Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Actually, to say it better, I do not think that Envelop is better, the two cards don't compare that well. FoW is good because it stops a kill on their first or second turn and it allows you tap out. But I didn't like it anymore because it was too unrealiable and the cost was too hefty. It happened frequently that I either had not no second blue card or that I would have needed the Brainstorm or Jace that I exiled and ended up doing nothing while the opponent just drew himself a new Combo.
So to replace it I wanted something that acts similarly in terms of speed, and that's why I thought of Envelop. Maybe a 2/3 split in favor of Negate or a 3/3 split can be right, too.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Actually, to say it better, I do not think that Envelop is better, the two cards don't compare that well. FoW is good because it stops a kill on their first or second turn and it allows you tap out. But I didn't like it anymore because it was too unrealiable and the cost was too hefty. It happened frequently that I either had not no second blue card or that I would have needed the Brainstorm or Jace that I exiled and ended up doing nothing while the opponent just drew himself a new Combo.
So to replace it I wanted something that acts similarly in terms of speed, and that's why I thought of Envelop. Maybe a 2/3 split in favor of Negate or a 3/3 split can be right, too.
What's wrong with Flusterstorm? Surely it's better against anything except an SNT where they can pay 2.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
What's wrong with Flusterstorm? Surely it's better against anything except an SNT where they can pay 2.
If you're comparing it to Envelop, it's likely not countering a NO out of elves.
If you're comparing it to Negate, it doesn't counter Sneak Attack, Dream Halls or Jace.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Taxing counter, plus veteran explorer seems like a nonbo
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
For turn one against any combo deck Flusterstorm is better than Envelop. That is what was being discussed.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Thanks for the criticisms, guys. I'm probably playing this in Cinci so this is informing my last-minute tuning.
Schulzchop: You've given me the gumption to run Slime in the main, though I still like Recurring Nightmare over Deadeye. I don't think I'd run the first C Oracle over the fourth Baleful.
Like you say Deed gets worse with Deathrite Shaman, but I could see it being worth running anyway. After all, BUG Landstill tends to run both for the same reason. Replace my Jittes in the board would be a pretty safe move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
- I don't care who tells me why Brainstorm is bad in this deck.
When did I say Brainstorm was bad in this deck? Brainstorm is clearly the nutter butters, but I'm still not convinced that it's better than Top here. Like we need the game to last a few turns to win, and several turns of Top activating is often more powerful than a Brainstorm resolving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Not being able to kill things like Revoker, Mindcensor or Jitte is a pretty big deal.
Eh? The deck has a few different answers to Revoker and Mindcensor, and I can save Abrupt Decay for Jitte if it really seems important. Killing middling creatures is one of the main reasons to keep Redcap in the deck, and I'm happy I have access to it more often than not.
Also, I never thought I'd see you calling Scavenging Ooze "underpowered," especially in a veteran explorer deck. Most of those other slots have also proven themselves. Running a pile of versatile one-of targets is kind of the point of a tutor package, which I'd think you'd realize from your experience with Nic Fit and cards like Wickerbough Elder. Remember, Pod is more than just a tutor, it's also an engine, and to maximize its value you need to have a reasonable targets for most situations so that you're consistently increasing your position every turn. This isn't my own personal discovery, this is just how Pod works.
I think you're right about Varolz. I had a few games where he just did insane things, pumping a flyer out of nowhere, but as I tune the deck I keep cutting cards he goes good with (like Thrun). He also relies on accrued value to be good, making him a weak draw in the early game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
-the way he approaches the Combo matchup. If you are telling yourself that Mindbreak Trap and Arcane Lab are good against Show and Tell decks you are lying to yourself.
Or you've, you know, tested the cards. Obviously Mindbreak Trap isn't there for Omni-Tell, but since it's in the board it's worth bringing in. I know this because I've done the work to test an unintuitive sideboard plan.
Arcane Lab, meanwhile, is the best hate card I've found. Consider this line vs Omniscience: They resolve Show and Tell, putting in Omniscience. They have to pass the turn.
On your turn, you Therapy them naming Cunning Wish. Who cares if it hits, you just bought another turn. Meanwhile, your Pod is activating and your creatures are attacking. On the next turn, you flashback Therapy.
Obviously this isn't a thing vs Sneak and Show, but I never claimed it was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I was shocked when Caleb said that Thragtusk has been underperforming for him. Just absolutely stunned. Thrag is consistently one of the best cards in my deck, regardless of which version I'm playing.
Glad you like 5/3s, I guess. I think you should be able to get more for five mana in Legacy. For another mana we get a Grave Titan, which you hate for some reason, and for a mana less we get Thrun. Both of those cards individually have won me far more games than Tusk ever will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
I think it is because he does not run deed or decay. So that 2 drop creature everyone plays is always going to have much greater game impact than a thragtusk since by the time thrag comes out goyf will probably be a 5/6 at least.
I do run Decay and have a variety of other tools to help contain 'Goyf, but yes that's correct. A random 5/3 has not impressed me in any version of any Legacy deck. That's mostly because it's often mediocre when you're behind on board, which is when it needs to be impressive. Even Slime trades with a Goyf.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CalebD
Like you say Deed gets worse with Deathrite Shaman, but I could see it being worth running anyway. After all, BUG Landstill tends to run both for the same reason. Replace my Jittes in the board would be a pretty safe move.
How about running Pernicious Deed in the main and/or side and replace Deathrite Shaman with Sakura-Tribe Elder? This approach fits better with the heavy Birthing Pod strategy. I personally am not a fan of Deathrite Shaman in Nic Fit because he doesn't provide immediate value.
If the argument for Deathrite Shaman is graveyard hate then Scavenging Ooze wins by far. The life gain/shock is mediocre because plan 'a' is to drop value bombs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CalebD
When did I say Brainstorm was bad in this deck? Brainstorm is clearly the nutter butters, but I'm still not convinced that it's better than Top here. Like we need the game to last a few turns to win, and several turns of Top activating is often more powerful than a Brainstorm resolving.
I can see this argument going in favor of either card. Brainstorm lets you fix your opening hand really well. Nic Fit has many shuffle effects for Brainstorm beyond fetch lands. Late game I'd rather have a Sensei's Divining Top out. My vote: Brainstorm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CalebD
Also, I never thought I'd see you calling Scavenging Ooze "underpowered," especially in a veteran explorer deck.
Scavenging Ooze belongs in every Nic Fit list!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CalebD
Or you've, you know, tested the cards. Obviously Mindbreak Trap isn't there for Omni-Tell, but since it's in the board it's worth bringing in. I know this because I've done the work to test an unintuitive sideboard plan.
Arcane Lab, meanwhile, is the best hate card I've found. Consider this line vs Omniscience: They resolve Show and Tell, putting in Omniscience. They have to pass the turn.
On your turn, you Therapy them naming Cunning Wish. Who cares if it hits, you just bought another turn. Meanwhile, your Pod is activating and your creatures are attacking. On the next turn, you flashback Therapy.
Obviously this isn't a thing vs Sneak and Show, but I never claimed it was.
Something else to consider is how to bypass Omniclash's Leyline of Sanctity when most of your disruption relies on discard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CalebD
Glad you like 5/3s, I guess. I think you should be able to get more for five mana in Legacy. For another mana we get a Grave Titan, which you hate for some reason, and for a mana less we get Thrun. Both of those cards individually have won me far more games than Tusk ever will.
I do run Decay and have a variety of other tools to help contain 'Goyf, but yes that's correct. A random 5/3 has not impressed me in any version of any Legacy deck. That's mostly because it's often mediocre when you're behind on board, which is when it needs to be impressive. Even Slime trades with a Goyf.
Thragtusk has won me many games with various lists. He gets even better with Volrath's Stronghold. However, I've ran lists with 4 Baleful Strix and found that they can stall the game long enough so that you don't require the Thragtusk life gain.
Side note: Baleful Strix + Volrath's Stronghold can put you really far ahead.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TakeYourTime
Eh, I'm with Caleb on this one. Consider: what is Brainstorm good for?
1) Providing an immediate burst of card advantage;
2) Digging for answers at instant speed.
In a mostly sorcery-speed deck like Nic Fit, the value of #2 is pretty small, so whether you want to run Brainstorm or Top depends entirely on how much you care about #1. While immediate bursts of card advantage are usually awesome, the value you get out of it in a grind-'em-out midrange deck is diluted by the amount time it takes you to parlay that into a tangible advantage over your opponent (simply having a bunch of good cards in hand is not enough). I don't think there's any real argument as to which is better in the abstract - a single Brainstorm or a single Top activation - but things get really tricky to evaluate when you start looking at several turns in a row. For example, which is better over three consecutive turns, a single Brainstorm, or three Top activations? What about four turns? Five? Nic Fit is generally interested in the medium and long term - you sort of have to be, if you're realistically interested in casting six-drops in this format - so the weaker but steadier card advantage provided by Top adds up over time, probably outweighing the effects of a single Brainstorm.
Of course, Brainstorm is a very powerful card, so it's easy for these effects to be harder to notice in-game. Brainstorm is also significantly better at sculpting an early game state that favors going long. It may be worth it to test both, but my gut says that Top is going to be the better card here.
Also, a lot of shuffle effects benefits Top as well. It actually benefits Top even more so than Brainstorm, since you can reliably shuffle your library once you start spinning up too many dead cards.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TakeYourTime
That's a really good interaction that I've been missing because I usually don't have Stronghold in my list. I'll try it out this weekend and see if I like Tusk better.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
for the MD 1-offs: I do not dislike any of them in particular. I just think there are too many in general, that's why I listed even the ones I really love.
for the SB cards Lab&Trap: For Show and Tell decks in general they are not good, for Sneak and Show they do nothing, and for Omnitell only 2 of 5 dedicated Anti-Combo cards are good. So if you expect both decks in equal numbers that is 2/10. And for Elves it is the same, only Laboratory is good (though it still loses to Order) and against Reanimator both are not good. So overall I would say that Lab and Trap are poor choices when all they do is hate Combo but don't work against at least half of the Combo decks.
If I were to make an alternative list, bases on your list (which is btw despite my criticism also much better in some ways than what I had brewed up - and if you care about that I know and appreciate that you were the first who brought up Strix Pod) and what I experienced, it would look like this:
- with the Extra search from Brainstorm and Oracle combined with how much longer the games go if you kill their stuff with Deed and an extra Decay I feel safe to go down to 3 Pod
- without a big Titan to search for GSZ loses a lot of its value. It is just extra copies of Explorer, and maybe a Witness or a Tusk from time to time, but nothing that will win you the game. It also encourages the excessive use of 1-offs.
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Grave Titan
4 Brainstorm
3 Birthing Pod
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Envelop
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Interesting, thanks for the list Tao. While I don't agree with a lot of those numbers, you've given me a lot to think about. Perhaps I'll take Arianrod's advice and try a miser's GSZ.
My main hesitation is that Dryad Arbor is useful for enabling Pod on turn two. We already have two other ways of doing that, but it's still a factor. It also turns a fetchland into a Recurring Nightmare chain.
Why do you prefer Golgari Charm to Engineered Plague?
Sylvan Library is another card to compete in the Bstorm/Top debate, and I like that it can actually draw cards.
What do you guys think about Skinrender vs Redcap? Recap hits players and planeswalkers, and the persist is relevant for Pod and Shadowborn, but Skinrender comes with a bigger body (relevant with all the 2/xs running around) and can make a Goyf manageable. I guess Redcap can always chump for that turn you need Shadowborn to come online anyway.
I like Mindbreak because I face Belcher every other Open, and when you factor in Storm my odds of needing Trap rise to almost every event. If I took an auto loss vs Belcher I'd start every event with roughly half a match loss. If the tournaments were smaller or had a more defined metagame I'd like Trap less.
Since the deck can fire off a Arcane Lab as early as turn two, it's another card that can shore up the Storm matchup.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
- I am honestly unsure about GSZ. I can't help you with that in either direction. The pros/cons are both convincing.
- For Golgari Charm most importantly it is good against Show and Tell decks. It kills the White Leyline (which both versions will board in) as well as idle Sneak Attacks, Dream Halls and Omnisciences which happen quite frequently after Discard wars. Against Death and Taxes Golgari Charm it also kills Rest in Peace.
- Skinrender vs. Redcap is pretty close. One thing more to consider is that Redcap leaves you with a 1/1 body afterwards which you can use for Pod, Therapy or Demon.
- Just from the numbers in general Elves is very popular (Envelop is amazing against them) and on top of it there is more Omnitell+Sneak+Reanimator than Storm+Belcher. If you have a read on the Meta that this won't be the case in the SCG Lab/Trap makes sense. You are much closer to SCG so you will know better.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Some points --
-) My biggest reason for not being a fan of Grave Titan is that he doesn't -do- anything. He just beats. Yes, he's a hell of an effective beater -- but usually, if you're winning with Grave Titan, you could be winning with a ham sandwich. I don't consider Nic Fit to be an aggro deck. I would rather adopt the combo-control archetype -- value-grind your opponent down, control the game, combo for the kill or kill with whatever random dorks you have lying around once they run out of resources. This is probably one reason why I value Thragtusk significantly more than Caleb. Yes, Thrag is "just" a 5/3. But it does stuff on both ends of its existence, and it buys a ton of time while assembling a combo. Additionally, Thrag is definitely much more appreciable when Deed is around. If they don't have Goyf, Thrag is gigantic.
-) Primeval -> 2 towers, Deadeye, Zegana, and/or Progenitor Mimic all seem better than Grave Titan to me. Again, I think that I'm wanting the deck to be more value-oriented and less punch-you-in-the-face-big.
-) Sea Gate Oracle is bananas.
-) Sylvan dying to Deed is a thing. If you are 100% opposed to running Deed, then Sylvan is probably the way to go. If you're on the Deed plan, Top/Brainstorm is your decision -- Sylvan is not a card.
-) IMO, Redcap vs Skinrender is meta dependent and list dependent. Render is better if you're expecting a heavy Goyf room AND if you aren't running Deed (Render is not an optional trigger, and you don't want it to need to shoot itself). Otherwise, I'd go for Redcap.
-) Tao's spot-on with his assessment of Golgari Charm -- but I'd also add that the card does some other relevant things beyond just wrathing Elves and killing Leylines/Sneaks/etc. It's also real against Miracles, and is probably boardable vs UW decks in general because of the regeneration mode, which can blank Supreme Verdict. Since a Pod list is necessarily going to be over-committing a lot of the time, having a source of regeneration is probably reasonably important.
-) If you cut GSZ / run a miser's, Dryad Arbor is bad. If you're running Deed, Arbor is bad. Otherwise, it's fantastic.
-) More effective sideboard hate: Venser, Shaper Savant, Cranial Extraction, Nether Void/Trinisphere. I would take a couple slots of this type of hate, and then season with some "early defense" hate -- a mix of Flusterstorm, Negate, Envelop, maybe a few Force of Wills, potentially a couple Mindbreak Traps.
The Belcher complaint is relevant, and fast combo tends to be one of the absolute worst things for Nic Fit in general. Flusterstorm is probably the correct call for the "early defense," with maybe a few Envelops mixed in. I like that Flusterstorm essentially can't be countered -- you can hit their Show and Tell and they can't just Force back. Fluster not hitting Dream Halls or Belcher is a thing, but you can hit Belcher's rituals prior to the artifact to screw them up, and if Omni is playing Dream Halls, you should be able to deal with that another way (ideally Glen Elendra).
I like Venser SS here, especially if you end up going down the Deadeye path. However, I acknowledge that Glen Elendra is probably the better 4-spot anti-combo. I could still see running a 1-of Venser SS in the board to bring in vs Show and Tell -- worst case you can Pod for it, bounce itself, and turn off their Show and Tells if you don't have a U open post-pod activation for Glen Elendra.
Cranial Extraction is arguably the most effective/powerful combo hate that Nic Fit has access to. The issue is that A: it can be countered, and B: it loses to Leyline of Sanctity. I would still consider running 1-2 copies in the board, though, because it's lights-out if it resolves.
Trinisphere is a consideration if you're on the 3x Carpet of Flowers plan. If you aren't, then I probably wouldn't bother as it isn't going to do anything to Omni otherwise, as you'll be providing them with islands. Nether Void may be a stronger call here, as OmniTell likely isn't going to get up to the requisite 6 mana to do basically anything without you helping via Explorer, and you can still "play spells" via Pod chains / or just having a Carpet.
-) I dislike the Deathrite Shamans, but I appreciate that there's only so many reasonable 1-drops that can be played. I would probably consider shaving 1 Deathrite and run it as a 2-of. 6 1-drops+a questionable number of Zeniths should be sufficient to get Pod chains started.
-) The creature base needs refining. Varolz nonbos hard with Shadowborn Demon, but is decent with Thrun. The problem that Varolz has in this deck is that there isn't any really outstanding option to scavenge on to. Yes, you have Thrun -- but Thrun doesn't have any kind of evasion. He's not Sigarda. I mean, you can just Abyss them every turn with a huge Thrun, and maybe that's good enough.
-) There are two different versions here, I think. There's an aggro version, and a more value-control oriented version with a "combo" finish via Deadeye. It's up to you which way you want to go with the deck, obviously, but I think that trying to straddle the line in the middle is only going to end in disappointment.
---------> if you want to go aggro, consider Strangleroot Geist, Kitchen Finks, Varolz, Clique, Desecration Demon and/or Abyssal Persecutor.
---------> if you want to go value, consider Viridian Emissary, Sea Gate Oracle, Venser SS, Solemn Simulacrum, Deadeye/Zegana/Mimic as possible 6s
---------> either way, I would definitely run Glen Elendra Archmage as probably a 2-of. She seems very good right now.
---------> weird observations, most of which are probably too cute. With a sac outlet (Varolz?) Perilous Myr + Havengul Lich may be possible. Expensive, but possible. Myr Enforcer and Allosaurous Rider both Pod into Griselbrand, and are fairly cheatable. I seem to remember that we had some Pod chain with Corpse Connoisseur figured out, but I can't remember what the other half was. You could enable the Melira combo without wasting a slot on Melira, if you wanted to run Master Biomancer. Biomancer still isn't a GREAT card, but it's less dead than Melira and still turns on the combo. Is Heartless a possible consideration? Heartless + Explorer gives a very consistent ramp package, and could enable ludicrously fast Wurmcoils.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
What are people's strategy with BGU/BGW/BG Nic Fit against UWx Miracles/blue control in general?
Zach and I ran BUG at SCG Baltimore and didn't have Carpet of Flowers in our sideboard. We both lost miserably to Miracles. Zach had an active Birthing Pod out against his UW opponent and it still didn't do much because UW had a critical mass of lands out--Thrun, the Last Troll and Grave Titan all ate a Terminus. If you're doing land go against UW Miracles and they have one of their four Sensei's Divining Top out you lose.
Envelop and Vendilion Clique fight the miracle cards and stall the game out. Scapeshift is decent but that involves an entirely different strategy.
Landstill also has the same strategy as UWx Miracles. I often pilot Landstill and tested a lot against Nic Fit. Every time my opponent's Veteran Explorer trigger resolved I won. If I hit a critical mass of lands I won.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TakeYourTime
What are people's strategy with BGU/BGW/BG Nic Fit against UWx Miracles/blue control in general?
Zach and I ran BUG at SCG Baltimore and didn't have
Carpet of Flowers in our sideboard. We both lost miserably to Miracles. Zach had an active
Birthing Pod out against his UW opponent and it still didn't do much because UW had a critical mass of lands out--
Thrun, the Last Troll and
Grave Titan all ate a
Terminus. If you're doing land go against UW Miracles and they have one of their four
Sensei's Divining Top out you lose.
Envelop and
Vendilion Clique fight the miracle cards and stall the game out.
Scapeshift is decent but that involves an entirely different strategy.
Landstill also has the same strategy as UWx Miracles. I often pilot Landstill and tested a lot against Nic Fit. Every time my opponent's
Veteran Explorer trigger resolved I won. If I hit a critical mass of lands I won.
Well you've already identified one key problem (not running Carpet of Flowers). There's literal 0 reason to over-commit Thrun AND Grave Titan vs Miracles -- you're asking to get swept. Play one, maybe two threats at a time -- but if you run out 2 threats, make sure they aren't both top-drawers. They sweep, you play another one. They sweep, you play another one. Etc. Thragtusk is brilliant at this, because he leaves behind a friend even if they sweep. Getting an onboard Deed is critical. Don't blow it to deal with Counterbalance or such bs -- just hold it for Entreat, or to stop their combo if they run it. Cranially Extracting Jace is important; if you aren't running Cranial Extraction / Slaughter Games / etc, that's a problem. Combat planeswalkers (Garruk, Sorin, Elspeth) are all quite good, too.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
@Arian:
- My suggested list is a bit light on win conditions but I don't think you need a combo card that is terrible on its own to win.
- Schulzchop was very satisfied with Grave Titan in his tournament report. The matchups in which I would prefer Primeval Titan are UW Control decks. My plan is that with all the card advantage that Pod generates you should be able to win G1 against UW Control decks and for G2 you have the choice of Notion Thief, Clique, Wickerbough Elder, Spellbombs and a few counters for the lategame.
It is still not really tested yet so maybe it does need a real recursion engine like Twin Towers . So yeah, Primeval Titan with Twin Towers could be what the deck needs, that sounds convincing to me (especially considering TakeYourTime's input).
- The Pod chain is "sac Rector into Pod and get Connoisseur and Nightmare" which allows you to put any creature in your deck into play, but with the printing of Shaman and Decay (on Nightmare with Connoisseur trigger on stack) that is not really viable anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TakeYourTime
What are people's strategy with BGU/BGW/BG Nic Fit against UWx Miracles/blue control in general?
Zach and I ran BUG at SCG Baltimore and didn't have
Carpet of Flowers in our sideboard. We both lost miserably to Miracles. Zach had an active
Birthing Pod out against his UW opponent and it still didn't do much because UW had a critical mass of lands out--
Thrun, the Last Troll and
Grave Titan all ate a
Terminus. If you're doing land go against UW Miracles and they have one of their four
Sensei's Divining Top out you lose.
Envelop and
Vendilion Clique fight the miracle cards and stall the game out.
Scapeshift is decent but that involves an entirely different strategy.
Landstill also has the same strategy as UWx Miracles. I often pilot Landstill and tested a lot against Nic Fit. Every time my opponent's
Veteran Explorer trigger resolved I won. If I hit a critical mass of lands I won.
The first thing you need against Jace ... is a plan against Jace.
My signature BUG list has its own 4 Jaces to match theirs, 4 Decays to stop Counterbalance and a Thrun and Titan+Twin Towers for the late game. You deal with all their threats, they can't deal with yours, that's the plan.
The Punishing list has 4 Tops to match their Top, 4 Fire-4 Grove to control their Jace and Thrun-Run for killing them (it only plays 2 Decays MD so you might get CB locked in G1 but that is a conscious risk I take). From the SB you get 2 more Decays to stop CB and RiP, 4 Red Blasts to fight Jace on the stack and 2 Slaughter Games to get rid of Jace or Entreat.
Both lists have 3 Deeds to stop big Entreats in the late game. They also have 3 extra Discard spells and very importantly 3 Liliana to punish them for playing DrawGo. An early Liliana is a nightmare for them because they can't let her ultimate happen but they also have a very hard time pressuring her or dealing with her otherwise.
For GB and GBw decks, like I said in the OP, straight GB and GBw control simply can't beat a Jace TMS and therefore these color combinations are not viable (at least until some new list comes up that deals with this weakness). Sigarda alone is not enough.
In Pod lists, the plan to match Jace's card advantage with Pod is mentioned above, but as I said this is simple theorycrafting and maybe not enough. Twin Towers could be what it needs, because using Terminus on Primeval Titan is far less good for them than using it on Grave Titan.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TakeYourTime
Landstill also has the same strategy as UWx Miracles. I often pilot Landstill and tested a lot against Nic Fit. Every time my opponent's
Veteran Explorer trigger resolved I won. If I hit a critical mass of lands I won.
This is why you have carpet of flowers to bring in instead of Explorer: so you stop ramping blue control decks up to Jaces.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
I have a lot of experience with Nic Fit against Miracle and there is one simple thing you must do in order to bring the matchup to parity:
Side out all your explorers and therapies.
If you have Carpets, Deathrites, and/or targeted discard, they will all do a better job than Explorer and Therapy. Therapies usually whiff against Miracles because they have access to Brainstorm and Jace really early in terms of control mirrors. Top also makes it useless as they will be playing from the top of their deck rather than their hand. Triggering Explorer is also terrible because they get to use the lands first and it brings them closer to a protected Jace or a lethal Entreat, which is usually enough to win. My most successful lists against Miracle were by far BUG and GBr Wish. BUG has its own Jace and more hard counters in the side than Miracle has across the board (4 Negate, 4 FoW). Unlike other versions of Nic Fit, BUG is actually the control deck and Miracle becomes the aggressor. With GBr Wish, you have access to Slaughter Games and Tsunami mainboard which will significantly turn the game in your favor. Slaughtering Jaces means that they will never get that comfortable grasp over the game where they can counter every relevant spell you play, and Tsunami usually means that they cannot rebuild their manabase because they don't have enough lands left. Having REB postboard is a good way to prevent CB and Jace from hitting the board while it also give you some say against counterspells. Thrun is my main GSZ target and resolving a Prime Titan for 2 Treetops is as devastating for them as them Entreating for 3 is for us.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TakeYourTime
What are people's strategy with BGU/BGW/BG Nic Fit against UWx Miracles/blue control in general?
Zach and I ran BUG at SCG Baltimore and didn't have
Carpet of Flowers in our sideboard. We both lost miserably to Miracles. Zach had an active
Birthing Pod out against his UW opponent and it still didn't do much because UW had a critical mass of lands out--
Thrun, the Last Troll and
Grave Titan all ate a
Terminus. If you're doing land go against UW Miracles and they have one of their four
Sensei's Divining Top out you lose.
Envelop and
Vendilion Clique fight the miracle cards and stall the game out.
Scapeshift is decent but that involves an entirely different strategy.
Landstill also has the same strategy as UWx Miracles. I often pilot Landstill and tested a lot against Nic Fit. Every time my opponent's
Veteran Explorer trigger resolved I won. If I hit a critical mass of lands I won.
Against those decks 98% of the time offing an explorer is a mistake. Side out 3, and ideally bring in carpets.
The best weapon against draw go decks is planewalkers. 1-of detention sphere and countermagic are their only real answers to walkers. Jace and lily are not bad either. Garruk Primal Hunter is the best. My BUG list runs 1-2 garruk, 3 lily, 3 jace and it gives control a much harder time.
Also, prime titan into 2 treetops, 2 towers, or 2 tarpits is way better than grave titan and he is GSZ-able. Dont over commit and animate both lands and swing with titan when they have a top out and they will have really hard time clearing the board out.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
I don't like siding out all Explorers and all Therapies for all versions. Obviously Scapeshift wants to keep them, but I do like to keep 2-3 Explorers and 2-3 Therapies in against Miracles with BUG and Punishing, too, unless I play against the RiP/Helm version. If my plan was to outcontrol them in G1, then I don't see a reason to not do the same thing in G2 and G3, too.
Without any Explorers I find my draws to become inconsistent because early GSZs get terrible and the deck is not designed to rely on land drops exclusively. That's just my experience with my Fire and BUG lists, this is not necessarily true for every version of these decks.
