[DTB] Vial Goblins

To start this off, i want to say that im from Sweden so my grammar won't be perfect, with that said, let's begin.

I've had some problems with a consistent MD (been trying Steve Sadin's 9-0 list) but it haven't worked out at all, so after a lot of playtesting (mws, irl, magic online) i've concluded something like this to be my final MD list:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Warren Instigator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Warren Weirding
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial

3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
6 Mountain

As you can see, the MD do only have wasteland as mana denial, but this deck is so aggressive so the opponent has to answer on every creature i play the first 3 rounds to not die.

The SB is not yet decided, this is all i've come up to so far:
3 Krosan Grip

I want to play Pyrokinesis since i always get happy when i get to draw it against aggro/mirror.
I also want Perish against Zoo, tempo decks and new horizon.
I also want Blood Moon against landstill (also it's OK against Zoo, they can only play their fireblasts and bolts)
I want Chalice of the Void against combo and Zoo.
I want Extirpate/Relic/Crypt against Survival/Graveyard decks
I want Mindbreak Trap or Thron of Amethyst against Combo

Many of those cards fills the same role but i can't decide what to play... The only thing im pretty sure about is that i want to play Mindbreak Trap over Thorn, since pressure + unexpected hate really helps when facing combo.

But i need help to find a consistent SB (Im pretty sure the MD is consistent as it is, but if you have a tip, please share it). I've played the deck for about 2 years and i have placed very consistent on all legacy tournament, exept one. The sideevent at GP Gothenburg, i went 4-4, before that my worst record was 4-2...

In Gothenburg i played Steve Sadins list and i did not like it (but it was good against mirror, faced 3 mirror games, won 2 pretty stable, the one i lost was kinda close).

I would love to hear all your thoughts.

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Originally Posted by antonbystedt

The SB is not yet decided, this is all i've come up to so far:
3 Krosan Grip

I want to play Pyrokinesis since i always get happy when i get to draw it against aggro/mirror.
I also want Perish against Zoo, tempo decks and new horizon.
I also want Blood Moon against landstill (also it's OK against Zoo, they can only play their fireblasts and bolts)
I want Chalice of the Void against combo and Zoo.
I want Extirpate/Relic/Crypt against Survival/Graveyard decks
I want Mindbreak Trap or Thron of Amethyst against Combo

Many of those cards fills the same role but i can't decide what to play... The only thing im pretty sure about is that i want to play Mindbreak Trap over Thorn, since pressure + unexpected hate really helps when facing combo.

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As you said: MD is well structured and looks consitant (although I like Mogg War Marshal more than Warren Instigator). If I understood the concept right you don't play Gempalm in order to consistantly clear the way in your first 2-4 turns. Lightning Bolt and Weirding do better here, right?

I'll focus on your SB:

3 Krosan Grip - should stay there (although I'm advocating Nature's Claim as an alternative)
X Pyrokinesis - should be in your SB, if you know how to use it, it's just great
X Perish - ...also good against any Bant list, Progenitus, Elves etc...
X Bloodmoon- is not needed. CC3 is very high for a non-goblin spell. Your opponents will fetch on basics because they fear your Watselands. It doesnt actually change the board position or turn the match around. Therefore: don't play it.
X Chalice - is nice against Zoo, but nothing more. You have enough cards in SB that are better (Pyrokinesis and Perish) and you don't want to miss your creatures.
X Graveyard hate - I'm an advocate of graveyard hate that youi can play for free: Leyline, Crypt, Faerie Macabre. Should fill 3-4 slots.
X Trap vs. Thorn - agreed, Trap is better (see last page)

Therefore I'd suggest this SB:

3 Krosan Grip / Nature's Claim
5 Perish & Pyrokinesis ( I'd play 3-2)
3 Leyline / Crypt / Macabre ( I play Leyline)
4 Mindbreak Trap

I don't know if he fits into your meta but Goblin Sharpshooter is very flexible too. He burns down: combo's Empty the Warrens, mirror-Goblins, Thopter Foundry Token, Bitterblossom Token, Elves...

My sideboard looks like this:

3 Nature's Claim
3 Perish
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Have you tried playing Pithing Needle? I've heard it's a pretty solid card in SB but i've never played it.

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Originally Posted by TossUsToLions

That 4c countertop list can be a bit tricky. Firespout is extremely annoying to play against, and some decks board in a 4th. Just remember not to overextend. I know this hurts your piledriver, but holding onto that Ringleader, Matron, or SGC for after a firespout can win you the game. Also, black splash helps because they usually play 5-7 creatures, so Warren Weirding is a beast against this deck. Pithing Needle in SB helps against Jace if necessary, but he usually isn't the problem, firespout is

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I don't think you should hold a Ringleader or a Matron in hand. Ringleader is card advantage, and a 2/2 bod with haste. If they don't kill it in 2-3 turns, you got 4-6 dmg, for "free", since they'll have to Firespout, and then you can cast the goblins you drew.
Matron should be played for Ringleader ASAP. You don't want to give them time to get CB/Top on, once there are usually 5-7 3cc cards on the deck. Also, Matron+Ringleader are 3 dmg per turn, and thats something the CB player cannot ignore.

Edit:
@antonbystedt :
On page 257 we have a pretty good discussion about Needle. Go check that out.

PS: Whats Sadins 9-0 list?

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

PS: Whats Sadins 9-0 list?

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Well, it's a video on youtube, i can link it:
Legacy Deck Tech: Goblins with Steve Sadin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekylBN29TQ0

Here is the list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Tin Steeet Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
5 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
SB:
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Mogg War Marshal

@Gobolord:
Yeah you are right about MD, the Weirdings and Bolts are there to clear the way for the Lackeys and the Instigator to make a hit, the reason that im playing Instigator over MWM are because i really like to set up quick starts with early removal so the opponent have to respond on what i am doing, rather than playing threats himself.

Thx to the SB tips, it seems to be consistent so i will try it out :)

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I think denying UU is just too hard, for too little. Usually, Jace2;0 isn't an issue. It is just bad against us, since we can kill it with ease. Same goes for Clique. Counterspells are good for him, but you now whats better? Wiping our board away, or dropping a 4/5-5/6 dude that will win the game. Thats why I prefer denying them the splash colors. (1st green, then red, respectively).

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Well, you just have to keep them on one U for as long as you can while you lay down the beats. The idea is, hopefully you can force them into fetching basics which slows them down a lot. You don't have to deny them of ALL U. Jace2.0 and Clique can both be saved by Karakas.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

@combo: I'm currently thinking of going up to 3 ReB, and maybe (maybe) 3 Traps in the SB.
For players who have tested it: How often does a config like that leads to a win against Combo?
Right now, theres way more combo in my meta, than grave-dependent decks, so I'd be advocating one for the other...

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I never really liked REB. It feels like if I had mindbreak trap + REB, I wouldn't be able to play anything first tern in fear of not being able to REB. Has that happened to you where you had to choose between REB and vial/lackey??

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I think lotriderm has just gotten frustrated after a string of bad luck against CT. It happens. I was convinced for the longest time that Zoo was impossible to beat, but I've since seen that it can be ground down and falters once you drag it into the late game. It's all about first impressions. lotriderm probably lost to CT the first couple of times playing against it, and now feels that it's a bad matchup. That kind of thinking leads to bad sideboarding and keeping hands that you shouldn't. And it also affects your play. Once you think you're gonna lose you start to play like you're gonna lose. That's what lotriderm is experiencing (or a vicious string of bad luck-- also part of the game).

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I know what you mean. I felt the same way about zoo last year. Luckily, my goblins finally learned how to block.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

So I guess my advice really is this: Do what Goblins do. Mull to strong hands (at least one 1-drop

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Thank you, that's wha tI do. I keep telling people to do it with goblins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

Well, you just have to keep them on one U for as long as you can while you lay down the beats. The idea is, hopefully you can force them into fetching basics which slows them down a lot. You don't have to deny them of ALL U. Jace2.0 and Clique can both be saved by Karakas.

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And I thought Karakas only returned Legendary Creatures...

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Originally Posted by jin

I never really liked REB. It feels like if I had mindbreak trap + REB, I wouldn't be able to play anything first tern in fear of not being able to REB. Has that happened to you where you had to choose between REB and vial/lackey??

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I'd go for Lackey, as usual.
My primary combo hate would be Trap. If ReB could nail anything, good. If not, bummer.
It's there mostly for other MU's, not mainly for Combo...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I'd go for Lackey, as usual.
My primary combo hate would be Trap. If ReB could nail anything, good. If not, bummer.
It's there mostly for other MU's, not mainly for Combo...

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Gotta start off with Lackey. Put some pressure on.

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Instigator over MWM are because i really like to set up quick starts with early removal so the opponent have to respond on what i am doing, rather than playing threats himself..

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I think this depends. MWM is so good against mirror, Zoo, and Merfolk. I especially like it with Cabal Therapy. Personally, I think Instigator is very weak, but if the metagame is letting your 1/1 through, then by all means, get 'em.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

And I thought Karakas only returned Legendary Creatures...

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Oh man.. now I just look stupid. Sorry, I didn't read the oracle text for this card yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

I'd go for Lackey, as usual.
My primary combo hate would be Trap. If ReB could nail anything, good. If not, bummer.
It's there mostly for other MU's, not mainly for Combo...

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huh.. interesting.. so what is it? a 3/3 split?

If you're expecting a lot of Survival, would you go 3 or 4 Pithing Needle? Would you bring in any other cards or thats all you'd 'dilute' your deck with? After dying to a turn 4 Vengevine attack (after casting Perish turn 3) I am pretty wary of this deck atm.

Went 3-1 taking 2nd place at 25 person tournament on Labor Day. I ran RB with Instigators, Weirding and Bolts.

15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar - this should have been Thorns
3 Anarchy
2 Nature's Ruin
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Perish

Round 1 vs Living End
This is a kid that usually plays casual and I lent him the deck before the tournament so I know exactly what he's playing. Game one I get him an Instigator gets through unblocked, I win the next turn. During game two I kept a hand that would have easily won turn three, but Living End gets there. Game three I mulligan till I hit Leyline. He can't answer it, and I win.

1-0
2-1

Round 2 vs Mono Green Aggro
I don't remember much, he was playing jank and I easily 2-0 him.

2-0
3-1

Round 3 vs Burn
I play one of my close friends who was in from out of town to play. Game one I roll him on turn three. Light Bolt seriously saved my ass. Game two he gets me on turn three. Game three was utterly depressing. I'm at 4 life. He has no cards in hand. I swing him down to 7 with Instigator dropping double Siege-Gang. He top decks Fireblast for the win. Wish I had my Thorns here. Would have made all the difference.

2-1
4-2

Round 4 vs Zoo Homebrew (with Force of Will? seemed like a tempo thresh shell)
Classmate of mine finally made it to our monthly Legacy tournaments. He beats the crap out of me game one. Game two I kill him on turn 3 and he says he "underestimated my play skill." Game three I get him into the late game, survive two Pyroclasms by holding back Siege-Gang and win shortly after.

3-1
6-3

I walk away with a handful of DCI promos. Overall was a great night.

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Originally Posted by TheSleeper

If you're expecting a lot of Survival, would you go 3 or 4 Pithing Needle? Would you bring in any other cards or thats all you'd 'dilute' your deck with? After dying to a turn 4 Vengevine attack (after casting Perish turn 3) I am pretty wary of this deck atm.

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aren't macabre/extirpates better? I got the feeling (from reading a lot reports) that after you remove the vengevines, the deck simply has no monsters.

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Originally Posted by jin

huh.. interesting.. so what is it? a 3/3 split?

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I think I'm going to test that now... te SB I'm testing is: 3- Knesis, Perish, Needle, ReB, Trap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSleeper

If you're expecting a lot of Survival, would you go 3 or 4 Pithing Needle? Would you bring in any other cards or thats all you'd 'dilute' your deck with? After dying to a turn 4 Vengevine attack (after casting Perish turn 3) I am pretty wary of this deck atm.

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I guess I will never go up to 4 Needles. If you combine them with Faeries, I think you're in good shape. If you play black, Extirpate is aways a great option.

I just got this crazy idea. Lately I've been trying Warren Instigator out because I think the deck sometimes lacks early pressure if there's no Lackey or Vial and in that case we basically have to mulligan. Running Instigators improves this situation somewhat. But that's not the crazy idea I have. If we're running Instigators and Lackeys the deck will be relying on getting them through more than with other builds. Some people have tested Smoldering Spires but them entering play tapped is very bad. So Ive been looking for an alternative and I came across Blinkmoth Well. It doesn't come into play tapped, it gives a colorless mana and it taps a non-artifact creature for 2 (and you have to tap the Well itself). Having Instigators and Lackey connect is tech! Maybe its more suited as a sideboard card against control decks since they run only little creatures (mostly Tarmogoyf)? I guess Rishadan Port should be sided out when these come in. So I wonder if you guys think it might be good enough to try out.

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Originally Posted by Nelis

I just got this crazy idea. Lately I've been trying Warren Instigator out because I think the deck sometimes lacks early pressure if there's no Lackey or Vial and in that case we basically have to mulligan. Running Instigators improves this situation somewhat. But that's not the crazy idea I have. If we're running Instigators and Lackeys the deck will be relying on getting them through more than with other builds. Some people have tested Smoldering Spires but them entering play tapped is very bad. So Ive been looking for an alternative and I came across Blinkmoth Well. It doesn't come into play tapped, it gives a colorless mana and it taps a non-artifact creature for 2 (and you have to tap the Well itself). Having Instigators and Lackey connect is tech! Maybe its more suited as a sideboard card against control decks since they run only little creatures (mostly Tarmogoyf)? I guess Rishadan Port should be sided out when these come in. So I wonder if you guys think it might be good enough to try out.

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Alright, I quadruple-checked the card and it still says "2,T: Tap target noncreature artifact."
Noncreature.
Artifact.

Not Nonartifact creature.

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Originally Posted by Nidd

Alright, I quadruple-checked the card and it still says "2,T: Tap target noncreature artifact."
Noncreature.
Artifact.

Not Nonartifact creature.

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Ahh, I'm a victim of my own desires. Bad one. Never mind then.

Lets talk about something else. I want to play monoR goblins this weekend at my local tournament. So I like some help on my sideboard. Ill start with my main deck and then expected metagame and then sideboard.


//Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
17 Mountain

Expected metagame:
Burn
Goblins (maybe Dredge)
Vengesurvival (maybe Faeries)
Rock D&T
Supreme Blue
Supreme Blue / Insomnia
Merfolk (maybe Faeries)
Merfolk
NO Counterbalance
2 unknowns, one probably runs blue as well.

The biggest problem I might face is Progenitus.

Sideboard + explanations
3 Pyrokinesis (vs Merfolk and other aggro
2 Relic of Progenitus (vs Survival / D&T / Dredge / randomness)
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Warren Instigator (im thinking of putting these in vs the blue match-ups and maybe Dredge should it appear. I dont want to put them in the main because I still feel a lot of times there's too little cards in hand to put in play))
1 Gempalm Instigator (random aggro)

That leaves 5 cards.

I know at least two players will play Vedalken Shackles so I'm thinking of putting in a Tuktuk Scrapper.
Should I play a 4th Pyrokinesis since it seems around half of the players play aggro?
That leaves 3 slots open. What to put in?

Thanx.

If 50% of the Meta is Aggro, Lightning Crafter seems awesome.

Also, in a build with 8 colorless lands, Insitgator seems to be bad. I guess that's the slot for Crafter.
Maybe you can find some slots for Stingscourgers? I've never been disappointed by them.

How do you feel about Harmonic Convergence

http://magiccards.info/ul/en/103.html

instead of Back to Nature vs Enchantress? It gets around Karmic Justice which is my huge thing. . .