Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
That's an interesting thing to keep track of. SE Fit (not trying to beat a dead horse here, so bear with me) should average the highest number of cards seen per game (due to 4 Tops and the huge library manipulation/CA suite in general), especially if we manage to stick a KotR in there (Top, tap Knight and get a fetchland, Top, crack fetch, Top, maybe find GSZ).
Played a few more games, tried out Jund Fit but my opponent was on Eldrazi. We were doing a best of 7 but it ended in my defeat after 4 games. I only managed to pull ahead in one game on the back of a double Therapy hand with a vet, while my opponent was stuck on Eye+Wasteland as his only lands. I still lost that game. Seems pretty much unwinnable. But that's just one deck, I'm not giving up on it yet.
Since the Jund vs Eldrazi match was over so quickly there was time for some SE Fit vs Delver games. Won like usual but the games were more about tracking cards. Games I won went long and averaged around 22 cards seen/20 drawn for me and 9 seen/18 drawn for Delver ending on turn 11. Games Delver won were about half that. That includes the initial 7 drawn and 1 per turn under the drawn category, but seen is just extra cards looked at and not grabbed. The main difference was that Delver was usually able to see more cards at once, while it was much more incremental for Nic Fit, so over time it pulled ahead pretty easily (especially since all those extra cards seen lead to on board 2 for 1's which generated a lot of the actual CA) but if looking for something in a short span of time Delver was still favored. In hands with Top, I was always ahead in the cards seen category by a pretty healthy number, in hands without Top I didn't really catch up until turn 5. But, I was usually able to pull ahead in actual cards by turn 3-4.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
(Top, tap Knight and get a fetchland, Top, crack fetch, Top, maybe find GSZ).
Reminds me playing against miracles [emoji2]
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
http://i.imgur.com/5WPvvTK.jpg
The hardlock is real; his T1 Duress was long and in that time, looking at the hand containing TS, Teeg and S.S. (aka Safekeeper), the opponent conveyed a clear sense of surprise followed only by his quick demise.
For me the real question is if S.S. is a SB card only. At the moment my answer is yes, but I'll keep testing with him in the main to form the definitive opinion.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I moved more toward Scapeshift Fit. I was testing the Italian Punishing version, but found it too inconsistent in the mana base.
I switched the mana base to ArianRhod's version from three years ago, and it has been fantastic.
The list focuses more on the combo than the beatdown, though that is a real alternative, especially if Tireless Tracker goes unchecked.
Anyway here's my updated list, it has been working quite well. I'm still trying to sculpt the sideboard better, I'm not sure if Pyroclasm and Massacre are necessary. Slaughter Games is great for neutering most mid range and control decks, but maybe three copies is too many (six virtual copies games 2 and 3).
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Scapeshift
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Went 4-2 for 11th place (out of 63) at GP Toronto side event yesterday. Moral of the story: you win some, you lose some.....
//Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
//Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Anguished Unmaking
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
//Creatures
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer
//Sideboard
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Slaughter Games
1 Ruination
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vindicate
1 Pithing Needle
R1 Chris on Punishing Jund: Win 2-0
R2 Colin on Miracles: Win 2-0!!!!!
You win some, you lose some. He mulled G1 and fast Rhinos got there before he could stabilise. G2 Slaughter Games took his 3 Jaces and an Ooze and a Rhino did their job.
R3 Julian on Merfolk: Win 2-0
Caught a blind FoW with Therapy in G1, then removed a Lord, then Rhino beats after Deed took his board. Similar story in G2
So, I'm 3-0 (6-0 in games) at this point.
R4 Aaron on Miracles: Lose 0-2
You win some, you lose some. Deck and sideboard decided to be ordinary for this match. If I don't get early pressure and/or find Slaughter Games/Surgical/Sorin/Garruk then they are safe. T1 Needle on Top slowed him down but my Sylvan Library was serving rubbish. So I had to take 8 life to dig deeper and found... nothing. Angels came the turn after and my Deed was FoW'ed.
R5 Ryan on Sneak and Show: Win 2-0
You win some, you lose some. Even after BS'ing and Pondering and Preordaining, he missed land drops early in G1. So I named Petal with a blind Therapy and, as it turned out, that won the game. It set him back by a couple of turns, enough so that I was able to find another Therapy (before sacc'ing Vet) to clean up his hand. With a Karakas on board as insurance, down came two Rhinos. MVP in G2 was Chains. He FoW'ed the first Chains but I got it back with a GSZ/Witness. Therapy took the good stuff and the Chains locked out his BS/Ponder/Preordains, keeping him in top deck mode... drawing lands. While I kept his hand in check with Therapy/TS, the Witness attacked for 7 turns and a final GSZ into Rhino sealed the win.
Record is 4-1 going into R6 and I'm sitting at 7th. There's no Top 8 (snafu here.... long story) so we played out for all the glory.
R6 Justin on Sneak and Show: Lose 1-2
You win some, you lose some. He got Omni on the board in G1 but couldn't draw anything fast enough before a single Rhino took him to zero. Games 2 and 3 were the opposite. He had the nuts and I didn't draw enough anti-combo cards.
So, 4-2 on the day put me at 11th for 24 booster packs. Cracked a foil Marsh Flats and an Arlinn Kord. Not too shabby.
Thoughts:
- Slaughter Games does its job.... if you draw it.
- I like Chains. Yes, I know it shouldn't be in my sideboard (Matt!) but that warm fuzzy feeling when it resolves.... almost sexual ;-)
- Sorin hit the board once all day. Sorin/Stronghold combo is too Christmas-land cute for me. In this deck, I'll be replacing it with either a GSZ'able green creature at cmc=4 (Thrun?) or Sylvan Safekeeper. In both cases I'm thinking they will put more pressure on Miracles. Mind you, Sorin did blind-flip a Rhino before it was Council'ed away.
- Sakura (the Janitor), Top and Library performed well. Didn't see Pruths so can't comment.
- One swamp isn't enough.
- Unusual field; no anyDelver.dec and no DnT. Probably skewed by the 1,700 Standard players in the room.
Over and out.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Well, maybe a list would be helpful here.
1. Being mana flooded happens, typically lists run 22 lands in the configuration below. Keeping uncracked fetches to improve later SDT spins helps to. I also find that Courser of Kruphix is a solid choice to unfuck bad top's and find pieces faster or to the least gains some life. The biggest issue i have with Jund NicFit is the lack of it's high CMC beef. Stormbreath Dragon is closest with that, but other then Thragtusk and Huntmaster of the Fells, not really. But if you want a manasink, ThrunRun...
2. No, sequencing your lands properly is a thing. We can get away with a lot of crap, as long as wel got to crack Dora and make our first 1 or 2 land drops the exact right ones. This totally depends on the opening hand (correct mulligans), what we are up against (mainly if we expect Wasteland or not) and what do we want to sequence into. Sequencing often is opening with either G or B, then either another B or a R depending on Pfire vs Liliana. I often hold Grove in my hand until i have PFire ready.
3. That also happens, quite a lot actually, taking mulligan's and sequencing is key. But as mentioned, in a deck running both Liliana and the full 4 Grove package is asking for it sometimes. A lot of solid hands rely on the proper choice of what to fetch. In my experience, if you can hold green mana you can get away with it. No access to green is often killing. Other devastating things are, not finding Grove or PFire, being forced to fetch duals into Wasteland and not playing into countermagic/Daze/Pierce while low on mana/land count.
4. The deck is all about board control, i learned to play more conservative on the creatures on my opening hand and taking care to what to actually fetch with GSZ and not waste it to much.
5. Since PFire builds are so tight already i have trouble getting in some PTruths. Because the games tend to be long the overall effect of drawing 3 is stretched out. Meaning that quality of quantity matters here.
All in all it depends on soo many factors. This deck is always a mega MEGA grind throughout a tournament. Gaining full board control requires time and patience. On key line is: just enough, just in time.
So for a manabase:
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 flex (Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run or Mountain).
I just was going to post my list about this issue. I want more cretures in my deck but I don't have any room. I maybe want a Couser as a 61th card in the deck, but rather avoid that.
1. I added Lillana becasue she can be good agaist some match up but I want rather have cretures.
2. About the lands, I haven't be so inpress of Volrath's stronghold yet. Help sometimes but not all the time
3. 22 land with only one mountain. I want that mountatin so I can cast my P.Fire serval times per turn. I feel that I am manaflood sometimes so maybe have to cut it :/
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga Land
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Liliana of the Veil Planeswalker - Liliana
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
Sideboard (15)
2 Slaughter Games
1 Golgari Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Trinisphere
1 Choke
1 Reclamation Sage
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Primeval isn't garbage, I just feel like I want a threat that lives through STP in the this deck. For my personal flavour, I'd cut a Fires for an Intent (allows you to tutor for combo), and I'd try to jam Truths in. My two pennies.
Exactly! Only Thrun is intouchable and "medium size threat" in my list. Already done the switch, looks nice this one foil intent ;) Now i have to play it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Plm
@ gruby : the strength of titan lies in fetching kessig, if not answered it's a 2 turn clock, if they have the answer for titan, your explorers are 3 turn clock at least (or combine kessig with thrun for absolute fun). If you remove titan , remove kessig as well.
Stormbreath is nice but since it is non green you should play multiple in order to see it.
But after I play Titan they draw enough removal/burn for it ;( Or that's maybe my bad luck. Stormbreath is imo always as a 2of and yesterday I switched 1Pfire for 1Diabolic intent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Mana:
You really don't need that 3rd Forest. Other Nic Fit versions play 3, but in comparison you already have 4 additional permanent Green sources in Groves. So I am very sure that
- 1 Forest
+ 1 Bayou
is just a clear improvement. Also 3 colorless lands are too much. Make your decison on (Edit) Stronghold vs. Wolf Run. I say play (Edit) Stronghold as long as you have two Witnesses and Tusk, others might argue for keeping Wolf Run. So
- 1 (Edit) Stronghold / Wolf Run
+ 1 Bloodstained Mire.
This will make it much easier to cast Liliana and it will avoid mana problems in general.
Threats:
- I would not replace Titan without a good huge replacement. GSZ gets really much worse if you manage to ramp to 8 Mana, draw your X-Spell and... get a Huntmaster. I still think Primeval is good, he will set up a much stronger Fire engine for the rest of the game or your Two Towers. I think Dragonlord Atarka is playable, maybe he is an alternative if you really hate Titan.
- a 3rd Liliana sounds good, if you fix your Mana
- Stormbreath Dragon is not a good card in general, but on the other hand he is clearly very good in this meta.
- Vraska seems bad, especially once you played new Sorin
Punishing Fire Nic Fit in general:
- seems to be not in the best place in general, it lacks power and looks underwhelming. The entire thing might need a revamp.
About bayou.... it's the budget thing. Would Overgrown tomb be enough? Same is for third Lilly.
Late game's fetches are often without targets but Vraska shines there. And I use ulti 30% when she hits the table.
Sorin looks bad without white ;)
Punishing is cool about grindy games, but it have hard games with creacures with 4or higher toughness.
I very like this deck but I think I need to have white splash for switching to abzan ;) but money all the time.... and wife's howling about "this paper shit" :laugh:
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Since the Jund vs Eldrazi match was over so quickly there was time for some SE Fit vs Delver games. Won like usual but the games were more about tracking cards. Games I won went long and averaged around 22 cards seen/20 drawn for me and 9 seen/18 drawn for Delver ending on turn 11. Games Delver won were about half that. That includes the initial 7 drawn and 1 per turn under the drawn category, but seen is just extra cards looked at and not grabbed. The main difference was that Delver was usually able to see more cards at once, while it was much more incremental for Nic Fit, so over time it pulled ahead pretty easily (especially since all those extra cards seen lead to on board 2 for 1's which generated a lot of the actual CA) but if looking for something in a short span of time Delver was still favored. In hands with Top, I was always ahead in the cards seen category by a pretty healthy number, in hands without Top I didn't really catch up until turn 5. But, I was usually able to pull ahead in actual cards by turn 3-4.
So what you're saying is that if we manage to survive through the first couple of turns, we have built something that gets to look at (and draw) more cards than your average Delver.dec.
Well gentlemen, look at that. A non-blue deck that looks at and draws more cards than the blue decks. I think it's safe to say that we can be proud of what we've accomplished!
If we want to be completely on par as far as speed is concerned, we need to find a way to dig for Tops. I'll be mulling on this tomorrow.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
So what you're saying is that if we manage to survive through the first couple of turns, we have built something that gets to look at (and draw) more cards than your average Delver.dec.
Well gentlemen, look at that. A non-blue deck that looks at and draws more cards than the blue decks. I think it's safe to say that we can be proud of what we've accomplished!
If we want to be completely on par as far as speed is concerned, we need to find a way to dig for Tops. I'll be mulling on this tomorrow.
Don't make me say E. Tutor or Intent.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I think Punishing Nic Fit is a meta deck and the Meta is wrong for it. It is supposed to beat the creature decks, but it doesnt do that against Eldrazi. Not surprised that Brael got stomped, I had the same results. The deck either needs a complete revamp so that it beats Grixis and D&T while still going at least even against Miracles and Eldrazi. If that is impossible it should be put aside until the meta changes.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Don't make me say E. Tutor or Intent.
Enlightened Tutor might do it, you can always cash it in for a Courser or Deed when you don't want a Top it's still -1 card to cast though, the problem is in making a slot and taking disadvantage now for an advantage later if you can invest enough into it, the deck already gets a good long term payoff as it is.
I don't think Intent works in a build focused on CA though. Outside of the 4 Vets and 1 of Ooze/Witness, every creature generates value by remaining on the battlefield, I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of it to get a Top. In the case of the Confidant/Courser/Tracker CA package, Top really powers all of those up and they stack well with each other. In the case of the bigger things like Rhino or Sigarda it just seems real bad to sacrifice one of them.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Enlightened Tutor might do it, you can always cash it in for a Courser or Deed when you don't want a Top it's still -1 card to cast though, the problem is in making a slot and taking disadvantage now for an advantage later if you can invest enough into it, the deck already gets a good long term payoff as it is.
I don't think Intent works in a build focused on CA though. Outside of the 4 Vets and 1 of Ooze/Witness, every creature generates value by remaining on the battlefield, I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of it to get a Top. In the case of the Confidant/Courser/Tracker CA package, Top really powers all of those up and they stack well with each other. In the case of the bigger things like Rhino or Sigarda it just seems real bad to sacrifice one of them.
Rhino into Intent into moar Rhino is solid
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Rhino into Intent into moar Rhino is solid
Unless your Intent gets countered. Rhino generates too much onboard value to risk it over a mere 3 point drain.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
So what you're saying is that if we manage to survive through the first couple of turns, we have built something that gets to look at (and draw) more cards than your average Delver.dec.
Well gentlemen, look at that. A non-blue deck that looks at and draws more cards than the blue decks. I think it's safe to say that we can be proud of what we've accomplished!
If we want to be completely on par as far as speed is concerned, we need to find a way to dig for Tops. I'll be mulling on this tomorrow.
Yes, we draw more cards and create other 2 for 1's. For example I haven't been counting Veteran Explorer triggers as seeing cards or drawing them and we have other on board 2 for 1's as well like Deed and Therapy. I haven't been counting Volraths either, it's not quite draw, and I don't think it quite counts as seeing cards either but in one of my games last night it absolutely won me a game as I was able to Volraths every turn for Arbor, play Arbor from the top with Courser, gain 1, and then use Arbor to chump Gurmag Angler while still getting my draw to go deeper into my library every turn.
Delver effectively stays ahead on cards through most of the game (our need for more lands means we need to get a couple extra cards to break even) with the way I've been counting so far, but we also dig deeper so we're getting better quality and that lets us string together other 2 for 1's. I give it to Delver to hit a sideboard card on turns 1-2 because their digging is cheaper, but I give it to Nic Fit to hit it on 3+ because our digging is better, mana permitting.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
Unless your Intent gets countered.
Has anyone ever tried Boseiju, Who Shelters All to force through GSZ, Intent, Vindicate, etc.?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hmmm_Really?
I never have, but I don't think the mana base can handle such a eyesore of a land. I would run Xantid Swarm or Vexing Shusher over Boseiju in Nic Fit.
Or you could just run more Thoughtseizes.:rolleyes:
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I top 8'd the Milwaukee classic today with almighty rhino, I'll try to post a list/report tomorrow maybe.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I don't think Intent works in a build focused on CA though. Outside of the 4 Vets and 1 of Ooze/Witness, every creature generates value by remaining on the battlefield, I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of it to get a Top.
*cough* sfm ;) *cough*
@Bjorn, that's fan-freaking-tastic, thanks for coming here to share it with us :D
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
*cough* sfm ;) *cough*
@Bjorn, that's fan-freaking-tastic, thanks for coming here to share it with us :D
SFM builds can definitely use Intent much better than I can. My 2 drop creatures are mainly Bobs, not something I really want to kill off.
Intent gets much better in a deck where your creatures generate high value on cast but low value for remaining on the board. More SFM, Eternal Witness, etc.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bjorn The Jesus
I top 8'd the Milwaukee classic today with almighty rhino, I'll try to post a list/report tomorrow maybe.
Glad someone did. I went 2-3-1 drop with my last match to a bug pod nic fit player. Meren was sweet (in their build)
I'll post my thought/decklist sometime this week. 4 rhinos is quite wonderful though.
