[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I'm not sure what to say about the list (partly b/c I haven't woken up properly yet), but do let me say this: I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of model based deckbuilding. It gives a lot of insight of what one is trying to accomplish with any given list and might, in time, give some solid insight on how the list'd perform.

I don't know if it'll become a thing in the MtG community but if it is, it started here.

Even if SE Fit doesn't take us to new places, it did give us model based deckbuilding and I'm proud of it.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I'm not sure what to say about the list (partly b/c I haven't woken up properly yet), but do let me say this: I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of model based deckbuilding. It gives a lot of insight of what one is trying to accomplish with any given list and might, in time, give some solid insight on how the list'd perform.

I don't know if it'll become a thing in the MtG community but if it is, it started here.

Even if SE Fit doesn't take us to new places, it did give us model based deckbuilding and I'm proud of it.

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Model based is how I've built for years, I like the concept but it's also easy to go wrong in constructing the model (see the two ideas which have lead to SFM vs Bob as a 2 drop and wildly different deck results). Sometimes the requirements aren't accurate and that's the case now. We have major problems with Eldrazi and Miracles but seem overtuned for Delver. I would suggest we try and Elephant the deck against everything in the DTB forum. Come up with a set of requirements for each archetype and our lists. From there we can identify the core cards and what needs to shift with the meta, alongside how the SB should shift. This should result in a deck that's more balanced against the field while also giving us an optimal sideboard plan.

SE has definitely taken me to new places though. My creature counts are higher, my CA is up, card selection is up. My mana efficiency is up. It's like I can hang with the blue decks now. Shardless, Delver, etc are pretty much never lose but Miracles is sometimes lose and Eldrazi is always lose... we won't even go into S&T and Reanimator.

Actually, if I remember correctly Chapin's deckbuilding book has a chapter devoted to model based building.

Im honeslty not sure how i feel about it either but i asked a bunch of questions and this was the answer...its super ugly.

Yah, I've been building decks using spreadsheets and numerical analysis for a long time, so I assumed a lot of people were just doing it too.

I saw a good article about the science of sideboarding (google it) a while ago

And yea, I think thats why this whole discussion began, I've got a lot of data, and the data tells me we can shave points off of our delver and creature matchups to up our miracles and combo game. Hence the inclusion of thoughtsieze and more card advantage.

I must have missed a memo or something, but what is SE fit?

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Yah, I've been building decks using spreadsheets and numerical analysis for a long time, so I assumed a lot of people were just doing it too.

I saw a good article about the science of sideboarding (google it) a while ago

And yea, I think thats why this whole discussion began, I've got a lot of data, and the data tells me we can shave points off of our delver and creature matchups to up our miracles and combo game. Hence the inclusion of thoughtsieze and more card advantage.

I must have missed a memo or something, but what is SE fit?

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Since I am playing with 2 ts in the main as well, can you post your 75? thanks

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Since I am playing with 2 ts in the main as well, can you post your 75? thanks

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Sure, I'm currently in Japan though which has meant I haven't been able to test since these discussions begun (but i did manage to pick up a Japanese Sorin for a good price (the art for that card is sooo bad though, why Eric, why?!))
That said, I was playing with 2 thoughtsiezes for a while, and very much like them.

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1? Marsh flats / Karakas / Tower

3 Top
1 Truths
4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE / DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Tusk / Rhino (I like tusk because it's better against miracles and trades with angler/goyf/smasher)
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed
(I want to test unexpectedly absent... it's like cheaper anguished unmaking / expensive path)

SB
2 Needle
2 Surg Ext
2 TS
1 Sylvan Safekeeper / 1 Rec sage / 1 Diabolic intent if running karakas
1 Teeg
2 Abeyance
1 Engineered Plague
2 Tox Deluge
1 Truths
1 Sorin

I don't know abut Unexpectedly Absent, just because the double white in the casting cost can be a pain sometimes. Unmaking might actually be easier to cast, particularly against decks that attack the mana base. Also it doesn't permanently deal with some targets like Unmaking does (i.e. Miracles will still re-draw that Keranos eventually), even if you do get it before a shuffle.

I hated the art on Sorin at first, but it's grown on me over time. It's very 80s metal-album-cover-looking, which I find hilarious especially in the context of Sorin as a character. I mean he's a planeswalking immortal vampire who fights space monsters that eat entire worlds. If that doesn't sound like some 80s metal song, I don't know what does.

Also I'll note that I have never been one of the people who builds decks with math. I build purely intuitively -- I just lay everything out and say okay, what am I trying to make room for, what has great, what hasn't, etc. So just so all you people with your spreadsheets and maths know, there IS another side to the coin :)

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I hated the art on Sorin at first, but it's grown on me over time. It's very 80s metal-album-cover-looking, which I find hilarious especially in the context of Sorin as a character. I mean he's a planeswalking immortal vampire who fights space monsters that eat entire worlds. If that doesn't sound like some 80s metal song, I don't know what does.

Also I'll note that I have never been one of the people who builds decks with math. I build purely intuitively -- I just lay everything out and say okay, what am I trying to make room for, what has great, what hasn't, etc. So just so all you people with your spreadsheets and maths know, there IS another side to the coin :)

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I am like you, math is hard.

Thanks Jain!

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed

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A few pages back, Arianrhod was talking about running a 3/2 Path/Decay split which seemed to work out reasonably well. IMO if we're running less than 4 Path, we should be running Unmaking as our Vindicate variant simply because the ability to take out Marit Lage and other indestructible permanents is really handy - Keranos in miracles is another card we have zero outs to if we aren't running Unmaking (unless he animates, haha). I have never found the land hitting of Vindicate to be particularly relevant, especially when most of the scary lands are manlands and so get popped by Deed and Path (looking at you, Inkmoth Nexus). I've never had particularly big issues with other effects - particularly since the decks that screw us with other lands are mainly playing Loam, which makes Vindicate look less important anyway.

I'm thinking of this:

3 Path
2 Decay
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Deed

3 Deeds would be nice but may not be worth it when you consider that the Stoneforge package gives the deck more potential to stabilise without Deed, so it isn't as essential as it would be in a Planeswalker or straight up Rhinotime build.

Personally I also like the look of maindeck Thoughtseize, looking to run a list similar to Jain Mor's above, with these changes:

-1 Veteran
-1 Meren
-1 Arbor
+1 Deathrite (going to 3/2/1 Vet/DRS/STE split)
+1 Rhino (going to 1/1 Rhino/Thragtusk split)
+1 Sylvan Library

I'm not sure if the Sword of Fire And Ice should be staying in considering the Arbor is gone which significantly reduces the number of topdecks capable of carrying a Sword. Might have to become something else, or switch the Library out for a second Eternal Witness.

For the sideboard, I'm thinking something like this:
3 Surgical (seriously, this card is absurd, I'd be tempted to maindeck it sometimes)
2 Needle
1 Thoughtseize (2/1 main/side split imo is enough)
1 Teeg
1 Sorin
7 ???

I'm thinking of putting in some number of cards which can go in against aggro strategies - against Delver and Burn, I want to be able to remove the Truths, Unmaking, and 2 Thoughtseize, so I'm probably going to need 4 cards to replace them. Currently I'm thinking of putting in the remaining 2 Decays (since they're relevant elsewhere too) and something else. I guess Teeg is fine against Burn for Fireblast, and Carpet of Flowers could be relevant against Delver.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I hated the art on Sorin at first, but it's grown on me over time. It's very 80s metal-album-cover-looking, which I find hilarious especially in the context of Sorin as a character. I mean he's a planeswalking immortal vampire who fights space monsters that eat entire worlds. If that doesn't sound like some 80s metal song, I don't know what does.

Also I'll note that I have never been one of the people who builds decks with math. I build purely intuitively -- I just lay everything out and say okay, what am I trying to make room for, what has great, what hasn't, etc. So just so all you people with your spreadsheets and maths know, there IS another side to the coin :)

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Kung-Fury sequel storyline? Please tell me some of you have seen that glorious 30 minute rollercoaster of 80s ridiculousness.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I am like you, math is hard.

Thanks Jain!

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Thank goodness there are those like-minded as well as those of a different thought process so we can approach this same goal from all sides.

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Sure, I'm currently in Japan though which has meant I haven't been able to test since these discussions begun (but i did manage to pick up a Japanese Sorin for a good price (the art for that card is sooo bad though, why Eric, why?!))
That said, I was playing with 2 thoughtsiezes for a while, and very much like them.

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1? Marsh flats / Karakas / Tower

3 Top
1 Truths
4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE / DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Tusk / Rhino (I like tusk because it's better against miracles and trades with angler/goyf/smasher)
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed
(I want to test unexpectedly absent... it's like cheaper anguished unmaking / expensive path)

SB
2 Needle
2 Surg Ext
2 TS
1 Sylvan Safekeeper / 1 Rec sage / 1 Diabolic intent if running karakas
1 Teeg
2 Abeyance
1 Engineered Plague
2 Tox Deluge
1 Truths
1 Sorin

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Scary, because I was finalizing a SFM list/package for Junk Fit this morning. Let me see if I can summarize my logic in the remains of my lunch break:
If you go 3 SFM, you're going to see her. By contrast, with only 2 SFM she disappears. There's math involved to determine actual %, but I suffer from lost-my-sock-in-the-wash effect when I run 2 of her. So if I want her, it's 3 or bust. The other side of SFM is the equipment. I'd personally run 2 equipment (the proposed 5-card package of SFM I made many pages ago is still where I'm at mentally). I am against 3 toys because something needs to carry the equipment. You don't want to be relying on SFM herself...and taking this equipment plan even further, you want to be touching the opponent (both in damage and in equipment triggers). I'm comfortable with Batterskull. I'm NOT sold on Jitte for my meta. It may actually be smarter for me to go R/U, B/W, or B/G sword [blanking on names, sorry]. Kev may be able to shed light on the subject of equipment (I know his views of SFM).

I am ambivalent about Arbor. He would be replacing Karakas as land #21, which is something I am not comfortable with. I would love to play 21 lands for the first time. I am also not a fan of going up to 22 lands just for dryad arbor.

As for the list, I would much rather convert those TS slots into something. Maybe they should be "interaction" creatures like Shriekmaw and QPM. Maybe they should just be beatsticks -- going with the "raw power of equipment on NicFit creatures" as others have discussed many pages ago. I think Bobmans at some point said there was something about Rhino + equipment just beating the shit out of your opponent. Maybe the TS should be truths #2 and a finisher.

This is the 60 I'm playing with

4 Gsun
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 DRS #2 / Sakura
1 Ewit
1 Meren
3 Rhino
1 Thragtusk / Thrun / Tasigur
1 Sigarda
3 SFM
/21 (17 + 4 GSZ)

1 BSK
1 secondary equipment
3 Top
2 Truths
/7

4 Therapy
3 Deed
2 Path
2 Decay
1 Pulse / Vindicate
/12

I'm not going to Mythic on Saturday, but this is where I'd be if I were:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
2 Spike Feeder
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Painful Truths
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip

I feel bad about being fully powered and always going to legacy over vintage, so I decided that this weekend I'm going to do the reverse and am going to Tales to jam Notion Thieves and Draw7s down peoples' throats.

Anyway.

I still don't have my german foil Recluse that I ordered, so he's not in the list at the moment. He would probably slot in over Spike #2 if I had him. I still want the 3rd Painful Truths, but there's no way to fit the card in maindeck without damaging the creature suite irrevocably. I feel a LITTLE light on GSZ targets as it is, but the angels are just too good. Instead, the 3rd Truths is in the sideboard for Miracles and other super grindy matchups.

There's really just like 3-4 slots between main and sideboard that I'm still not 100% happy with and am still adjusting. Otherwise I think this version is pretty close to perfect for the moment.

With those humble brags, starting to sound like Matt. I fear he is rubbing off on you. Good luck at your vintage tourney nonetheless. I am going to try to play another league. Sadly, I opted for BUG Legacy irl so I will be playing sunday and Monday with bugstill but fooling around with mtgo in the meantime. I am very excited about gp charlotte coming up.

ON TOPIC: Rhod, have you thought of a cavern in your 75 for those angels you would like to resolve? as a sideboard option against blue decks like miracles where resolving threats means huge game.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

With those humble brags, starting to sound like Matt. I fear he is rubbing off on you. Good luck at your vintage tourney nonetheless. I am going to try to play another league. Sadly, I opted for BUG Legacy irl so I will be playing sunday and Monday with bugstill but fooling around with mtgo in the meantime. I am very excited about gp charlotte coming up.

ON TOPIC: Rhod, have you thought of a cavern in your 75 for those angels you would like to resolve? as a sideboard option against blue decks like miracles where resolving threats means huge game.

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I'm not actually sure if the angels even stay in vs Miracles. Thunes might, Baneslayers almost definitely don't. Like, vs Miracles I think the plan should be resolve a Bigwalker, Slaughter out their wincons, and jam Sigarda down their throat repeatedly. Dromoka is still fine vs the non-legendary miracles builds, Tireless Tracker is fantastic still. But in general, I'd rather attack on a different angle as opposed to easily removed creatures. Thune only gets a "might stay in" because of the infinite combo -- if you can somehow manage to get that combo through, Jace (aka, #1 slaughter games target NA) becomes their only way of actually winning the game.

That doesn't mean I haven't thought about Cavern anyway, though. Cavern on Angel basically deletes Delver, and even vs Miracles it still has relevancy via Sigarda, since countering it is basically the only realistic way they have of getting rid of it. The biggest issue therein is finding the stupid thing. Technically you can Top for it, Truths into it, etc -- there's options, but I'm not sure I like any of them. Top is still a priority Needle target in the matchup, along with Jace, and Truths is high on their list of things that they need to counter. It's not like we have Ancient Stirrings or Expedition Map to find it.

Also: I'm almost certain to be at Charlotte, although I don't know if I'll be playing in the main or not.

Why Path over Swords if you pan to kill with giant Angels or get to infinite life?

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Originally Posted by Tao

Why Path over Swords if you pan to kill with giant Angels or get to infinite life?

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Asking the real questions. I think here it matters a bit less which one you choose, I agree. I'm just thinking that even if you are going infinite, Jace can still kill you...so you do still have to nug them.

-Matt

Also, Happy Liberation Day to the Dutch.

Sincerely,

A Canadian.

It matters less with this build, I agree, but it does still matter. Just because it has a combo with Thune in the deck does not mean that it's not still actively pressuring the opponent. Baneslayer usually ends the game in 3 swings, sometimes 2. Swords actively harms that clock. Furthermore, the argument of Path vs Swords vs Lands is still relevant: it's nearly impossible to beat them after they've gained 20 life, but it's quite possible if they grab a Forest instead (assuming that a Vet hasn't gone off already, in which case they get nothing).

Barring a really unusual circumstance, I think that Path is -almost- strictly better than Swords for Nic Fit, in the current meta at the very least.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Asking the real questions. I think here it matters a bit less which one you choose, I agree. I'm just thinking that even if you are going infinite, Jace can still kill you...so you do still have to nug them.

-Matt

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I think it matters a lot and I don't think it is close. Swords is just better in that deck. Giving D&T or Goblins Mana on turn 1 on a Mother of Runes or a Lackey is going to wreck you. Giving Infect their early Basic, giving Elves an extra Forest, or any DR Shaman deck with basics an early land hurts, too.

These situations are much more likely to matter than beating Miracles by turn 25 instead of turn 26.

With Rhinos you have a beatdown / lifeloss plan so Swords can hurt. But what do 5 extra life matter with Baneslayers, Archangels and Dragonlords? Certainly not as much as the risk from Path. Either you get these flyers to attack/combo and you win, or you don't and you lose.