Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seilaquem
I c your point, but the main reason I loved the cabal ritual plan is the come back ad nauseam it enables. In several grindy matches i played, i was only made possible to return to the game via 2 mana, cabal ritual ad nauseam w/ no other cards in hand. So I would say, in that sense, cabal ritual improved my Ad nauseam kills, although it worsens the AN in the argument you just did.
You could just drop you increased number of lands and cast AN off those as well while playing off the top in grindy matchups. CR is iffy with Chrome Moxen and Rainbow Lands and the deck is mana flooded often enough. I feel that more IMS not only improve mulligans and grindy matches but also adress the whole Daze/Wasteland issue the deck has since ages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
You are VERY incorrect:
TES needs both Red and Black initial mana to go off, but also Blue for cantrips and Green for sideboard Decay and Swarm. While playing less lands than ANT. ANT only needs Black as initial mana to go off. It can use LED to make red for Past in Flames, so for ANT the Blue and Black mana are most critical. Red initial mana is very rarely needed for ANT. So TES has more colour requirements to meet with only 12 lands. That's nearly impossible with only fetch and duals, let alone basics.
Lem has been explaining this four times now. And if you don't believe us, make a 12 land mana base for TES with four colours, duals, basics and fetch lands, and play a couple of goldfish games. You will disprove your own point within 15 minutes, I guarantee it.
Thanks for summing it up ... once more ;)
I did not count how many times the topic occured (and I have commented on it) since the shift to all-discard, but I remember that I adressed the point of Gemstones in this very thread one or two times right after the shift away from Silence and the topic pops up every few pages.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
I really don't feel we need to improve the Past in Flames kill. We can easily win without even using it. We didn't need it before it was printed, and what new cards were printed that made us need it now? Delver of Secrets? Deathrite Shaman? Not those. Maybe Terminus and the prevalence of -1/-1 sweepers make Empty the Warrens worse, but I really don't think this should force us to switch to a weird ANTish list. It makes more sense to me to actually choose between the two, taking into account the way the meta develops.
This is incredibly narrow thinking. Why do we need guns? We have bow and arrows!
It's about maximizing our chances of winning. Past in Flames is our tertiary kill, not our first, not even our second. Cabal Ritual is in there for other reasons as well.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
It's about maximizing our chances of winning. Past in Flames is our tertiary kill, not our first, not even our second. Cabal Ritual is in there for other reasons as well.
Please name all your reasons then. Improving our third engine at the cost of our first doesn't even look like narrow thinking. It looks plain wrong. I have been following your innovations with great interest, and seldomly did I disagree with your decisions, so please, make me a believer.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Please name all your reasons then. Improving our third engine at the cost of our first doesn't even look like narrow thinking. It looks plain wrong. I have been following your innovations with great interest, and seldomly did I disagree with your decisions, so please, make me a believer.
I'll take a stab at converting you:
Cabal Ritual can give you enough mana to go Wish -> Tutor -> Nauseam all in one go, so we can effectively enjoy more copies of Ad Nauseam, sounds like an improvement. 1 fewer Chrome Mox does make the flips off Ad Nauseam worse, but then you can get enough front-end mana off Cabal Rit that you don't need as many IMS (read: Chrome Mox) post Ad Nauseam.
By running two copies each of Chrome Mox and Cabal Rit, we have 20 mana rituals/rocks for impressive explosiveness, exceptional Ad Nauseams compared to ANT due to the sheer amount of mana we can get before or after, and we can double on Cabal Rit with spare Tutors (you can double Chrome Moxen too, I guess). While a t1 or t2 Ad Nauseam is understandably worse, the improvement to midgame Ad Nauseams keeps our primary win condition strong while making Past in Flames more robust by decreasing the nonbo density of artifact mana in out PiF lines.
I will be testing this configuration on my stream, either tonight or next week, if anyone wants to see how this builds works out on MTGO.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Please name all your reasons then. Improving our third engine at the cost of our first doesn't even look like narrow thinking. It looks plain wrong. I have been following your innovations with great interest, and seldomly did I disagree with your decisions, so please, make me a believer.
Bryant did list these earlier, namely more mana floating post-AdNaus and making Wish able to get AdNaus via the SBed IT.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davelin
Bryant did list these earlier, namely more mana floating post-AdNaus and making Wish able to get AdNaus via the SBed IT.
There are still 3 issues you have to have in mind:
1) you have to generate at least 9 mana to Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam which is an insane amount of mana to generate off 6 cards in your hand (the 7th being Wish) or
2) you have to waste a whole turn to Wish for infernal and pass the turn to have the 7-mana-combo option
3) you have to gain thres.hold first so you can generate enough mana to chain wish into infernal into Ad Nauseam or float mana into the 5cc instant. Achieving this with less fetches and cantrips isn't easy and takes time; time your opponent might uses to deal damage which leaves you with PIF instead of AN, a route you can also pick if you double your RoF's/DR's with 4 infernals maindeck.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
There are still 3 issues you have to have in mind:
1) you have to generate at least 9 mana to Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam which is an insane amount of mana to generate off 6 cards in your hand (the 7th being Wish) or
2) you have to waste a whole turn to Wish for infernal and pass the turn to have the 7-mana-combo option
3) you have to gain thres.hold first so you can generate enough mana to chain wish into infernal into Ad Nauseam or float mana into the 5cc instant. Achieving this with less fetches and cantrips isn't easy and takes time; time your opponent might uses to deal damage which leaves you with PIF instead of AN, a route you can also pick if you double your RoF's/DR's with 4 infernals maindeck.
I don't disagree and why I'm not 100% behind the CRit plan, I was just reiterating how CRit still augments the main plan. I do like the idea of having IT in the SB for the longer games against Blue, that's a change I'll probably adopt and test out more regardless of how CRit works out.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davelin
I don't disagree and why I'm not 100% behind the CRit plan, I was just reiterating how CRit still augments the main plan. I do like the idea of having IT in the SB for the longer games against Blue, that's a change I'll probably adopt and test out more regardless of how CRit works out.
For the longer games against blue, you usually sided out an Infernal regardless for more hate. The question is if you really want less Infernals for game 1's.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
There are still 3 issues you have to have in mind:
1) you have to generate at least 9 mana to Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam which is an insane amount of mana to generate off 6 cards in your hand (the 7th being Wish) or
2) you have to waste a whole turn to Wish for infernal and pass the turn to have the 7-mana-combo option
3) you have to gain thres.hold first so you can generate enough mana to chain wish into infernal into Ad Nauseam or float mana into the 5cc instant. Achieving this with less fetches and cantrips isn't easy and takes time; time your opponent might uses to deal damage which leaves you with PIF instead of AN, a route you can also pick if you double your RoF's/DR's with 4 infernals maindeck.
In a deck with ten ritual effects as well as ten mana rocks generating nine mana isn't as difficult as it would seem. I do it all the time. In practice, it hasn't been an issue at all. Not to mention having the Infernal in the sideboard makes a pair of Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Wish even better as it's an additional storm before the Goblins come down.
Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.
Asthereal - I've stated my thoughts through the last five pages of this thread repeatedly – hell, most of it is probably on this page. I shouldn't need to make a list for you.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
In a deck with ten ritual effects as well as ten mana rocks generating nine mana isn't as difficult as it would seem. I do it all the time. In practice, it hasn't been an issue at all. Not to mention having the Infernal in the sideboard makes a pair of Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Wish even better as it's an additional storm before the Goblins come down.
Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.
Asthereal - I've stated my thoughts through the last five pages of this thread repeatedly – hell, most of it is probably on this page. I shouldn't need to make a list for you.
Byant, have you thought about inlcuding a Rhystic Tutor to the main? Totor into Ad Nauseam from the side sounds promising.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.
Bryant, I respect you and all the work you have put into this deck. It is your design and you have been rocking it for years on end, but I must drop this one on you: if you rock TES and want to plan three turns ahead, you are rocking the wrong deck. This deck runs 12 lands, none of which basic, in a meta where the most played card is Wasteland. The second most popular deck actually runs that, plus hand disruption and counterspells. Hatebear.dec is a contender in the meta for quite some time now, rocking a combination of hate bears and mana denial. If you want to plan three turns ahead, and more over, if you want to rock the very powerful card Cabal Ritual and make it work for the best, you need to switch to ANT. ANT has a mana base that supports three turn plans, and that whole deck combines better with Cabal Ritual. Heck, if you want to plan three turns ahead and have the best chance at winning through whatever hate has slipped your net, you should be rocking Doomsday.
I know you have been putting up decent results with this new setup lately, but we should not forget that your play skill and deep knowledge of the mechanics of this deck will compensate immensely for a suboptimal deck list. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you want to play Storm more cautiously, more conservatively, more consistently, and with the higher power level of the Cabal Rituals and the improved Past in Flames kill, you must see you are turning away from the "No guts, no glory" superfast combo list you once designed.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
In a deck with ten ritual effects as well as ten mana rocks generating nine mana isn't as difficult as it would seem. I do it all the time. In practice, it hasn't been an issue at all. Not to mention having the Infernal in the sideboard makes a pair of Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Wish even better as it's an additional storm before the Goblins come down.
Generating Threshold has yet to be something difficult to do especially if you're planning your turns ahead, if you open with a Gemstone Mine and a Cabal Ritual plan on removing that last counter on turn three.
Asthereal - I've stated my thoughts through the last five pages of this thread repeatedly – hell, most of it is probably on this page. I shouldn't need to make a list for you.
First of all I have to say that I strongly disagree on playing less than 4 I.T, I 100% agree with Asthereal ,F.Fortune ,Bahamut and Lem,
you'd better play Griselbrand Engine then....
I believe that the strength of and ANT deck is the amount of mana you invest to cast A.N. - 7 mana is just the nuts!, by doing B.W.->I.T. in the same turn you're using an engine which needs 9 mana, so this is not mana efficient and neither fast. a TES player just dont need this, even the Timo Shuneman list play 4 I.T and 3 B.Wish... try to include a Grim Tutor in side man then!
What we want to focus is to get the I.T. plus LED plus D.R. and a couple of lands, by doing this we are generating a card advantage which is not comparable to other decks in legacy
For example the Doomsday piles which are the less mana efficient are the ones that makes the deck so good, you just need for some piles to work just 1 blue mana and 3 black and a cantrip, this is the strength of the deck. and extrapolating this to TES is the same concept...
I just don't want to convice anyone, but having less than 4 I.T in and A.N deck is just an error and it is even worse in the deck which gets the most of A.N. card... you just take out for the 1st games a card which defines the deck.
Related to the argument to increase the strength of Pif Engine is just false... For PiF to work you need another Business spell, taking out 1 Business spell you just get worse PiF engine...
I wont go back to this discussion again but I wanted to expose my opinion related. Sure each has its own opinion, but by here there are phisicians, mathstematicals and programmers, which should agree on these main concepts
Also abut 3 C.Moxen... well prefer to not to expose my opinion... you seems to play more and more the Timo Shuneman List... it seems that his ideas were much more advanced, now I try to prepare a tournament and now we play full discard I could handle more decks and maybe win and maybe state my deck as The TES deck - sure it will contain 3 C.Mox and 4 I.Tutor main....
at least the slot about 1 C.Rit makes sense to take out 1 C.Mox...
just a opinion, I'm hippie
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I feel like some people don't understand that this deck is adapting the the meta. Bryant's list did remain almost the same for quite a while but the format isn't the same as it was a year ago.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
TES is not a dominant force in the meta. If it was an ends-all beats-all deck then more people would run it and it would place more often in tournaments. Obviously if we want this deck to be a tournament factor that we think it can be, something needs to change with the list in some sort of way to deal with the current meta. With that being the case, I see no issue with testing different set ups and seeing what we can do to improve both consistency, power, and interacting with hate. While I don't think I'll go in the same direction as everything that Bryant is testing, it has merit. ANT is something that top 8s large tournaments here and there. They are obviously doing something (whether it is quantity of players, quality of players, or the deck itself) that is making it have more of a presence and post better results. While you guys may disagree with changes here or there, I appreciate others taking the time and effort to do so in order to improve the overall deck. No reason to hate on someone because you disagree.
Bryant always tweaks his deck and then tweaks it again based on whether he likes or dislikes the changes, this is not new.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay_Gatz
I feel like some people don't understand that this deck is adapting the the meta. Bryant's list did remain almost the same for quite a while but the format isn't the same as it was a year ago.
Oh dear. How can you say that? Of course we understand. Some here just disagree with the changes.
I disagree with the changes, because the changes are making the deck work like a worse version of ANT.
The changes so far:
- Less Rainbow lands, more fetch and duals
- Cutting Silence/Chant effects for Discard
- Addition of Cabal Ritual
- Playing one business spell less
What is left? Maybe this:
- Noticing the power level of Cabal Ritual exceeds that of Rite of Flame, going for the full set of CR's and cutting the Rites
- Noticing the slower game plan of Past in Flames asks for a few lands more, preferably Fetch because it helps our cantrips and Threshold
- Noticing the lands get Wasted, so adding Basics
And where does that leave us? With a copy of Wish ANT, like the already mentioned Shunemann list.
I don't mean to insult anyone (which I feel I have to repeat with every post, but people still seem to think otherwise) but I disagree with the changes, simply because we are moving into a direction that isn't a deck tuning anymore. We are essentially moving to a different deck. All I am saying is that if we want all that, we should switch decks and not turn this lovely deck into something it is not. Some changes are fine, but I really feel the Cabal Ritual plan is taking this over the top. Supporting that card to the fullest requires us to essentially run an ANT shell.
Maybe in the current meta ANT is better. Fine, we can live with that. In six months time things can all be turned around.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
How useful would putting a Grim Tutor in the side be while playing 4 IT main?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
The bit about one less business spell really is only a half truth and honestly if you don't like it then play the 4th tutor main. In a very large percentage of matches I side out a tutor so basically this is just pre-boarding in a way that works very well with the big rituals.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
How useful would putting a Grim Tutor in the side be while playing 4 IT main?
that was my idea but also was a joke.!!
please don't do that.
@Jay_Gatz: About this: I feel like some people don't understand that this deck is adapting the the meta. Bryant's list did remain almost the same for quite a while but the format isn't the same as it was a year ago.
Sure. Jay sure. TES hadn't adapted to my meta until Discard was played instead of silence. that is the truth. I've had success with every flavours of storm deck in my meta except with TES and not because of skill, just becauase of Silece and C.Mox - simple. this is something I've always known, but I dont play the deck because of its effectivenesss, becuase I just like it, now we play discard I 've seen opportunities of winning some tournament,
I absolutly know that I can win tournaments with ANT, TNT or DDFT decks an even easily! and now with TES with discard, but I prefer other kind of taste. the TES taste. sure C.Mox is bad becuase it is card disadvantage but makes the deck be as versatile and as Lem said: "TES can disgregate whatever deck with surgical precission.", now with 2 C.M and 3 I.T you can not.
I suggest to to play the TNT approach instead of including Rituals to a deck which wants to win before 3rd turn...
well, Last post related to this discussion, what I need to do is win some great tournament and demosntrate this...
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Oh dear. How can you say that? Of course we understand. Some here just disagree with the changes.
I disagree with the changes, because the changes are making the deck work like a worse version of ANT.
The changes so far:
- Less Rainbow lands, more fetch and duals
- Cutting Silence/Chant effects for Discard
- Addition of Cabal Ritual
- Playing one business spell less
What is left? Maybe this:
- Noticing the power level of Cabal Ritual exceeds that of Rite of Flame, going for the full set of CR's and cutting the Rites
- Noticing the slower game plan of Past in Flames asks for a few lands more, preferably Fetch because it helps our cantrips and Threshold
- Noticing the lands get Wasted, so adding Basics
And where does that leave us? With a copy of Wish ANT, like the already mentioned Shunemann list.
I don't mean to insult anyone (which I feel I have to repeat with every post, but people still seem to think otherwise) but I disagree with the changes, simply because we are moving into a direction that isn't a deck tuning anymore. We are essentially moving to a different deck. All I am saying is that if we want all that, we should switch decks and not turn this lovely deck into something it is not. Some changes are fine, but I really feel the Cabal Ritual plan is taking this over the top. Supporting that card to the fullest requires us to essentially run an ANT shell.
Maybe in the current meta ANT is better. Fine, we can live with that. In six months time things can all be turned around.
I see your point here. But i don't think we are moving to a different deck. It's just trying to adapt to the meta.
cause the fact is, there are 2 features that still make TES the deck we play:
- the rite of flames chain to a fast empty the warrens
- no tendrils nor past in flames for a better ad nauseam
I do agree the deck is moving closer the the ANT playstyle, but the fast plays are still available. besides, you can use the sideboard to approach the best form to play, depending on which deck you are facing. Lately, i have been going all-in on the pseudo ant (boarding in past in flames and tendrils) vs. burn and cutting the ad nauseam out. not sure if thats the correct line to play, but it has been working fine for me.
this deck has not become Shunemann ANT just yet. it is just looks very similar, to the untrained eyes =P (i mean, for god's sake, everyone in my meta still thinks I play ANT, and asks me whats the difference u.u'')
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
How useful would putting a Grim Tutor in the side be while playing 4 IT main?
You mean paying 10 mana and 3 life to grab and cast AN? For my taste the whole extension of the AN plan makes the deck slower game 1 (no Verdict if that is THAT bad in the current metagame) while focusing maybe too much on AN which already isn't too hot in the current Delver metagame. Therefore, I'm not too fond of removing options for fast EtW/AN for the sake of the lategame during game 1 as cutting Mox and Infernal would indicate. Just my personal taste.
