken opening. You can also keep the flow of threats more consistent which is important against control f.e.

I personally prefer 24 threats, and If adding this to 26 wouldn't mean cutting either accelerants (can't do that), disruption (never - moons and chalices are too important) or Jittes I would do it right away.
I cannot, however, force myself to take out my 2 remaining equipments - they are too good against the random tier 6 crap we lose to otherwise. (Yes, you will get paired against crap every now and then) And they often make the difference in stalls, help you race almost anything and all other amazing shit that thing is capable of.

Also: you run 8 moon effects and chalices - what other mana denial you want?

The problem with Trinisphere comes from the fact that DS lacks any true mana denial. although Moon effects make lands produce a relatively useless color of mana, they still can produce mana itself. It MAY be able to slow an opponent down, but equipment gives results. I prefer the consistent thing.

On a random note:

Rakdos Pit Dragon gets stupid with SoLs, but is fairly useless with SoFI as it loses doublestrike after it deals first strike damage.