You do realize that they will just name Teeg to Council's Judgment? The rest of the stuff can be terminus'd away at proper time without caring about Greaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
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You do realize that they will just name Teeg to Council's Judgment? The rest of the stuff can be terminus'd away at proper time without caring about Greaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
@trollking
My thinking with Vengeance was between haste and trample (and pump) you get to punch through TNN and have effective dudes against Miracles (since they won't get the opportunity to dig for one before getting hit, similar to greaves.) Basically, it turns any 2/1 into a first-strike trample version of batterskull. It's sort of an in-between of the Sword of X&Y and BSK; which is probably why it's meh.
@dsck
Maybe? They also may realize you can find Teeg (3-5 ways of getting him) easier than you can find greaves. Unless they can spend mana on Judgement while having enough mana for Jace/Entreat then you have a reasonable chance of simply having another Teeg/GSZ in your hand or topdeck. The risk/reward of hitting Teeg directly and then losing because they found #2 and you have no more answers (or have to leave up W for Plow right after Judgement) may mean hitting greaves and Plowing him now that he can't be protected as easily.
Either way, the situation is obnoxious for miracles, which is all you're trying to do.
Are people playing 2 Teegs maindeck nowadays?
I'm at 1 main 1 side currently, the second for the miracles matchup .
Not main; sdematt is starting a trend (with at least me and a couple others following) that in total, you may have 3. I like this number instead of my old 1 Teeg 2 Canonist side since the same combo decks are effected but it buffs Miracles.
So yeah; even if there's only a single Teeg in the main (GSZ), I'd probably hedge 1-2 in the side since GSZ only equals Teeg when he isn't exiled/dead (and against miracles, multiples make an annoying problem.)
In matt's case, it's 3 Teeg and a GSZ. In Mav's case I could see an X GSZ, 1 Teeg, 1 SB Teeg split for these reasons.
In my case, it's 3 in the side with no GSZ; but a SoLaS to give pro-white. I'd consider greaves to make Karakas dead, but I haven't decided. Wasteland helps enough there I'd assume.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Yeah I was thinking g1 miracle player definitely would Council's Judgment Teeg instead of Greaves.
I see the argument but idk....Teeg is a dud in other matchups. Having 2 main is a hefty gamble to take. Even against Miracles, STP or CJ naming "Teeg" opens up SDT -> draw effect - > Terminus through the upkeep, meaning extra Teegs. This is why Miracles is annoying. It doesn't help CJ > Shroud. It's a catch 22 for Maverick. We outselves can take out TNN but other decks like Miracles will use it against us. If I wanted to sure-up my Miracles matchup, I'd make sure I had QPM, Kgrips, and Armageddons than a 3rd Teeg and Greaves. Just my opinion though.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Took the black-splash Maverick with Dark Depths to a weird $30/three-round tournament at Eudemonia in Berkeley today.
I beat Team America and Patriot in tight three-game matches against nice dudes, but punted hard my first game against Miracles. The second was lost when he randomly had his 1x Karakas to blank my Thalia and then I drew two more Thalias and only managed to top-deck a Wasteland after my opponent powered out four 4/4 angels. Sigh.
My sideboard lacked Pithing Needle and Choke, though even with them I guess it's an uphill fight. So I wound up with like $44 in store credit--not terrible. If nothing else, the deck remains a lot of fun to play.
Is the spike feeder combo just too expensive for legacy? Maverick would be the perfect home for it between the infinite life and the infinite 1/1 counters for any mana dorks you had on board already.
Yeah i would say it is too expensive for maverick. NicFit runs it, and is the only deck which can afford it, in my opinion. Between Explorer Ramp and Birthing Pod its easy to deploy the Combo. Maverick doesnt have those things and also runs the wasteland plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I've been wanting to dip my toes into a more creature oriented deck lately so I threw together a quick maverick list to spin around with. After a couple hours of testing, I've come upon this list; my starting point was a far more traditional maverick list featuring the fast 4 gsz's along with the toolbox and super fast mana. However, when I was playing versus miracles, the deck just seemed to play more and more into their terminuses. Unless gsz is fetching a teeg, all of the mana dorks and fast gsz targets just get swept away. I also found counterbalance hard to deal with if I didnt have a gsz. The result is that I moved to a list that is more inspired by d&t that features vials. I kept the 3 drs's for additional early presence as well as extra mana to help play/equip sofai/jitte. Here's the list I'm testing after a few tweaks here and there:
25 Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Serra Avenger
3x Knight of the Reliquary
13 Spells
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Council's Judgment
22 Lands
4x Marsh Flats
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
The main slots I find that are weak are the 2 serra avengers and the singleton council's judgment. WW can be a challenge to reach without drs; and while the serras were initially added to combat delver decks (list was intially closer to dnt after I added vials), I feel that the abrupt decays allow me to hit delver consistently enough that they weren't absolutely necessary. I'm considering dropping them for something else, but not quite sure what would fit well in those two slots. I'm considering the 4th revoker/thalia and a singleton library to help filter. The judgment slot is a concession to tnn being present in the metagame, but it is very difficult to cast when thalia is on the field, perhaps it would be better off to switch back to the 4th swords, especially if i decide to slot in the 4th thalia.
Anyways, thats where I'm at. I know that this is a fairly different approach compared to the standard gsz lists and harks back a bit further to the first maverick lists, but I think that vial is a excellent tool to battle the miracles matchup which seems to be a primary reason this deck is no longer so ubiquitous.
How about 2 Qasali Pridemage? They are a reasonable clock on they're own and add some disruption as well.
I was playing around a bit more with the deck and what I think would be excellent in the avenger slot would be tidehollow sculler. With vial on 2, its a great way to counter any miracle shennanigans unless they also have a swords (and you dont have an active mom), essentially doing a very good impression of vendilion clique. Vs combo decks, its basically a thoughtseize on a 2/2 body. Vs blade decks, its a nice stall tactic to turn off w/e they fetch for as well as to overload their somewhat limited removal. I also switched the judgment back to swords as getting 4 mana with this deck was sometimes a huge pain in the ass.
I also played around a bit with pridemage. When its good its amazing, but it doesn't really provide any card advantage and is just a dead card in a lot of combo matchups.
With UR Delver with 0 Wastelands quickly becoming a major deck to beat in the format, does Punishing Maverick become more well-positioned? I like the idea of 7+ maindeck removal spells for Aberrations and Pyromancers in a Mother of Runes deck right now. It might just fundamentally be wrong to not be casting Treasure Cruise and/or Lightning Bolt in the current format, but having the PFire engine seems like a really good way to for a non-blue deck keep up with a Cruise aggro deck, and cards like Scavenging Ooze are pretty insane. Jund's discard plan looks a lot worse when they can Cruise their way out of it so I'm starting to think that Maverick is poised to put up results. This is all just theorycrafting though. Has anyone tried updating Punishing Mav for the post-Cruise format?
I've been thinking about punishing fire as well.
Here is my current build. I've seen a few punishing lists choose maindeck mindcensor over Thalia and I've actually really liked the change, people have just not been playing around mindcensor at all and you don't slow down your own punishing fires. I could easily see Thalia being the right choice in the cruise world though.
Main
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sword's to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
The sideboard is definitely just a mess of on-color good stuff I like...
I ran a non black splash list like this a while ago, but I strongly recommend 2 wilt leaf lieges in the board. It makes hymns awkward, lili awkward, can preemptively stop golgari charm, night of souls betrayal, zealous persecution from the blade decks rock and black mirror, and turns thing like mindcensor into a more serious threat. In the black maverick lists you dont have to worry as much since you cut some hierarchs and add some deathrites, but in this list I think wilt leaf would be perfect. Not sure what to cut though, sideboard is mostly combo/control hate and wilt leaf is more on the midrange hate. 3 Teeg and a choke against miracles post board is disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
I think you last sentence will apply to a lot of decks going forward. I'm predicting I'll want all the Teeg I can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I actually really like swapping out the spirits for wilt-leaf lieges since I was definitely overloaded on combo/blue answers in the board. Thanks for the suggestion.
You're welcome! After that you will be super well rounded, Spirits would be better against elves, but you already have mindcensor to attack them.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
Although I didn't do so hot at this weekend's small GPT, I reached the same conclusion about Mindcensor. I've hated on this card for so long, but literally every top deck gets in trouble when this guy flashes in (all blue decks, combo, elves, DnT with stoneforge). I beat reanimator wasteland-ing their opening dual, having them brick for a turn, then mincensor-ing in response to a fetch. It's backbreaking. I have to find a way to bring him into the MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
I've also debated about Pfires. Despite it being well-positioned on paper, I'm not sure if it's worth switching over. I win so many games going Thalia + Wasteland. I acknowledge Pfires gives us infinite removal for x/1 and x/2 things but I need convincing over Pfires engine > Thalia. I'm not opposed to switching over from a black splash to red. The colors help with different metas. I just need to see what's better/stronger in the current UR/Elves/Miracle mix.
@Choke: I keep going back and forth over playing this or armageddon. Two weeks in a row I swap out a pair of armageddons for a broader SB card (this week was mindcensor). Both times I should have stayed with my gut. 'Geddon would have been just brutal.
*Something I did learn this weekend: I should play an oblivion ring or canonist for decks that cheat things out into play. I beat Hypergenesis by the skin of my teeth.
New SB is looking like...
3 Thoughtseize
2 Canonist
1 Teeg #2
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Toxic Deluge
1 PTE
5 Flex (RIP, Liege, Armageddon, ZP #3, Planeswalkers, Oblivion Ring, NO package)
I'm debating on joining the Junk Maverick movement: on one hand, the appeal of Sylvan Safekeeper with Mother of Runes to say no to spot removal looks really damn good in the current meta. But on the other, old habits die hard, and I'm so used to Nic Fit that building with a low curve in mind is gonna be tricky.
So, enough of my useless rambling: any suggestions for the following list?
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland
EDIT: Updated -3 Wasteland; +1Thalia (Despite all the vulnerable manabases at the moment, I feel that Maverick cannot make as much out of Wasteland as the Delver decks)
EDIT: Updated: -1 Thalia; -1 Knight; +2 Linvala (A flying creature carrying a sword seems legit, and what better way to make use of one than to give it a relevant ability)
Updated: -1 Sc.Ooze; -1 Pridemage, -1 Depths, -1 Stage, +3 Wasteland, +1 Karakas (Although I see the value in Stage Depths being able to end games quickly, I have reservations about being able to survive that long against combo, which is when I would definitely want the game to end asap).