[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Nidd

To be honest, when does Lightning Bolt kill a Goyf? land and creature isn't hard to come by, so he's 2/3 - if you aim your Bolt at him, he survives. Sure, you can use Bolt in conjunction with your creatures, but is that worth the tradeoff of Lightning Bolt reducing your Goblin count?

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Also, I have killed lots Goyfs with Bolts. It does happen often in the beginning of the game.
I have also played several games testing Fanatic/Tartfire/Bolt, when I used to play them. Bolt is just better. Revealing Tartfire from a Ringleader is usually useless, same as Mogg Fanatic, that didn't mattered at all. Also, 2 Bolt in the face is 6dmg. Thats a huge reach we can often get out of it, in MU's we don't have to burn down creatures.
Then again, today I play none of those cards...

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Originally Posted by Hashinator89

.. but I'm still not beating Zoo. Is MWM + Gempalm + Perish still the best way too go?

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With your MB, coupled with the SB you run, you should be able to beat Zoo easily...

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Also, I have killed lots Goyfs with Bolts. It does happen often in the beginning of the game.

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Yeah I agree in the 1st 2 turns its usually lands and instants in the graveyard. So the extra Lightning Bolt doesnt matter.

@Nidd: But to clarify my statement I wasn't advocating Lightning Bolt I just wanted to point out that Tarfire is not good enough.

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Originally Posted by Hashinator89

So I've been playing a list with 4 MD Stingscourger and absolutely love it:

3 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 AEther Vial
1 Warren Wierding

3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warren Wierding

I went 4-2 two weeks ago, beating Merfolk, Rb Mirror, Bant Countertop and Enchantress, and only losing to Zoo and Dredge. I thought having Wort would be nice to recur Stingscourger, but with 8 pieces of removal, I feel like Siege-Gang number 3 is better. Having Vial at 2 that can actually do stuff has been great, but I'm still not beating Zoo. Is MWM + Gempalm + Perish still the best way too go?

With the lack of Reanimator and the presence of Survival Madness, I'd probably cut stuff for 3 Extirpate, possibly Wierdings. With Storm not even being 10% of the last 2 SCG Open's, I feel like I'd cut storm hate. In fact, I would definitely run Mindbreak Trap of Thorn anyday, expecially since so much of Storm is Belcher anymore.

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Looks like a pretty solid list, I like the idea of running 4 Stingscourgers, although it seems that it didn't really help in the Dredge and Zoo matchup.
As for those matchups: Zoo will remain a tough opponent. Zoo is that one Aggro deck, that wins against all other aggro decks and the best cards against it will hit you too. Perish might be an option.
Against Dredge you can't expect to win anything without dedicated Graveyard hate in the sideboard. Relying on MWM and Stingscourger to remove their Bridges won't help a lot.

Hey,
Here's my Rb list that I've been tinkering around with. Mine's a pretty aggro-heavy combo-light meta, so I run 4 WW's and Gempalms (considering going down to 3 to put Stingscourger MD..) Sideboard's new and untested, still working on it.

Feedback greatly appreciated!



Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Warren Instigator
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Warren Weirding

Land
4 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


SB:
1 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Earwig Squad
4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter





* Considering running more Instigators.
* -1 Gempalm for +1 Stingscourger?
* How is Thoughtseize sb?
* In what matchups would Mogg War Marshal be more useful than something else I'm running maindeck? I like his synergy with Gempalm, but his utility alone seems a little limited.

Guys, this thread has become kinda boring recently.
We are only commenting tons of decklists over and over again.
Does anyone have a suggestion what "hot topic" we can discuss next? I really enjoyed the discussions about combo- and graveyard hat a while ago and I want to go deep in some other - new - topic now.
btw. Haven't read much from FoulQ last time, does anybody know why?

btw.: Solid list, Caspid. I'd only think about cutting rishadan Port, cause you got a rather high number of creatures with RR and RB manacosts - that might be a problem.

maybe ways to beat vengevine/ u/g madness/ survival?

that deck is getting really popular.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

maybe ways to beat vengevine/ u/g madness/ survival?

that deck is getting really popular.

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All sorts of Gy hate, Pithing Needle

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Guys, this thread has become kinda boring recently.
We are only commenting tons of decklists over and over again.

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No! We need another 20 pages questioning the number of stingers, chieftans, incinerators, war marshalls, and instigators. And another 20 pages asking if mono red is better than wierding splash. And then another 20 pages on if green splash works.

Despite the fact that all these variations have won, there *must* be a universally correct answer! Only through endless back and forth regurgitation of the same points can we arrive at this vaunted goal.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Guys, this thread has become kinda boring recently.
We are only commenting tons of decklists over and over again.
Does anyone have a suggestion what "hot topic" we can discuss next? I really enjoyed the discussions about combo- and graveyard hat a while ago and I want to go deep in some other - new - topic now.
btw. Haven't read much from FoulQ last time, does anybody know why?

btw.: Solid list, Caspid. I'd only think about cutting rishadan Port, cause you got a rather high number of creatures with RR and RB manacosts - that might be a problem.

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I agree. There's only so much good that can come from debating specific cards. I've seen lists with and without Instigators, War Marshalls, Chieftains, Stingscourgers, Weirdings, etc. top eight. There is no perfect deck.

At this point, I'm mostly concerned about learning how to play the deck better. One issue on which I've seen little discussion is mulliganing decisions. Let's say that you are on the play with Mono-red against an unknown opponent and your starting hand is MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, PILEDRIVER, WARCHIEF, MATRON, SIEGE-GANG. For the longest time, I would have kept this hand without thinking about it. "I've got plenty of lands and goblins, so I'm good." Then, I heard a goblin player say that it is best to mull starting hands that don't allow you to cast a turn one Vial or Lackey. Under that philsophy, you should muck the above hand because it is too slow. Going down a card might be the right move, because goblin decks generally need an explosive start to be competitive. The argument is that mulling aggresively is the key to having more success with goblins. I'd like to know what other peoples thoughts are on this issue.

@ Justin: I would definitely mulligan that hand. They most likely will have removal for your t3 warchief and then you'll be left with a piledriver, a matron that will set you back a turn, and of course SGC and some other things by then.

MOST hands need lackey/vial. However fairly aggressive instigator hands are fine too, if you play him. This would include hands that are aggressive but have a ringleader/SGC as a backup plan for the assumed instigator death. Add a tricky weirding or gempalm and maybe he will connect.

There are some other hands that don't need any of the three. It's matchup dependent though, hands where you have a matron/ringleader overload and plan on that as your victory route anyways, and further mulliganing is more dangerous (especially if you splash or play 4port/4waste and are playing against mana denial + control deck like a rock shell or something).

@ GoboLord: I started up school again which takes up a lot of time. I also haven't been playing magic as much because I am a very poor college student and need the money to spend on liquor and women and some other habits, unfortunately, $15 for a large tournament or a 1.75. Plus I've become very disillusioned with other formats so I have left the game. I don't have the same base of knowledge as I used to because I haven't been playing competitively so I try to keep my posts on the things I really feel qualified to post on.

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Originally Posted by Justin

I agree. There's only so much good that can come from debating specific cards. I've seen lists with and without Instigators, War Marshalls, Chieftains, Stingscourgers, Weirdings, etc. top eight. There is no perfect deck.

At this point, I'm mostly concerned about learning how to play the deck better. One issue on which I've seen little discussion is mulliganing decisions. Let's say that you are on the play with Mono-red against an unknown opponent and your starting hand is MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, MOUNTAIN, PILEDRIVER, WARCHIEF, MATRON, SIEGE-GANG. For the longest time, I would have kept this hand without thinking about it. "I've got plenty of lands and goblins, so I'm good." Then, I heard a goblin player say that it is best to mull starting hands that don't allow you to cast a turn one Vial or Lackey. Under that philsophy, you should muck the above hand because it is too slow. Going down a card might be the right move, because goblin decks generally need an explosive start to be competitive. The argument is that mulling aggresively is the key to having more success with goblins. I'd like to know what other peoples thoughts are on this issue.

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Yes! This is exactly the discussion that i was going to suggest we talk about.

Anyways, I usually do mull a hand that does not have a first turn drop unless i am on the play and i have Mogg War Marshall and plenty of three drops in my hand. MWM can stall for a few turns early game, allowing you to have time to drop your Warchiefs and Matrons

Say I'm new and missed the first 131 pages of in-depth single card discussion. Where can I find a summary of the pros/cons to certain choices? Something like a primer that goes over matchups, sideboard, etc?

Along with everything else, I'm still learning how to mulligan. So far, a few questions I ask when deciding when to keep a hand (along with usually making sure I have a Vial and/or Lackey):
* Do I have a good balance of threats and answers?
* If they remove Lackey or counter Vial, do I have a T2 play?
* Can I get rid of a blocker or early beats?
* Can I play control if I need to?

That's a 100% mull hand. Unless you're playing against no-one, that deck is dead against even good matchups. While you don't ALWAYS mull non-Lackey/Vial hands, it's a good rule to go by for a beginner. Depends on the rest of the hand, play/draw, matchup you might be against, etc.

As for those questions, it's hard to figure out. Goblins is one of the harder creature based decks to play in Legacy because of the many roles in a many you can take. You can race, you can play a trading game and gain advantage through Ringleader, the lines of play/mana use are important, Goblin Matron makes it hard.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

@ GoboLord: I started up school again which takes up a lot of time. I also haven't been playing magic as much because I am a very poor college student and need the money to spend on liquor and women and some other habits, unfortunately, $15 for a large tournament or a 1.75. Plus I've become very disillusioned with other formats so I have left the game. I don't have the same base of knowledge as I used to because I haven't been playing competitively so I try to keep my posts on the things I really feel qualified to post on.

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Understand.
Then just leave the women at home - that probably consumes most of your money. :tongue:
Anyways, good to know that at least you are with us - though silently.

@ Justin:
My philosophy used to be the same: Mull 'till you got 1st-turn-Vial or Lackey. That's actually a good idea because your chances to draw either one are:
98% with without mulligan
84% with mull 6
69% with mull 5
55% with mull 4
Still I changed my mind on this issue. Now I consider hands with double Piledriver as rather keepable too. So are hand with lots of mana-denial if you are up against slow decks like Landstill. It's much like what FoulQ said.
For those reasons I'd mull the hand you just described.
Mulligan decisions is a topic I consider "hot", thanks for that suggestion. Let's go guys. There must be some more oppinions. Maybe someone has some sort of rules that he could share with us? :-D

@ Caspid:
Yeh that's what I thought about, too: a primer. Lately I worte one for a German forum, but I won't just translate and copy it into this forum because it's not very useful if only one person gives his oppinion o rather different topics.

What do you guys think of really writing a primer (more like a summary of recent discussions, as Caspid suggested) but dividing the work among some readers of this thread that feel like they could do it? I mean Nelis, ScatmanX and me are very active readers (and writers) in this thread. Plus I'd like to hear markbris' and FoulQ's oppinion on some topics as well.
I thought of splitting up this primer up into the following topics:

1. Lands: How many? Which ones? What Mana-Denial? When? Why?
2. There are 10-12 Slots MD that vary whereas Vial/Lackey/Piledriver/Matron/Warchief/Ringleader/SGC seem to be set. Someone should discuss how to fill those 10-12 remaining slots
3. Colors: What splashes are the best for what stuations/metas? Are they needed? Alternatives in other colors?
4. Graveyard hate: against what decks? What cards do best? how many slots should we spare on that?
5. Combo hate: against what decks? What cards do best? how many slots should we spare on that?
6. How to fill other open slots in SB: against what decks? What cards do best? how many slots should we spare on that?
7. Mulligan decisions

Maybe there are some other topics you'd like to discuss, just let me know. I'd also like to hear your oppinion on that.

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Originally Posted by Izor

Looks like a pretty solid list, I like the idea of running 4 Stingscourgers, although it seems that it didn't really help in the Dredge and Zoo matchup.
As for those matchups: Zoo will remain a tough opponent. Zoo is that one Aggro deck, that wins against all other aggro decks and the best cards against it will hit you too. Perish might be an option.
Against Dredge you can't expect to win anything without dedicated Graveyard hate in the sideboard. Relying on MWM and Stingscourger to remove their Bridges won't help a lot.

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Thanks for the help. I'm probably going to playtest this list some over the next two days before the Baltimore Open to see what happens:

2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

4 AEther Vial

3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 ?

I know something nice to discuss. How about splashing white so we can run Enlightened Tutor in our sideboard and thus have proper means to fight combo. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Nelis

I know something nice to discuss. How about splashing white so we can run Enlightened Tutor in our sideboard and thus have proper means to fight combo. Thoughts?

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If you put Enlitghened Tutor + Combo hate in board i'd rather und Combo Hate + Combo hate. See, the slots you spare on Tutor can be filled with just more combo hate. I don't think we have that many resonable targets for Tutor. Let me know if you think otherwise. Maybe you could build a Sideboard with ETutor and share it?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

What do you guys think of really writing a primer (more like a summary of recent discussions, as Caspid suggested) but dividing the work among some readers of this thread that feel like they could do it? I mean Nelis, ScatmanX and me are very active readers (and writers) in this thread. Plus I'd like to hear markbris' and FoulQ's oppinion on some topics as well.

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FolQ did wrote a primer of this deck a while back (last year I think), but it never got posted in the OP. I really don't know why, since it was a very good piece of work.
Now, with bannings, new decks and other things, it may be a little outdated, but is certainly way better than the one we currently have.
Maybe we could start from his, if he is willing to share, or allow me to do so, and continue.

@Nelis: I have actually thought about that, but never really put it together to test. A tutor SB (with StP maindeck) would be something like:
3-4 E. Tutor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Then if you want to have hate against specific decks, you could have:
1 Warmth (Burn)
1-2 Shared Triumph (Plague)
1 Aura of Silence (Enchantress and combo)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon or Relic of Progenitus (Dredge and Loam maybe...)
1 Ghostly Prison (Merfolk or Goblins)
anything you need actually...
Also, you have more disenchant effects....

@ ScatmanX: I don't mind it being shared at all, I'm all about trying to improve the thread, a good primer goes a long way in keeping the discussion on track. Anyone who has it can put it anywhere they want I don't mind.

I am also confused by why I was ignored by the administration. Originally I was asked to do it and did it promptly and emailed it to an admin. I tried to stay in contact but they just ignored me after that. Funny, they even asked somebody to write a primer IN this thread. The only logical conclusions is that my primer was either too long or the admins too busy with their real, 30-something lives. But let's face it, unless you are an exceptional player (and I would classify myself as good but not exceptional, but know how to make my points effectively in writing) or an east coast resident, your opinions will be less represented.

It is outdated, and for experienced goblins players you probably won't find that much info. But somebody looking to understand goblins (especially people playing other decks who want to test against us properly), it would be a good tool.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

It is outdated, and for experienced goblins players you probably won't find that much info. But somebody looking to understand goblins (especially people playing other decks who want to test against us properly), it would be a good tool.

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But thats exactly what a Primer needs to do.
I'll see if I manage to have a look at it next week then, and maybe send to an Admin or something.
If anyone is interested in reading it, pm me then.