[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Most of the time its Warrens Weirding in multiples that gives me trouble and i dont want to talk about Krosan Grip..
Asume that they have put down a Lackey and then Fetch on turn 2, is it good to Stifle here or to keep the Stifle and try to get Nought asap?
Regarding Wasteland, i do like you said if i dont plan to play Standstill, where i try to keep them for there Wastelands to hit with Mishras.

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That depends what you have in hand. If you have counterbackup, i would drop nought. Then opponent have 2 turns left to answer your nought or die away. If you stifle fetch and then don't have another stifle in hand you give opponent time to find some answers or/and new threats.

And that wasteland still, i try to avoid dropping that if it's possible. Opponent has many time fetch taiga or plateau (he plays rgw-goblins) because i don't have wasteland in play. Sometimes i have won game by manascrewing opponent when he fetch first taiga, then drop lackey or vial and i daze it. Then i play wasteland and destroy his only land. They sometimes trust that vial / lackey too much so they can start with only one land.

Have anyone played recently against Merfolks? Just thinking what kinda matchup that is because vials, standstills and mutavaults from opponent. Countertop is good there and EE will shine too, right? How about our side? Do we side out all standstills for REBs/Echoing truths(resolved LoA is going to be problem if not solved quick)? Any comments are welcome :)

I have played against merfolk lists that aren't quite the normal build. Counter/Top is OK, EE sort of sucks since their cc's are different and it is a bit slow.

Again your MVP's here would be Pyroclasm or Firespout but you don't want to play them.

Personally I would take out all my Standstills and if necessary an EE or 2 to put in: REB, Pyroclasm/Firespout, and PITHING NEEDLE because vial will own you.

Yeah like most tribal decks, merfolk can give Dreadstill a run for its money. -Standstills +Rebs, Firespouts/Echoing truth tends to be the strategy against them.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

I have played against merfolk lists that aren't quite the normal build. Counter/Top is OK, EE sort of sucks since their cc's are different and it is a bit slow.

Again your MVP's here would be Pyroclasm or Firespout but you don't want to play them.

Personally I would take out all my Standstills and if necessary an EE or 2 to put in: REB, Pyroclasm/Firespout, and PITHING NEEDLE because vial will own you.

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Yep, i just forget that needle. That's obvious. How your games went against that list? Did it play mutavaults and wastelands or just either one?

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Originally Posted by Atog

Yep, i just forget that needle. That's obvious. How your games went against that list? Did it play mutavaults and wastelands or just either one?

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They had mutavaults and my results don't help you, Pyroclasm and Firespout DESTROYED them. The game I didn't draw one I lost.

Merfolk is a very very tough matchup even with removal/REBs postboard. Try to get lucky if you can G1 and G2-G3 it's probally about a 50/50 matchup. I'd say it's the toughest out of the tribal decks for Dreadstill.

Well they have not much out for an early Nought, have they?
At least thats the way I win games against this deck.

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Originally Posted by FredMaster

Well they have not much out for an early Nought, have they?
At least thats the way I win games against this deck.

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Yeah, i have played 3 matches against Merfolk and I have never dropped a game. Run Spell Snare. As long as you can control Lord of Atlantis and Aether Vial, they don't really get ahead. Goyf is better then weenies and Factory is better than Mutavault. If they are running a splash, thats just gravy because that means you can Stifle their fetches and Waste their duals. Nought is a beating.

This is my Dreadstill: (list of standard Rodney Hannigan ... I think the best ... the Ur version allows us a first perfect game by Mono U .. 2 game in our strategy is implemented by cards MU improve our worst:

creatures

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Mage trinket

instant

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

enchantment

3 counterbalance
4 Standstill

artifact

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

land

3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland


Sideboard:

3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Magus of the Moon

The side as I said earlier adverse MU improves some of this deck ... I Think the real problem with the exit of Pyroclasm is the worsening of MU to Goblin ... there are BEB and EE but could nn enough ... some criticism or suggestions?

@Rodney Before my last tourney I switched out my Firespouts for Magus of the Moon, and in he first round I faced Merfolk. I got slaughtered. If you expect to face a lot of aggro I would think that Firespout would go in the MotM slot.

I have question about facing TES and ANT, as I expect to see a lot of it at the Winter Wonderland tourney. What do people board them against it, and how do you play against them?

What build are you going to be playing? I'll give you a sideboarding strategy and play by play for both.

I play the standard Ur list, with MotM in the board to deal with all the 3c Threshold.

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

@Rodney Before my last tourney I switched out my Firespouts for Magus of the Moon, and in he first round I faced Merfolk. I got slaughtered. If you expect to face a lot of aggro I would think that Firespout would go in the MotM slot.

I have question about facing TES and ANT, as I expect to see a lot of it at the Winter Wonderland tourney. What do people board them against it, and how do you play against them?

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Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze

+3 BEB
is normally how I go against them now. E-truth used to be good against them and still can be, but they rely on ETW alot less now.

ANT you normally want to bring in REBs instead of BEBs but the sideboarding strategy still remains the same for the most part.

The best way to beat these decks is just beat them down with Factories...don't really rely on too much else just control them and get in there with Factories. We run so much disruption that most of the time they can't really handle it.

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze

+3 BEB
is normally how I go against them now. E-truth used to be good against them and still can be, but they rely on ETW alot less now.

ANT you normally want to bring in REBs instead of BEBs but the sideboarding strategy still remains the same for the most part.

The best way to beat these decks is just beat them down with Factories...don't really rely on too much else just control them and get in there with Factories. We run so much disruption that most of the time they can't really handle it.

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Against TES we should safe counters for.. Ad Nauseam, Burning wish and Infernal Tutor, Orim's chant? Those take quite much resource at least if we won't get fast countertop online.

And against ANT i guess Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor and Mystical tutor? How about first turn LED? That enables to operate with IGG what we wont't want or should we just safe counters for that IGG?

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Originally Posted by Atog

Against TES we should safe counters for.. Ad Nauseam, Burning wish and Infernal Tutor, Orim's chant? Those take quite much resource at least if we won't get fast countertop online.

And against ANT i guess Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor and Mystical tutor? How about first turn LED? That enables to operate with IGG what we wont't want or should we just safe counters for that IGG?

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Your goal in this matchup is to drop a Counterbalance. They can barely win after you've dropped one. Aside from that, Standstill is a very strong turn 2 drop as well. Always counter the Chant, even if you don't have any other counters, because this will cut him off IGG.

Don't counter LED, except with Counterbalance (and be careful here if you have a top, keep mana open for other spells). Counter Infernal Tutor if the hand is empty. Counter Burning Wish if the TES player has 4 mana open and you don't have an answer to EtW. If his had is empty while playing Wish, counter it anyway. Always counter AdN of course. Mystical Tutor shouldn't be countered in my opinion, but it might actually be good sometimes, if you somehow manage to be certain he will be looking for his buisness spell.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Your goal in this matchup is to drop a Counterbalance. They can barely win after you've dropped one. Aside from that, Standstill is a very strong turn 2 drop as well. Always counter the Chant, even if you don't have any other counters, because this will cut him off IGG.

Don't counter LED, except with Counterbalance (and be careful here if you have a top, keep mana open for other spells). Counter Infernal Tutor if the hand is empty. Counter Burning Wish if the TES player has 4 mana open and you don't have an answer to EtW. If his had is empty while playing Wish, counter it anyway. Always counter AdN of course. Mystical Tutor shouldn't be countered in my opinion, but it might actually be good sometimes, if you somehow manage to be certain he will be looking for his buisness spell.

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Thank you for good coverage and advices :) Just thinking that burning wish if i have Dreadnought in play, they can get shattering spree or something else answer. I haven't play more than five games against those decks so just trying to figure by decklists what is must-counter.

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Originally Posted by Atog

Thank you for good coverage and advices :) Just thinking that burning wish if i have Dreadnought in play, they can get shattering spree or something else answer. I haven't play more than five games against those decks so just trying to figure by decklists what is must-counter.

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That's true, but I still don't think it would be worth the counter then. If they are forced to waste buisness spells on your clock, you're in a good position anyway.

You can counter if your Dreadnought kills him next turn of course.

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze

+3 BEB
is normally how I go against them now. E-truth used to be good against them and still can be, but they rely on ETW alot less now.

ANT you normally want to bring in REBs instead of BEBs but the sideboarding strategy still remains the same for the most part.

The best way to beat these decks is just beat them down with Factories...don't really rely on too much else just control them and get in there with Factories. We run so much disruption that most of the time they can't really handle it.

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Against ANT you would bring in REB's to counter their cantrips?

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

Against ANT you would bring in REB's to counter their cantrips?

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Yes exactly, stopping them from setting up is key against them since for the most part if you let them sculpt a god hand without CB/T They will just bust in your eyes even if you have 2-3 counters, so simply don't let them get the resources, also I have a slight disagreement with Rodney's Sideboarding plan:
Against TES:
-2 Trinket Mage
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Pithing Needle (For Vexing Shusher)

Against ANT
-1 Trinket Mage
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+3 Red Elemental Blast

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze
+3 BEB

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Am I the only one who boards out 1 basic Island against combo and other shaz that doesn't disrupt your manabase at all?

Rood, as much as I respect your overall Dreadstill skills, I gotta say your boarding approach against TES is flawed.
You don't want to board out counters against super-fast combo and boarding out 2 of the spells that read "counter one relevant spell and I'll race him for sure" doesn't seem wise either.
Your approach is more suitable against FT, since you'll need your Stifles for their fetchlands (TES doesn't run any obviously) - the speed that you gain that way and the fact that FT needs more land to go off let's you get there via Factories, which imo are much worse against TES as our primary killcon.

My suggestion (UR DS VS. TES):
+3 BEB
-1 Island
-1 Standstill (you never want to drop it turn 2)
-1 Dreadnought (if you're running 4)/ -1 Trickbind (if you're running 3)

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Originally Posted by klaus

...
My suggestion (UR DS VS. TES):
+3 BEB
-1 Island
-1 Standstill (you never want to drop it turn 2)
-1 Dreadnought (if you're running 4)/ -1 Trickbind (if you're running 3)

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Why you don't want to drop it turn 2? Because you want play nought or counterbalance on turn to or what..? And don't you think that trinket mage is too slow against TES? Like you said it's "super fast combo".

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Originally Posted by klaus

Am I the only one who boards out 1 basic Island against combo and other shaz that doesn't disrupt your manabase at all?

Rood, as much as I respect your overall Dreadstill skills, I gotta say your boarding approach against TES is flawed.
You don't want to board out counters against super-fast combo and boarding out 2 of the spells that read "counter one relevant spell and I'll race him for sure" doesn't seem wise either.
Your approach is more suitable against FT, since you'll need your Stifles for their fetchlands (TES doesn't run any obviously) - the speed that you gain that way and the fact that FT needs more land to go off let's you get there via Factories, which imo are much worse against TES as our primary killcon.

My suggestion (UR DS VS. TES):
+3 BEB
-1 Island
-1 Standstill (you never want to drop it turn 2)
-1 Dreadnought (if you're running 4)/ -1 Trickbind (if you're running 3)

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Boarding out an Island is something I would never do, risking the chance of not drawing enough land and losing against TES is something I would never take the chance of doing. Standstill is still good against them, if anything it buys you time to sculp a god hand full of answers to stop them...I can't see boarding these out either. I think you don't want anymore then 2 Dreadnoughts against him, normally you're not willing to burn a Stifle on him because even if you could drop him I'd feel better beating with Factory and keeping the Stifle when they try to combo. There are situation where this changes, but most of the time I like to keep my Stifles/Trickbinds. I agree my approach probally wasn't optimal I think that

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Trinket Mage
+3 BEB
seems a bit better

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Boarding out an Island is something I would never do, risking the chance of not drawing enough land and losing against TES is something I would never take the chance of doing. Standstill is still good against them, if anything it buys you time to sculp a god hand full of answers to stop them...I can't see boarding these out either. I think you don't want anymore then 2 Dreadnoughts against him, normally you're not willing to burn a Stifle on him because even if you could drop him I'd feel better beating with Factory and keeping the Stifle when they try to combo. There are situation where this changes, but most of the time I like to keep my Stifles/Trickbinds. I agree my approach probally wasn't optimal I think that

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Trinket Mage
+3 BEB
seems a bit better

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Saving Stifle against both TES and ANT is far from as good as you might think. As both TES and ANT have the option of going for Ad Nauseam, the Stifle you keep will not be usefull at all in stopping the AdN. If the AdN resolves, the combo player should always cast more protection before trying the Tendrils. Especially ANT is very good at that.

Dropping a turn 2 Dreadnought might seem risky, but, again especially against ANT, both your Spell Snare and Stifle aren't that good at all. I think it will be worth it to play a turn 2 Dreadnought most of the time on the play. Chopping 12 life away makes their AdN much much worse.

In UGR or UGWr build, I take off Goyfs for 3x REB's to counter mysticals.

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Boarding out an Island is something I would never do, risking the chance of not drawing enough land and losing against TES is something I would never take the chance of doing. Standstill is still good against them, if anything it buys you time to sculp a god hand full of answers to stop them...I can't see boarding these out either. I think you don't want anymore then 2 Dreadnoughts against him, normally you're not willing to burn a Stifle on him because even if you could drop him I'd feel better beating with Factory and keeping the Stifle when they try to combo. There are situation where this changes, but most of the time I like to keep my Stifles/Trickbinds. I agree my approach probally wasn't optimal I think that
seems a bit better

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Seconding Bahamuth:
Stifle/Trickbind are really bad against no-fetchlands-combo.dec. (beyond supporting Dreadnought)

Again, the problem with Factory as your killcon is that it requires you to tap 2 lands for each attack and usually I want at least 2 lands for CB actions plus one land for Spell Snare, BS and what not.

My general strategy against fast combo, and I've made exclusively positive experiences with it, is:
- keep a and with FOW or Daze (mull to 5 if neccessary)
- counter relevant stuff
- assemble CB+Top (which is why T. Mage is still OK.)
- beat down with whatever
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1-2 REB's are an option if you see some Ponders G1 (Brainstorm, Mystical are always worthy targets), Pact of Negation has also to be accounted for, and progressive ANT lists have adopted Spell Snares (emidln style)
Just thinking.
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@Atog:
CB is the only spell I'd be willing to tap for on turn 2, unless your opponent has mulled to 4 :eyebrow: .

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Originally Posted by Enigma

In UGR or UGWr build, I take off Goyfs for 3x REB's to counter mysticals.

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Siding out Dreadnoughts seems significantly better so you can use your Stifles on Fetches/Storm. Also don't you run swords? If so they should be coming out.

I don't understand why you just don't board out 3 Trinket Mage. What's it going to do? Find Explosives? Certainly not against ANT, and TES will only attempt an EtW turn 1 or maybe 2, in which case the Mage is too slow.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I don't understand why you just don't board out 3 Trinket Mage. What's it going to do? Find Explosives? Certainly not against ANT, and TES will only attempt an EtW turn 1 or maybe 2, in which case the Mage is too slow.

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It can be pitched to FoW just when you don't need it. And you don't want to leave all four noughts in against deck you can use your stifles / trickbinds agaist then efficiently than usual. Also nought is a dead card in hand if you spend your stifles and trickbinds to tendrils or EtW. You know that too :)

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Originally Posted by Atog

It can be pitched to FoW just when you don't need it. And you don't want to leave all four noughts in against deck you can use your stifles / trickbinds agaist then efficiently than usual. Also nought is a dead card in hand if you spend your stifles and trickbinds to tendrils or EtW. You know that too :)

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If you manage to spend your Stifles on Tendrils or EtW, you already won, in which case it doesn't matter if you have a dead card in hand. I can see why you don't want to leave 4 Dreadnought in, but I'd not board out more than one then.

Pitching to FoW is hardly an argument, since your entire deck does that. Leaving in cards just because they pitch to FoW is never a good idea. Also, you will barely ever need them, and when you do, chances are he's too slow.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Pitching to FoW is hardly an argument, since your entire deck does that. Leaving in cards just because they pitch to FoW is never a good idea. Also, you will barely ever need them, and when you do, chances are he's too slow.

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I have to completely disagree since every other blue card in your deck is good against storm and being able to save them is a big deal, Also something that your not giving him credit for is that he grabs top in this matchup. If you land CB/T you are going to win like 90% of the time.

The biggest problem I have with combo is chant. I believe the only counter in the deck that can handle it is FoW. So, unless you have a Counterbalance out all they have to do is Duress the FoW or play multiple chants.

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Siding out Dreadnoughts seems significantly better so you can use your Stifles on Fetches/Storm. Also don't you run swords? If so they should be coming out.

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The swords are now in SB. They've replaced by Spell snares.

About the Dreadnought: I find he's good against ANT because he puts pressure on them to combo quickly and not necessarily have all their disrupts cards.

Alright so I played Dreadstill at the WW event. I played a basic list with a tiny change in the sb due to not having Echoing Truth (lol..). So I ended up going 4-3 fail.. I went 4-1 losing to Lam and his Canadian Thresh deck. And the going 0-2 to Di's Elf Survival and some guys GBW Survival. Although the Elf Survival was close. Anyone got a strategy vs. them I had never played against a survival deck before.. And also Trinket Mage is the MVP in this deck by far.

So I also played Dreadstill at the Winter Wonderland to a disappointing 4-3 finish after starting out 3-0. My first hand of the tournament had the turn 2 Naught with Force backup. However, it was all downhill from there, as I only saw one more hand involving a turn 2 Naught. I beat Goblins, UGb Thresh, Tendrils and RG Beats, losing to the Tendrils list that T8ed, the 4c Counterbalance deck and Counterslivers. I don't think the Ur list has enough removal, and Naught felt fragile as hell for most of the day.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

So I also played Dreadstill at the Winter Wonderland to a disappointing 4-3 finish after starting out 3-0. My first hand of the tournament had the turn 2 Naught with Force backup. However, it was all downhill from there, as I only saw one more hand involving a turn 2 Naught. I beat Goblins, UGb Thresh, Tendrils and RG Beats, losing to the Tendrils list that T8ed, the 4c Counterbalance deck and Counterslivers. I don't think the Ur list has enough removal, and Naught felt fragile as hell for most of the day.

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What color would you suggest for removal, would you go white or black?

White because STP and enlightened tutor are superior cards to other color

E.Tutor is a very interesting addition because it helps the deck getting the missing CB/top combo card. It can also fetch landstill, dreadnought and/or any other artifact enchant from the deck

Robert

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Originally Posted by Irish_Mafia

What color would you suggest for removal, would you go white or black?

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I have no idea. I don't think I'm going to be playing the deck seriously for the next while, but I'd have to think that Swords is going to be your best option.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

I have no idea. I don't think I'm going to be playing the deck seriously for the next while, but I'd have to think that Swords is going to be your best option.

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Yeah. I don't know what I'm gonna do haha. I love this deck and all but idk yet.

I personally love enlightened tutor in this deck for several reasons. First of all, as mentioned before, it can grab either piece of the countertop combo. It can also grab dreadnought turn one at EoT so that you can play a turn 2 nought. Finally, it lets you run a toolbox either sideboard or mainboard (or both). Some things it can grab that trinket mage can't that I like are crucible, serenity, oblivion ring and lightning greaves. It also grabs E. Explosives turn 1 in case of an early Empty the Warrens. I just think that trinket mage is too slow. I know E. tutor gives you card disadvantage, but I think it is still worth it.