[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by LoveAll

Hi guys, I follow this PRIMER to about 2 years since I started playing legacy, but never felt I had something to acresentar to you so far.

Sorry for my english, I live in Brazil.

I am running the GW version a 2 months and I like it a lot, but after seeing a lot of people talking about the RW version, I stopped to think of a NAYA version (WGR):

Version GW base lands
3 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 Cavern
4 Wasteland
6 Fetch
3 Karakas

Version NAYA base lands
3 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
2 Plateou
4 Wasteland
6 Fetch
3 Karakas

I still think the Mono White version too strong, however be is to use SPLASH, why not three colors in 75, using no more than two colors on 60?

In my head green SPLASH deck fixes a problem with Gadock, improving the match against elf, and other boring matches as Storm and Miracles.

Already the Splash Red improvement most matches since Legacy is full of dual lands.

What did think about my thoughts?

I will test this list here three days. What did you find?

Creatures (26)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vryn Wingmare
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
* 3 Magnus of the Moon
1 Silverblade Paladin (i love this card)

Lands (23)
3 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
4 Wasteland
6 Fetch c/ branco
2 Karakas

Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
* 3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Rest in Peace
1 Eidolon
1 Liege
* 1 Qasali
1 Priest
* 1 Krosan Grip
1 Councill
* 1 Sharpshooter
* 2 Sudden Demisse

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Hi LoveAll, welcome to the board.

I played Naya for a while, but with Recruiters, which I think are pretty important to the red splash, as they fill a huge hole in the deck. When I did play Naya, I felt like Gaddock was pretty unnecessary - if you play enough Ethersworns, you will have a 2 drop for Storm/Elves (or Sudden Demise, if you drew well). A protected Teeg used to be game over vs. Miracles but it's not now - they can pretty easily win with a Mentor. If you're playing red, Recruiter is so good in the Miracles matchup that you basically don't have to worry about shutting off Terminus. And lastly, DTT is gone, and that was one of Teeg's biggest selling points.

And if you're not playing Teeg, Pridemage and Grip are replaceable effects. There are green cards that don't have replaceable effects in W/R - Choke, Sylvan Library, Noble Hierarch come to mind - but since you're playing Magus and with *lots* of WW, I think it's probably better to have better mana than go 3c to play cards that have W/R replacements. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if you did fine with the deck.

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Originally Posted by hill_giant

3 recruiter might be right, as that card is phenomenal. Magus is time-sensitive enough that I've been running 3. It's kinda hard to see a difference between 32 and 23 in actual testing of a non blue deck.

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I find 3 recruiter + multiple caverns main to make miracles such a favorable matchup that I barely need to sb anymore. But I keep an extra Magus in the SB for the 3c decks, because you do still want one before they can set their game up. I think it's more of a meta call than anything. How many Magus-is-bad games do you expect to see? Overall I think 3/2 recruiter/magus cuts down on the variance a little bit - you get slightly fewer auto-wins g1, but your topdecks are better, and especially in grindy g2/g3s recruiter gives you so much more consistency and targeted responses to their SB cards.

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Originally Posted by hill_giant

I haven't used holy light because it feels a little too narrow. If it killed 2-toughness elves, I'd like it a lot more, but maybe I'm underestimating it. I've killed them with ratchet bombs and such, but sofi and judgment have been good enough for me. There aren't enough TNNs lately to be too concerned.

3 recruiter might be right, as that card is phenomenal. Magus is time-sensitive enough that I've been running 3. It's kinda hard to see a difference between 32 and 23 in actual testing of a non blue deck.

I really like where the maindeck is right now, although my sideboard is probably not perfect. I'm not even sure what cards I consider flex slots other than maybe the wingmare itself. If Seattle were tomorrow, I'd register the same 60.

No. Flamespeaker is a powerful card, but it's double red, and I'm not interested in being able to reliably cast it. SoWaP is interesting to me, but I haven't tried it. I would think that if you want a white sword, sols seems to protect from more removal and generate more value. I honestly sometimes consider just adding another sofi to the board for matchups where the first one dies because sofi is so good in so many matchups.

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Have you considered Pyroclasms?

With regards to the artifacts, I found myself many times getting the SoFI out first due to its card advantage and the same amount of damage as the Bskull. Jitte would come out agaisnt certain decks. So I started using the skull in the SB and maindecked a SoWP... and it did work. especially vs miracles. equip that on a doublestriker (which is why i mentioned flamespeaker as well) and the game can be over in a turn.

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Originally Posted by James718

Have you considered Pyroclasms?

With regards to the artifacts, I found myself many times getting the SoFI out first due to its card advantage and the same amount of damage as the Bskull. Jitte would come out agaisnt certain decks. So I started using the skull in the SB and maindecked a SoWP... and it did work. especially vs miracles. equip that on a doublestriker (which is why i mentioned flamespeaker as well) and the game can be over in a turn.

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Pyroclasm kills all of our creatures... Sudden demise is much better as it is a 1 sided pyroclasm.

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Originally Posted by hill_giant

10-3
R14: Tin Fins
I win the roll and keep vial double thalia with some lands including wasteland and port. He thoughtseizes one of them and petal therapies the other. I just port him on turns 2 and 3 as I draw lands (including a karakas that he hasn't seen). When I port him on 2, he responds with entomb, and on 3, he responds with fetch sea lim-dul's vault. He misses his land drop and I waste the sea. When he goes off with dark rit shallow grave, I flickerwisp griselbrand in response to the first activation. He manages to find a children to not die, but he can't combo. Griselbrand comes back at end step and on my turn, I play karakas and bounce it. Attacking with wisp leaves him below 14, so when he fires again, he can only draw 7 before his attack. After he attacks, I vial out another flickerwisp (waiting until combat in case he's able to put another griselbrand into play), which stops him from gaining life, so he can't combo and is dead on board.
Game 2, he mulls to 5 and doesn't kill me turn 2, so I land thalia and canonist. After those, I play magus to turn my plateau into a mountain because I can't imagine losing the game if he doesn't cast massacre and the bears take it.

11-3

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That was me - thanks for the games! Game 1 was insane - I couldn't believe you ripped the second Flickerwisp! So good.

Was fun playing you! And btw, Game 2 I mulled to 4. :(

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Originally Posted by James718

Have you considered Pyroclasms?

With regards to the artifacts, I found myself many times getting the SoFI out first due to its card advantage and the same amount of damage as the Bskull. Jitte would come out agaisnt certain decks. So I started using the skull in the SB and maindecked a SoWP... and it did work. especially vs miracles. equip that on a doublestriker (which is why i mentioned flamespeaker as well) and the game can be over in a turn.

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I don't think you need the game to be over in a turn against Miracles. It's nice, but you don't need to set yourself up to get hosed by a Terminus. I think the way this deck plays out, you don't need to race a clock very often but when you do vs a creature deck, a BSkull is at least as good or better. When you have to race vs a combo deck, BSkull requires less total mana investment, and isn't a total blowout if they have a removal spell. Still, hey why not, I'm willing to test a SoWP in the SB if I can find one.

@iatee

Thanks for answering me. I liked the points raised by you. I will test at least once in the NAIA version, but probably will return to play WW, because I have not recruiters.

@iatee: As nice as Cavern is for its uncounterability, each Cavern also costs you a red source for Sudden Demise.

@hill_giant: I'm not a fan of Cataclysm, but it might be a necessary evil in the current meta. The current trends show that Miracles and Shardless BUG are going to be THE DTBs in the next time, so the control match-up needs to be addressed somehow.

Manriki-Gusari seems like a waste of SB space. The mirror is too uncommon and Blade decks aren't that common currently, either, since everybody who plays control either plays Miracles or Shardless. I would rather play a tutorable Relic-Warder in that space.

As nice as Recruiter is, it's slow, especially on draws without Vial. I'm currently considering going to 2 Recruiter/2 Magus MD to have room for 2 Crusader/2 Avengers as beaters, as it feels alot more like classic D&T.

As for the SB, I'm still theorycrafting, but I might get closer to a satisfying sideboard:

Core:
3 Sudden Demise
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Containment Priest
1 Enlightened Tutor

Demise and Judgment as removal, Relic-Warder as tutor target for Recruiter, and 3 ways to grab/play RiP/Canonist on T2. Containment Priest is for various match-ups.

This leaves us with 3 flexspots which could be used for various stuff:
- Another copy of Containment Priest
- 3rd Magus of the Moon OR Blood Moon (as E-Tutor target) - has anybody seriously tested BM as a sideboard card yet?
- Pithing Needle/Ratched Bomb
- anti-control cards like Cataclysm
- Sword of War and Peace

I think Blood Moon is bad because:

- Very often costs 4 mana
- Can't be vialed in (or caverned)
- People are bringing disenchant effects in anyway

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Originally Posted by iatee

- People are bringing disenchant effects in anyway

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But they also bring in even more creature removal than enchantment removal. It would be another angle to attack their manabase.

The other points are valid, though.

After watching better D&T players play I started to also rely more on Sword of Fire and Ice vs miracles.

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Originally Posted by .dk

That was me - thanks for the games! Game 1 was insane - I couldn't believe you ripped the second Flickerwisp! So good.

Was fun playing you! And btw, Game 2 I mulled to 4. :(

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Yeah, topdecking the second wisp was pretty savage. My notes do say that it was 4, not 5, so that's a typo.

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Originally Posted by Barook

But they also bring in even more creature removal than enchantment removal.

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That's true, but you also can't Mom-protect a Blood Moon, so I think it's a wash.

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Originally Posted by Barook

@iatee: As nice as Cavern is for its uncounterability, each Cavern also costs you a red source for Sudden Demise.

@hill_giant: I'm not a fan of Cataclysm, but it might be a necessary evil in the current meta. The current trends show that Miracles and Shardless BUG are going to be THE DTBs in the next time, so the control match-up needs to be addressed somehow.

Manriki-Gusari seems like a waste of SB space. The mirror is too uncommon and Blade decks aren't that common currently, either, since everybody who plays control either plays Miracles or Shardless. I would rather play a tutorable Relic-Warder in that space.

As nice as Recruiter is, it's slow, especially on draws without Vial. I'm currently considering going to 2 Recruiter/2 Magus MD to have room for 2 Crusader/2 Avengers as beaters, as it feels alot more like classic D&T.

As for the SB, I'm still theorycrafting, but I might get closer to a satisfying sideboard:

Core:
3 Sudden Demise
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Containment Priest
1 Enlightened Tutor

Demise and Judgment as removal, Relic-Warder as tutor target for Recruiter, and 3 ways to grab/play RiP/Canonist on T2. Containment Priest is for various match-ups.

This leaves us with 3 flexspots which could be used for various stuff:
- Another copy of Containment Priest
- 3rd Magus of the Moon OR Blood Moon (as E-Tutor target) - has anybody seriously tested BM as a sideboard card yet?
- Pithing Needle/Ratched Bomb
- anti-control cards like Cataclysm
- Sword of War and Peace

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Yeah, I was expecting more mirrors, where I think red is a liability, and I thought that stoneblade would be nonzero. I almost cut manriki for a lightning bolt at the last minute, but decided to keep myself extra safe from the dreaded tnn + jitte. I never brought it in. Cataclysm isn't as useful against shardless as it was before, and it's not like we need any help there anyway, so I could see cutting it as long as I get something that's still great against miracles. I do have an unhealthy love for cataclysm though. It's so fun to cast.
I think that this version is light enough on etutor targets to make it not worth it. I'd rather be actually drawing that rip.

Did you guys get a sense for how much D+T was actually in the room? I'm curious as to whether Mono-W had a terrible day or just wasn't there.

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Originally Posted by hill_giant

I think that this version is light enough on etutor targets to make it not worth it. I'd rather be actually drawing that rip.

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Fair enough - I would mainly run E-Tutor to save space. Of course 3 RiP and 3 Canonist are also an option, but gives you 1 less flexspot in the board.

What other cards that we can actually run are supposed to be good against Miracles, aside from Cataclysm and maybe Sword of War and Peace?

Pithing Needle has relevance against more decks than Cataclysm, sometimes a little redundant with all the Revokers, but they don't typically stay on board the whole game vs Miracles.

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Originally Posted by iatee

Pithing Needle has relevance against more decks than Cataclysm, sometimes a little redundant with all the Revokers, but they don't typically stay on board the whole game vs Miracles.

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Pithing Needle is nice to have vs Miracles and has applications in various match-ups, but isn't a true "Miracle Slayer".

Imperial Recruiter is the Miracle-slayer! I honestly find the match-up so favorable w/ 3 Recruiters - you really only lose to playing terribly or an unchecked Mentor. Like sure we're not an 90-10 favorite like 12-post, but the match-up is very solid, especially now that DTT is gone. I'm definitely happy to sit across from Miracles post-DTT and the burden is on them to have a good sb.

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Originally Posted by iatee

Imperial Recruiter is the Miracle-slayer! I honestly find the match-up so favorable w/ 3 Recruiters - you really only lose to playing terribly or an unchecked Mentor. Like sure we're not an 90-10 favorite like 12-post, but the match-up is very solid, especially now that DTT is gone. I'm definitely happy to sit across from Miracles post-DTT and the burden is on them to have a good sb.

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How many Caverns do you run, since you speak of multiple Caverns? I'm intersted in your manabase.

I'm still skeptical about excessive Cavern use since you DO need as many red sources as possible to reliably cast Sudden Demise early.