[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus

Hey Tao (and anyone else on the Lilliana boat)-

I've never liked playing with Lilliana except with P-Fire or Recurring Nightmare, it just always felt bad to +1 her unless I didn't have a hand. Most of the time she ended up being a 3CMC Edict. It seems like a lot of the better players really like her, so I assume I'm doing something wrong when I play with Lilliana. Can you sell me on her?

Also, I noticed Tao took out the Probes in favor of Inquisition. This is exactly what I did in my BUG build, except with Thoughtseize. Why not Thoughtseize?

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Liliana fits very well in both my builds. The Punishing list is designed to use her as best as possible. You have 4 Fire, 4 Grove and 4 Top to find the Combo fast. And with those 4 Top and the 3 Thoughtseize you can reach that "unless I don't have a card in hand" state quickly.
In BUG she forms a great tag team with Jace. The two combined usually make the game end very quickly in your favor.

What I like about her in general is her flexibility:
- keeps Combo decks down so they have a much harder time coming back from your initial Discard. Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by Liliana is much more devastating for them than Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by creature pressure.
- a random Edict against Aggro, not very good but it helps
- backing up Deed/Decay/Fire by clearing what they can't hit (most notably Tombstalker from TA and Progenitus from Elves)
- she forces Miracle decks into a role that they are not designed to play, being active. Because if they can't deal with her quickly they lose to her ultimate.

I find Inquisition/Thoughtseize in general very close. I think Punishing lists can deal with the lifeloss a bit better than BUG so I chose IoK in BUG. It doesn't really matter I think, Thoughtseize is great, too.

Quick report:

vs Punishing Jund: Game one I kept a Deathrite, double therapy two fetch hand on the draw. The deathrite gets punishing fired and my first two draws are more therapys. He eventually double wastes me and I die without seeing an explorer or another land. Game two I screw up by playing turn one explorer off of a basic instead of fetching bayou. On my next turn I play tower and need to fetch double forest to cast decay on his bob and run out kitchen finks. He hymns me, wastes the tower, and I sit there drawing black cards (which he hymns) before drawing another explorer. And another. And another. Finally, I've fetched all my basics and have a 35 card deck with five lands left, and manage to draw three fetches in a row. At the end of the game, I punt again by ignoring my graveyard when Brainstorm finds a E Witness, figuring his Deathrite can just eat whatever I target, forgetting I had a deed from earlier.

So, not playing well. 0-1

R2 vs reanimator. Game one I play an explorer and he turn one careful studies. I turn two Therapy (hit) and flash back before casting Pod, my only action. He untaps, cantrips, and Exumes Grizzel into play and I get back Explorer. He draws seven and gets an Iona on green. I pod Explorer into P Image, copying Grizzel, and have some fun of my own. Shriekmaw answers Iona, and Recurring Nightmare starts doing silly things. G2 he forces my t1 seize and I die t2, G3 he has to fight through Deathrite but then I have more fun times Imaging Grizzel.

1-1

R3 vs Maverick G1 I keep a double therapy, Bstorm, explorer hand with plenty of gas but no green source. I give myself very good odds to win if I hit, and the therapys should slow the opponent down long enough. Of course, I die with Deed in my hand and no green source at the end of the game. G2 I have a clunky start but finally draw deed. Unfortunately, I miscalculate the board and die.

Still not playing well. 1-2

R4 vs Punishing Jund G1 I land a turn three grave titan. G2 he has active PFires, Liliana, and a Goyf going. I draw grave titan but he fires the zombies and edicts me. I draw veteran explorer, which he lets live. Next turn I draw Recurring Nightmare. He reads it before letting it resolve, and suddenly I have Grave Titan back. I end the loop with Eternal Witness getting back Brainstorm so that he can't liliana uptick to get rid of Nightmare. He kills Grave Titan again but dies to the reload + Phantasmal Image.

2-2

R5 vs Reanimator

G1 we strip each other's hands and he reanimates a turn three Grizzel. I Redcap him to seven, ship turn, and deceiver tap Grizzel on his upkeep. On my turn I land titan, and his only out is exhuming an Elesh Norn, which he doesn't find off of his seven. (not even always a md card) G2 He kills me turn two. G3 we strip each other's hand before glen elendra comes online naturally. He eventually sticks a Grizzel, but I have deceiver to tap it for lethal.

Never played a Pod, Deathrite, or Ooze this match, just killed him with discard and random garbage.

3-2

R6 vs Jeff Rasmussen with RUG

Matchup is a bye. Like it's good for normal 'Fit, but even better with four strix and more gas.

4-2

R7 vs Paul Morelli with Shardless BUG

Game one he Hymns me into Lili into Jace, but I stick a Pod and he dies. G2 I therapy his Jace and kill him with Pod again.

This matchup is actually close, and very losable if they open with an early shardless into visions to destroy whatever you're trying to do. Paul boarded in Submerge, which I think is a mistake, though it did fog my pod chain a couple times.

R8 vs Elves

G1 he kills me turn three while I need one more turn to deed, g2 I strip his hand and kill him with Pod, g3 I get hung up on a clique line and this tunnel vision makes me miss an obviously better line, and I completely punt the game and match.

Still playing like garbage. Deck is complex, fun, and very hard at times.

5-3

R9 vs Storm

Game one I open with Explorer and he makes 12 1/1s. I sack explorer to tower and make a strix, ooze, and second explorer. I block, taking nine, and the second explorer trigger lets ooze eat on his turn. On my turn three I brainstorm and have redcap, image, and glen elendra to put the game away. G2 I mull to four and he opens with goblins again, and I don't find a golgari charm. G3 I keep therapy, explorer, mindbreak, lands and open with therapy on probe. My reasoning was that I'd seen probe both previous games but only one duress and silence in game two, so I actually didn't know how many duress he had since it could be split with silence. I was trying to protect the mindbreak, but this was a bad line as his hand could go off turn one with a duress for my trap. He doesn't have mana floating and ad nauses down to one before passing the turn. I draw negate, pass. He tries comboing and negate bricks him. I untap, flash back therapy (thanks ad naus) and play a strix. He dies.

6-3

Overall list felt great and I had a lot of fun. Wish I'd mulled more aggressively in the opening rounds and hadn't punted so much, but some of that is inexperience with some of the (very) complex lines that come up.

Also, Recurring Nightmare is incredibly orgasmabonkers in this deck. Never lost a game after sticking it or Grave Titan.

Shriekmaw was the only five drop I was consistently happy to pod up, but it's also dead vs a giant chunk of the field. Hmm. Has to be a good five drop vs spells out there. Like I really like the redcap/glen elendra split on the four drops.

The reason I cut Recurring Nightmare from a lot of my lists was theorycrafting with Deathrite everywhere. You didn't run into that issue it seems? (Pod seems so well positioned to use Recurring Nightmare. Hell, that's one of my favorite cards from the old lists, definitely one of the cards that made me love this deck.)

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Originally Posted by Tao

Liliana fits very well in both my builds. The Punishing list is designed to use her as best as possible. You have 4 Fire, 4 Grove and 4 Top to find the Combo fast. And with those 4 Top and the 3 Thoughtseize you can reach that "unless I don't have a card in hand" state quickly.
In BUG she forms a great tag team with Jace. The two combined usually make the game end very quickly in your favor.

What I like about her in general is her flexibility:
- keeps Combo decks down so they have a much harder time coming back from your initial Discard. Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by Liliana is much more devastating for them than Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by creature pressure.
- a random Edict against Aggro, not very good but it helps
- backing up Deed/Decay/Fire by clearing what they can't hit (most notably Tombstalker from TA and Progenitus from Elves)
- she forces Miracle decks into a role that they are not designed to play, being active. Because if they can't deal with her quickly they lose to her ultimate.

I find Inquisition/Thoughtseize in general very close. I think Punishing lists can deal with the lifeloss a bit better than BUG so I chose IoK in BUG. It doesn't really matter I think, Thoughtseize is great, too.

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I never thought of the Jace/Lilliana interaction! Makes a lot of sense. (I just need three more. How many more boxes of bulk commons can I trade? That's the game I'm playing now.)

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Originally Posted by CalebD

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Shriekmaw was the only five drop I was consistently happy to pod up, but it's also dead vs a giant chunk of the field. Hmm. Has to be a good five drop vs spells out there. Like I really like the redcap/glen elendra split on the four drops.

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Congrats on the decent finish Caleb. I still think thragtusk is a good 5 drop to have access to. But maybe having access to 3 different 5 drops isn't a bad idea. For the anti-spell/combo creature Sadistic Hypnotist might be the best option. It is dependent on having creatures, but at the very least can sac itself. And if you have a finks,archmage or just a couple mana guys out, making your opponent immediately discard 4-8 cards seems pretty good. Other probably less good options are Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir+counterspells or Spiketail Drake.

@Recurring Nightmare: I didn't think of it but Caleb is right when he says that Nightmare gets better in Pod lists because these lists are full of tutorable value creatures. Caleb has Strix, Finks, Redcap, Archmage, Slime, Shriekmaw on top of the usual Witness, Explorer, Tusk and Titan. So it gets more powerful as well as eliminating the risk that the Nightmare is not good without interaction from the opponent because you don't have drawn useful creatures for it.
In general running a Nightmare is still a good option if you are confident to handle Shaman and have the creature base to support it.

Gratz @Caleb.

5-drop slot: I am fairly certain there is nothing useful in these colors. Reveillark is great but would require a splash and that is difficult.
I had 2 Archmages in my list to compensate for the lack of 5-drop spell control options and to have a third 4-drop. My problem with Hypnotist was that it was too inconsistent. I often didn't have enough random dorks around and never wanted to sac it to itself because then I'd have to start the Pod Chain all over again.
Meloku might be an option in the 5-Mana-slot. Doesn't solve any problems so that might be an issue but he should be good in general when he comes out of a Pod and you have a lot of mana and need quick big impact.

Mana Base: Shouldn't it be 3 Forest, 2 Island instead of 4/1?

5-drops
Blue
Body Double-Seems cute
Peregrine Drake-More ramp?
River Kelpie-This seems interesting....
Black
Morkrut Banshee-one time removal?
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen-Also mentioned before..another win con?
Puppeteer Clique-This one seems really nice.
Shadowborn Demon-Doesn't seem bad, bigger body then shriekmaw.
Green
Deranged Hermit-Of Course
Kodama of the North Tree-Nice Beatstick, 3g is a little harsh

Thoughts?

Caleb's article has sparked my interest in pod, but I have to admit I'm more interested in playing white instead of blue. White has voice, reveilark, and sun titan. I cut green sun zenith in favor of just playing more creatures, it's awkward to try to green sun for something and then pod on the same turn. This is a first draft of a list I came up with, it seems OK in the abstract, but if you guys have any suggestions let me know. It would be nice to have a way to discard elesh norn beyond therapy to rec-nightmare it in. I've thought about academy rector too but I'd rather just play more recurring nightmare. The deck looks super weak to combo game one.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Voice of Resurgence (maybe strangleroot geist)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Acidic Slime
1 Reveillark
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

4 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb

I also have to agree with caleb about thragtusk. I find the card incredibly underwhelming. He's flat out embarrassing against batterskull. I run into a lot of stoneblade decks in my meta, and when you ramp your opponent game one they have more than enough mana to equip batterskull to something or return it to their hand, so trading with a thragtusk is great for them not you. The life gain is relevant against burn and U/W delver but both of those decks really have no problem killing you before you get to 5 mana. U/W delver's daze and force in particular make thrag pretty bad. I don't know, I'm sure he's great against something but honestly I'm not in love with the card.

I experimented with White Pod but couldn't come up with a satisfying list. What I learned:

- Rector should be played at least as a 1-off. The option to tutor for Deed is too good to not use. Maybe also a Collective Blessing or a Primeval Bounty on top of Recurring Nightmare.
- In the SB you should play Orzhov Pontiff (Death and Taxes, Elves, Maverick, Goblins), Qasali Pridemage (Sneak Attack, Omnitell, Miracles, Blade) and Sin Collector (every Combo matchup).
- I don't think you need Elesh Norn. When would you ever want to sacrifice a Titan?
- also, why Vindicate and SB Pulses over Abrupt Decay?

Did you try to incorporate a combo kill in the Pod version? My inclination is that would be one of the major reasons to add Pod. GSZ does a perfectly fine job of fetching silver bullets as answers, but Pod does a better job of comboing creatures together. My other suspicion was the lack of Dryad Arbor (even without GSZ) since you're on green fetches and it can be used to Pod up DRS or Explorer. Were these ideas already tested?

I've actually been tinkering with the Pod shell for Thune for a little while now after being unhappy with Living Wish, and I've finally come to a testable list. Here's what I'm going to start testing with:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Strangleroot Geist
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
1 Academy Rector
1 Murderous Redcap
1 [can't remember]
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Birthing Pod
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent

mana base (same as I've used forever now)
3/3/2
3/2/1
3/3
2

//SB

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Mindslicer
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Nether Void
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nevermore

I wish I could remember what the third 4-drop was that I had laid out ._.

The things that GBW loses from BUG are Baleful Strix, Phantasmal Image (turn an Explorer into the best thing in play), Exarch (cheat on Pod chains), and perhaps most importantly Glen Elendra Archmage.

The early defense of Strix can be offset by additional lifegain (which happens to feed into the combo), as well as by a pair of Voice of Resurgence / Geist slots. I'm starting with them each at 1 because I don't know which will prove to be better.

Unfortunately, the other three don't really have good replacements. From white, though, we pick up the Archangel combo, Rector for easy Nightmare access, Sigarda, and a (IMO) better Titan. Both versions have respectable sideboard options, but I believe white narrowly wins thanks to Orzhov Pontiff + Nevermore, along with access to the combat planeswalkers to really brutalize fair decks.

I'll note that if I end up feeling adventurous, I may try 4 colors. It wouldn't be hard to add on like 1-2 blue duals and 1 island, and in exchange we could pick up Strix over Voice/Geist/1 STE, Exarch over 1 Spike Feeder or Kitchen Finks, and 1 Glen Elendra over whatever 4 drop I'm forgetting. Then, the sideboard could be composed of the best of both worlds -- the permanent hate of white, along with the stack disruption of blue. This approach may be better with Deathrite Shaman in the deck, which would likely include trade-offs elsewhere.

Ive been working on this BGw list

Pod Rock

Creatures [17]
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Heons
1 Primeval Titan


Engine [10]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Diabolic Intent

Removals [9]
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

Discard [4]
4 Cabal Therapy

Lands [21]
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I think geist is better than voice because it persist... you dont want to sacrifice voice for a 3cmc creature

Theros has some cards that i think need consideration right now, in particular:

Xenagos: The 0 is pretty good and get stupid really fast (2, 6, 12, 20 damage, divided between several creatures). The Pro-white dragon has haste (good against JTMS and walkers in general), and pro-white mean they can't sword it (and he don't care about angel woo). Haste also mean sweepers would still take 4 damage before they can do anything about it. The monstrous ability is also something that you can sometimes activate in this kind of deck, and while extremely costly, it make him a 7/7 flier that can ping or bolt your opponent.
Destructive reverly is a possible sideboard card, but i don't think we really care about the 2 damage in this deck.

Maybe something like this?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 StormBreath Dragon

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Xenagos

4 Punishing Fire
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Innocent Blood
2 Living Wish
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village
3 Grove of the Burnwillows


SB: 1 Grove of the Burnwillows
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Pyroblast


Punishing fires build are pretty good against Grixis and blood moon if you expect some of those after their recent success. Xenagos is an infinite stream of 2/2, and lifegain is not as important right now i feel so he get a nod over huntmaster. Xenagos also murder JTMS and most of Miracle decks if you manage to cast him. With 3 innocent bloods, Deed, DRS and punishing fires, RUG should be pretty easy too. You got the full 8 discard package for combo, hope that's enough pre-board, get 6 blast after board. The Wishboard is a relic and i've got no idea if i'd ever keep wish in the deck (it's cute for sure Grove and Maze i guess). StormDragon is basically unkillable by most of the top decks, barring double bolts, and sorcery speed removal still take 4 to the face. Monstrous is super costly but it's a nice perk in some games and you often have mana to spare lategame, giving you a sink.
Pernicious is amazing against elves, and most of the format really. Grixis basically fold to it, Elves fold to it, RUG fold to it, Blood Moon decks fold to it if they can't Blood Moon before you play it, Miracle can't play angels as long as it's down, and D&T also hate this shit. Only thing it isn't good against is Omniscience/S&T decks. You have the 8 discard package for it, plus blasts in the SB.

EDIT: wow forgot that AD was printed since i last played this deck. Maybe remove the wishboard entirely? Not having tutors may make the deck a bit too unconsistent...

I think Xenagos is worse than Garruk Relentless. While it is nice that his tokens have Haste at fighting other Planeswalkers, I think that shooting DR Shamans, Stoneforge Mystics, Delvers that would kill you or your own Explorers is better.
The new Dragon is interesting because it does not get hit by any spot removal except Dismember. But I still don't think he is what the deck wants. He is too small (unless you activate his overcosted, otherwise useless, Monstrosity ability) and if he gets Edicted by Liliana or Terminus'ed you gained nothing.

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Originally Posted by Tao

I think Xenagos is worse than Garruk Relentless. While it is nice that his tokens have Haste at fighting other Planeswalkers, I think that shooting DR Shamans, Stoneforge Mystics, Delvers that would kill you or your own Explorers is better.
The new Dragon is interesting because it does not get hit by any spot removal except Dismember. But I still don't think he is what the deck wants. He is too small (unless you activate his overcosted, otherwise useless, Monstrosity ability) and if he gets Edicted by Liliana or Terminus'ed you gained nothing.

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/barn

The one exception is that if one was to brew some kind of X-spell based Jund list with like Rosheen Meanderer, Rakdos's Return, Bonfire, Profane Command, GSZ, etc. In such a build, I could see Xenagos alongside ramp critters being decent, because Xenagos could help power out the huge X-spells that such a build would be based around. His ultimate is useless for us, sadly -- his merits are solely his +1 and his -0, and on those merits alone, he's worse than Relentless.

We don't even run Thundermaw. I don't think that Stormbreath is any better, at all. Pro-white is kind of cool, but he's too small to do anything meaningful with that protection. Flyers needs to be 5-power to matter, IMO (for us, obviously, not in general).

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Got in some between-rounds testing last night with Thune. Deck seemed pretty gross overall, although the creature selection needs refining. The missing 4-drop that I was forgetting was Trostani, because I felt like testing her out (and her synergy with Archangel is solid). Playable green 4-drops are pretty few and far between, sadly. I'm going to try to run Thune at my other local tomorrow night (yes, I have two locals. I'm spoiled), probably with a few changes to the creature base.

In other news, I really want some artifact hate in my board for Scape. I wish there was a Reverent Silence for artifacts ._. I'm not sure that I care enough to run Pulverize, but I'm getting tired of not having a Wishable artifact sweeper.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

/barn

The one exception is that if one was to brew some kind of X-spell based Jund list with like Rosheen Meanderer, Rakdos's Return, Bonfire, Profane Command, GSZ, etc. In such a build, I could see Xenagos alongside ramp critters being decent, because Xenagos could help power out the huge X-spells that such a build would be based around. His ultimate is useless for us, sadly -- his merits are solely his +1 and his -0, and on those merits alone, he's worse than Relentless.

We don't even run Thundermaw. I don't think that Stormbreath is any better, at all. Pro-white is kind of cool, but he's too small to do anything meaningful with that protection. Flyers needs to be 5-power to matter, IMO (for us, obviously, not in general).

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Got in some between-rounds testing last night with Thune. Deck seemed pretty gross overall, although the creature selection needs refining. The missing 4-drop that I was forgetting was Trostani, because I felt like testing her out (and her synergy with Archangel is solid). Playable green 4-drops are pretty few and far between, sadly. I'm going to try to run Thune at my other local tomorrow night (yes, I have two locals. I'm spoiled), probably with a few changes to the creature base.

In other news, I really want some artifact hate in my board for Scape. I wish there was a Reverent Silence for artifacts ._. I'm not sure that I care enough to run Pulverize, but I'm getting tired of not having a Wishable artifact sweeper.

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Vandalblast, Shatterstom and Shatter spree are the only red artifact sweepers I can think of. You also have creeping corrosion if you want to cast it on the same turn you tutor for it and you're worried about red mana availability.

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Originally Posted by rednose

Vandalblast, Shatterstom and Shatter spree are the only red artifact sweepers I can think of. You also have creeping corrosion if you want to cast it on the same turn you tutor for it and you're worried about red mana availability.

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Pulverize and Seeds of Innocence are the two that top my list. Pulverize is serious scorched earth tactics, and I don't think that the 'free' nature of the spell is worth the cost. Vandalblast could be a consideration, but the fact that two of the decks that I would want the card against (MUD and UBTezz) are both Chalice of the Void decks makes V-blast a little awkward.

You know, at the risk of sounding naive, I think I'm gonna test that new RG walker in Nic Fit. Backup ramp (sorta, if only we played more creatures), and a good stream of tokens, and if we ever get to ultimate him it could be... okay. Bah, I guess that's why he's not too good for us. Too many spells that aren't creatures in most lists (at least mine).

any thoughts on new spoiled reaper of the wild?

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Originally Posted by kabards

any thoughts on new spoiled reaper of the wild?

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She competes with Thrun and Huntmaster of the Fells.
I guess both are better since they do something uefull if and opponent have StP and :w: open.
Gorgon has Hexproof, but you better just drop Titan or Zenith=>Thragtusk for 6 mana.