Not that I am suggesting this but if you wanted a tutor in the board I would probably play the grim main along with 3 infernals and the 4th infernal in the board
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Not that I am suggesting this but if you wanted a tutor in the board I would probably play the grim main along with 3 infernals and the 4th infernal in the board
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I feel like some of you are blowing Cabal Ritual way out of proportion here. You are aware you dont have to go for thresh and you can just use it as a black Desperate Ritual, right? It's still +1 mana, like a Chrome Mox would be, but in matchups where you have to go long, it gives you extra options. Postboard, if my Patriot or Stoneblade opponent goes "Island, go" its a good bet I'll be taking some time to Wish for Tutor/protection and likely will go off Turn 3 and enjoy having extra mana to play around Spell Pierce. But its not like if my Elf opponent goes "Forest, Symbiote, go" I wouldnt just slam my hand down their throat, threshold be damned. Cabal Rit and "preboarding" the 4th Infernal Tutor to the SB give you extra options against Blue control that has been giving Storm decks extra trouble every since TNN made it easy for them to handle fair decks. This does come with some slight decrease in the number of t1 Ad Nauseams or Warrens, but its an adjustment for the meta and what that means is trading percentage points in less relevant matchups for points in more relevant matchups.
that's an excellent point. i like being greedy about cabal ritual, but forgetting it's a (inefficient) +1 made me lose some games i played. some times, you just gotta warrens them and see that is it about.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I tried swapping the 4th IT to the maindeck when i played against some "we gotta kill them t2" decks (jund, goblins)... didn't feel much difference in those particular games, but i guess that cant be all that bad, right?
I think that here your metagame kicks in. If you are playing in SCG tourneys only with all their Multi-format Gründers which prefer the easy, streamlined decks like Delver, this point of view is valid and nothing new, but in Europe you see a lot more Miracles, D&T and BUG decks with Hymn, all matchups in which the slower approach with only 3 IT but CR's can bite your assQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
against DnT the boarded IT is the difference between having 10 business cards to go off early vs 9, which is 74% in your opener vs 70% and against Miracles and BUG youd board the 4th tutor out anyway. for BUG, the ability to have a really stellar ritual for PiF also helps against discard when their fast clocks make IT -> Ad Nauseam less effective as well. Miracles is also pretty popular lately in the SCG circuit and America, so I dont think Bryant wouldve discounted it in his changes either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If your meta is full of Jund/DnT or other hymm/hatebears to the point where Diminishing Returns could be good (because part of the reason for sided IT is that Burning Wish otherwise couldnt be a storm engine now that Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains are outdated) and that 4% difference is VERY relevant... then just dont play Cabal Rit. Switch Rits in main for an IT and 3rd Chrome Mox, board a Diminishing Returns and call it a day. I think Bryant said it before, you dont HAVE to play his list and his list is likely metagaming for the general SCG or tourney meta, apply your own conditions as needed.
Of course we don't HAVE to play Bryants list. But what's thr point of a forum if we aren't allowed to discuss deck changes? Bryant is the one person who had ALL rights to change the list to whatever he likes it to become, for better or for worse. And I'll be here telling him I like his changes. Or that I dislike them. I know his contribution to the deck, and I will never tell him to shut up or to stop innovating. I will, however, mention his changes that I disagree with.
I strongly feel that we are trying to adapt to the meta with the wrong deck. If the Discard spells, the sheer power level of Cabal Ritual and the certainty of Past in Flames are what gets the Storm mechanic to win games, we should make sure we utilise those as well as we can. And we will, if we admit we should be using Basics, Fetch Lands and Cabal Ritual in an ANT shell.
If we decide we need something new all together, I am very willing to cough up a new list. Heck, why not do so right now?
NOTE: I am just throwing this in here. I have never played this. It's just an idea.
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony /21
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Cabal Ritual /19
3-4 Duress
3-4 Cabal Therapy /7
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
8 UBR Fetch /13
Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames.
1 Reforge the Soul
0-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Therapy/Duress
1 Thoughtseize.
1 Grapeshot
1 New Sorcery Bounce Card (forgot the name)
2 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
0-2 (meta slot)
0-1 Ad Nauseam /15
I'm not really sure I understand the direction of this deck. It is becoming fragile ANT, and I don't see the pros of playing the current list over an ANT build that runs a more stable manabase and more fetches. Before this list the deck was a better Belcher deck, and that was pretty cool if you were into that kind of thing. Burning Wish ANT was already a deck, and I'm not sure it fits into the "TES" shell at all.
Pretty funny as I tried out the idea to jam together all 3 Rituals earlier this year too. Sadly the result was that you don't want to go for AN unless you have 1-2 mana float, otherwise the odds of continuing the combo with less initial mana but a higher average cmc of the cards revealed to AN will force You to pass the turn very often. This is basically the reason AN is considered a "draw 7" only in ANT. Ergo the increased number of Rituals made the deck slower with a pretty mana-flooded midgame in which PIF was miles better than AN (in case I wasn't dying because all I drew was mana)Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Maybe you missed the fact that I cut Ad Nauseam from the main deck I posted? :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I only added it to the board as a 0-1 (meaning take it if you want it, otherwise leave it). If I play the deck the way I posted, I would probably play an Ad Nauseam and 1-2 Chrome Mox on side for the non-blue matchups and so I can switch Empty with Ad Nauseam against Miracles.
But discussing this is probably very off topic anyway, because the list I posted is by no means an Epic Storm list. It probably comes closer to the Grinding Station deck qua playing style.
You are right. i totally missed it xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Just because I run the 4th Infernal Tutor, 4th Chrome Mox and Thoughtseize MD doesn't mean I don't think there are other viable configurations, I think the number of Infernal Tutors and Chrome Moxes are relative to how many counters and Wastelands you expect to face in your metagame, one of the things I've been experimenting with is cutting Green, replacing Gemstone Mines with Fetchlands and playing an Island with more lands in the SB.
I haven't been very impressed by the miser's Cabal Ritual, I generally just want lands.
I've been gone all weekend, I opted to go to GP:Chicago.
This thread is jut chock full of whining, I understand that some people dislike change. If you don't like my changes, just don't play them. But I'm actively trying to find the highest success rates and right now with in heavy blue metagame Cabal Ritual is better than the additional land and a third Chrome Mox. If the metagame changes and decks like Death and Taxes, Jund or Burn with Eidelon become popular, then it would be right to switch back. They're metagame changes people.
One of the issues with this thread is I'm beginning to wonder if people know what they're talking about at all anymore. Cabal Ritual is bad against discard decks? What?
I played against UWr and BUG Delver over the weekend, I was thrilled every time I drew Cabal Ritual and it wasn't a Chrome Mox. I also never once saw a lack of power in Ad Nauseam. Notably because casting Ad Nauseam with mana floating is just as good as revealing a Chome Mox.
🙏Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Amen
If you guys are interested in another change, I'm cutting Pyroblast for another Chain of Vapor and a third Abrupt Decay. With Eideleon becoming more and more popular I want more answers (mainly a second Chain), with this our Miracles match-up weakens which is why I'm adding the third Decay back in. As for sideboarding versus UWr decks. I think bringing in Grapeshot or Tendrils (Your choice) is a fine solution to Meddling Mage.
Hey there, everyone. As promised, I decided to go ahead and try the Cabal Rituals in the main, took it into a Daily Event on MTGO. I kept an eye out for situation where Cabal Ritual came up and noted whether it would've been better or worse as a Chrome Mox or a land (unfortunately, its online, so its not as though I couldn't somehow note the cards to know which would've been the land or the Mox etc). I went in a fan of these changes, and I wanted to put a little money where my mouth was. Next up, I'll be testing with no Pyroblast and an additional copy of Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay, just because I do encounter a fair amount of Burn online.
Unfortunately, I've still not unpacked all my stuff after moving, so I couldn't stream the event. Enjoy this mini-report in it's place, hopefully I can shed a little light on how effectual, positively or negatively, the Cabal Rituals were. 33 player event, dailies are always 4 rounds on MTGO. It's an admittedly small sample size, but a little data is better than none at all. Luckily, being at my comp let me take a lot of notes.
Round 1 - Death and Taxes
Game 1: Opponent leads off with Plains into Aether Vial, passing back to me. I launch a Gitaxian Probe, seeing equipment, a couple Aven Mindcensors, a land and a Thalia. I throw around some mana before using a Burning Wish to find 14 Goblins off Empty the Warrens. The opponent can't beat 14 Goblins and concedes. Cabal Ritual never came up.
Sideboarding:
- 3 Duress
- 2 Ponder
+ 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Chain of Vapor
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Tropical Island
Game 2: Opponent heads on in with Rishadan Port into Aether Vial and passes. I mimic my last opening too with Gitaxian Probe, revealing Thalia, Port, and no white sources among the other cards. I then throw some mana around, Cabal Ritual included, Emptying the Warrens for 14 via Burning Wish once more. It's worth noting I emptied my hand too, meaning a Chrome Mox would've been as useless as a land when it comes to trying to go off turn 1. Bricking here would've led to a painful Rishadan Porting at least, or a topped white source could invite a Thalia to eat all my cookies. Cabal Ritiual, even though I didn't get to hit Threshold, was exactly what I needed to play the Belcher role here. 10 min round 1.
Round 2 - UWR Delver
Game 1: My hand has no Cabal Rituals, but it does have a turn 1 play of Lion's Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. Being on the play, I just decide to jam it, no fear. With only 1 land and no cantrips, it's not like the hand would get better fighting other counters anyway and 20 life Ad Nauseams are beautiful. The opponent doesn't have Force of Will and doesn't concede to the Gitaxian Probe that follows my Ad Nauseam; 2 big mistakes, I suppose. The opponent reveals Scalding Tarn, Flooded Strand, True-Name Nemesis, Stifle, Daze, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Umezawa's Jitte: UWR Delver without the secondary or tertiary colors. I do some stuff and dunk, no Cabal Rituals, sorry.
Sideboarding:
- 2 Ponder
+ 2 Pyroblast
Game 2: I keep an ok hand, the opponent kept a one-lander with some graveyard hate, which would end up being irrelevant as I never saw a Cabal Ritual and he never cast the Rest in Peace, only a Graffdigger's Cage. The opponent leads with a Delver of Secrets and later flips it revealing Force of Will, complicating matters. I Ponder revealing Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish. I have to go off the turn after, an earlier Duress on another Force of Will revealed the opponent has no other counters, blue cards, or lands, though their next draw could be a counter or a blue card. I get struck to 13 by Insectile Aberration and the opponent passes with one untapped Tundra, the Graffdigger's Cage, Insectile Aberration and a hand of: 1 unknown, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Stoneforge Mystic and Rest in Peace. I draw and between Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, I have 3 options, depending on how safe I want to be:
1: Use Burning Wish for Thoughtseize, follow with Empty the Warrens. This plays around all counters, conserves a Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal for the next Burning Wish on top and produces a lot of Goblins.
2: Bait counters with a midsized Empty the Warrens, follow with Burning Wish to Empty the Warrens again. This plays around Flusterstorm only if they throw it at the first Empty the Warrens, Force of Will on Burning Wish would leave me with a very shaky clock, though. If the opponent has nothing this option gives the opponent one turn fewer compared to option 1 if successful, which is the allure.
3: Jam all the mana into a Burning Wish and try to Tendrils out. This wins right away, 2 turns before option 1 and 1 turn before option 2, but plays around absolutely no counters.
With the opponent stuck on one land and a 4 turn clock as is, I decide to play it safe and run option 1. Thoughtseize nabs Stoneforge Mystic after revealing nothing of consequence, and I produce 16 Goblins with the in-hand Empty the Warrens. With 2 lands, a Lotus Petal, and Lion's Eye Diamond, I'm pretty secure at 11 life, because I can grab Grapeshot or Massacre to stem damage, or even Tendrils for 2 in a pinch. The opponent continues to draw dead and loses. While Rest in Peace would've made Cabal Ritual lackluster (if they could cast it and I had Cabal Ritual, neither of which happened), the real issue was just making sure I could resolve spells when they mattered. Also I was, once again, strapped for cards and storm-count to the point where Chrome Mox or a land, respectively, wouldn't be very welcome at the time even if the issue of Rest in Peace had reared its head.
Round 3 - UR Delver
Game 1: The opponent leads with Grim Lavamancer off of a Volcanic Island, revealing their deck choice. I actually kept a no-lander because it contained Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, Burning Wish, Brainstorm and 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, the logic being I would either go off or find a land. I resigned myself to the latter when my Gitaxian Probe revealed a Force of Will and Snapcaster Mage amidst a Goblin Guide, Ponder and land. The Gitaxian Probe drew me another Lotus Petal, so I hope to use the Ponder off of Lotus Petal to draw out an aggressive Force of Will and win or at least find a land. Again, I had to settle for the latter. I spend a turn cantripping and hitting another land, then soak some damage, falling to 13. On turn 4 I Brainstorm, placing a second Burning Wish on top. I use my first Burning Wish to play a subsequent Thoughtseize, my opponent assumes I'm not going off this turn and Brainstorms to protect the Force of Will, revealing a pair of Lightning Bolts, lands, and a Ponder. I then lay down the 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, use Gitaxian Probe to crack both Lion's Eye Diamonds and Burning Wish into Tendrils of Agony for lethal. No Cabal Rituals involved.
Sideboarding:
- 2 Ponder
+ 2 Pyroblast
Game 2: Here my greed catches up to me as I keep another hand of shaky mana due to the allure of in-hand Ad Nauseam and Pyroblast. The opponent leads with Delver of Secrets. I Duress a Force of Will, seeing Swan Song and Snapcaster Mage among some lands and red cards. On the following upkeep my opponent yields an Insectile Aberration by revealing another Force of Will right off the top. I struggle for a while, stuck on mana, my opponent deploys a Goblin Guide when my Pyroblast hits his Insectile Aberration. I end up dying in the face of multiple counters. In retrospect it was probably a mistake to keep such an unstable hand as I could play through very little and Ad Nauseam isn't at it's best against a Delver deck packing extra burn. My bad, guys.
Sideboarding:
No additional changes
Game 3: I lead off with a Duress that strikes a Flusterstorm, revealing a couple lands, a Relic of Progenitus, Delver of Secrets and Ponder. The opponent decides to Ponder and pass, I decide to exploit that with a Cabal Therapy on Delver of Secrets. I end up hitting 2, which were likely going to come down the following turn with Ponder setup. Luckily, I managed to deny such a clock, and the opponent resigns to cantrips and Relic of Progenitus. I'm looking at my double Cabal Rituals and recognizing I'll never be able to hit Threshold on either. However, I ended up laying quite a few lands to exploit this clockless state, so another land or a Chrome Mox would actually be worse (in fact, another fetch would be useless as I ended up needing to fetch up all my duals). I move in with a Cabal Therapy on Flusterstorm, only to see a Force of Will and 2 Snapcaster Mage as my opponent's remaining cards, I would have to get very creative here because I would need far too much discard otherwise. Over the next 2 turns the opponent lands a Delver of Secrets and flips it. Meanwhile I used Burning Wish to try and draw a counter on one turn, ending up with Empty the Warrens, and then on the following turn replicated the Empty the Warrens with Infernal Tutor. On turn 8 the opponent taps down to Snapcaster a cantrip. This surprises me, as he would only have the Force and one unknown card (he revealed another Force to flip his Delver of Secrets, but cracked a fetchland to find an unknown card, as 2 Force of Wills aren't that great against double Force of Will) to protect himself. I ramp up with Rite of Flame and 2 Cabal Rituals (neither had Threshold as my grave was being sapped every turn) and cast the first Empty the Warrens. The opponent only had 2 mana open, so they couldn't Snapcaster Mage a Flusterstorm, the Empty the Warrens resolved. I then flashback a Cabal Therapy to build storm and cut off his other Snapcaster Mage from being used as a cantripping blocker, the opponent then reveals their own trick by responding with a punishing Price of Progress. I eat 10 damage (like I said, land or Chrome Mox wouldn't have been helpful with the amount of lands I'd been stuck with), and followup with another Cabal Therapy on Force of Will, to build storm. I then lay the last Warrens and pass with 22 Goblins and 4 life. The opponent draws, swings with Insectile Aberration and Snapcaster Mage, I block and fall to 1. On my turn, the opponent cracks Relic of Progenitus and... doesn't hit a burn spell. I managed to salvage the match with a double Empty the Warrens that I'd never used before, so I feel like I made up for my sloppy keep last game. Moreover, the big issue here was, again, not about maximizing rituals, but about getting spells to resolve. The Cabal Rituals, though they weren't at their best, were still better than a land or Chrome Mox. If you need further convincing, note how useless another land would be here: http://puu.sh/9HqUa/066960cf44.jpg
Round 4 - Ad Nauseam Tendrils
Game 1: The opponent is on the play and goes in with Lotus Petal, followed by Dark Ritual and Duress. Oh boy, the turn 1 no-lander protected kill? I F6 and sit back as the opponent continues with Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor to double Lion's Eye Diamond, 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds and an Infernal Tutor for Past in Flames. My eyes glaze a bit as the Duress is flashback'd, and then I situp with a start... the opponent has 3 black mana floating, 1 card in hand, and no rituals left. The opponent played one spell too far and had given the game away. I then leisurely setup as the opponent has nothing and I only had to build back from double Duress. I go off turn 4 with double Cabal Ritual, with Threshold, into an incredible Ad Nauseam. You wouldn't get this kind of mileage from an extra land or a Chrome Mox, that's for sure. I show him how to really combo out with a 16 count Tendrils.
Sideboarding:
- 1 Empty the Warrens
+ 1 Tendrils of Agony
Game 2: I keep a solid hand that is one Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond away from turn 1 Ad Nauseam off of Infernal Tutor, it also boasts a Ponder to find more business if the opponent has discard turn 1. The opponent leads with Tropical Island into Ponder, no discard. I cantrip for my turn and still don't get there. The opponent then Brainstorms, fetches an Underground Sea and Ponders. Being unmolested by discard for so long, I simply lay my third land, cast a Lotus Petal and a Lion's Eye Diamond, and then launch Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. I pay all the way down to 4 life, yet I only found Infernal Tutor, no Tendrils of Agony, and no Lion's Eye Diamond to get hellbent to find the Tendrils of Agony. However, I have a Ponder to find my 4 outer (3 Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Tendrils of Agony), and Cabal Ritual to give me enough mana to launch the fairly secure backup plan of 4 discard spells and nearly 30 Goblins, which is probably lethal in over 99% of cases. I Ponder and hit the Tendrils, what a lucky guy. Again, land wouldn't have gotten me there, and another Chrome Mox would, at best, give me another Ponder to play at the cost of the black mana, and thus discard spells, that made Empty the Warrens such a secure backup plan.
So that is my testing of the Cabal Ritual build, a nifty little 4-0, with a few bad plays and a few good plays. Ultimately, I never felt like I wanted a land or a Chrome Mox, Cabal Ritual seemed to be a better card on average. Even in the midst of the Relic or threat of Thalia I was still perfectly happy to accept my +1 black mana, and when I actually hit it on Threshold it gave me enough mana to do some real crazy stuff. I'll keep on testing the new changes, including the removal of Pyroblasts, later on. Hope this was useful. Thanks for reading.
Thanks alot for the report ,pretty entertaining :)
So you never cast cabal ritual with ******** right?
Looks like it was always just like a pyretic ritual.
But well i'm not a huge fan of chrome mox anyway so i would definately prefer cabal ritual.
There are so many games were i don't have any card to imprint in my hand ( and you really don't wanna imprint a ritual for instance)
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I hit threshold for Cabal Rituals in both games playing against ANT. I think it really excels in the storm mirror, since there's an turn or two spent cantripping or exchanging discard spells. I agree, though, that it was often just a black Pyretic Ritual. Though when you're comboing out the fact that it doesn't cost a card and is always playable is pretty significant, imo. It's also better for Past in Flames, though that didn't come up.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Ah,missed it.
Pif is great to have but is not our plan a).
having access to ad nauseam with mana floating seems great.
And if not,6 initial mana sources (4 peals and 2 Chrome mox) are enough to continue the combo after an ad nauseam without mana floating.
In my opinion we never need more than 2 chrome mox in the deck,let's cut bad cards from the deck and replace them with good ones.
Well, I wouldn't call Chrome Mox a bad card, I wouldn't wanna go overboard there. Its more like a necessary evil, which is why the marginal value pretty steeply declines. I'd say the first and second "black Pyretic Ritual" has a higher marginal value than the third Chrome Mox and 13th land, though. Especially with the possibility of threshold that makes it better than actual Pyretic Ritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Looks like you've never got molested by Stifle, Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce or mulligans which are the reasons to run more initial mana sources rather than Cabal Rituals. The lategame power of CR is undeniable, but that was never the point; it was it's initial cost for early combo attempts off a single land or against the beforementioned cards and it's cmc for Ad Nauseam. I guess I found myself too often on the other side of the spectrum, with a CR in hand against softcounters, barely any IMS and without thres.hold