What's your current board? Maybe we can help make cuts.
-Matt
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What's your current board? Maybe we can help make cuts.
-Matt
For my tutor board it seems to make more sense to run Canonist over Thalia. Does Thalia have more widespread effectiveness to warrant the spots? I was thinking vs Miracles and Esper but I don't know if she is really all that effective in our build.
Yes, he was playing 3 Deathrites main. Seemed good to me. I suppose it could really have been B/g board control (maindeck Shamans/Decays) but he was also playing targeted discard like Thoughtseize, Mox Diamond, and Raven's Crime. Seemed a little excessive given 3 Liliana's and 4 Hymns in his deck. I don't mind...it helped me get there because he didn't have threats in the game I won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Yes, I am debating dropping the 2 Scullers do I can get the 4th Souls and another Top into the main. Seems really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I have also dropped Choke from my sideboard...I found that in situations where I could be playing Choke I'd rather just be doubling up on cheap disruption and Wasteland than worrying about a hoser. Wasteland is good against RUG and I can always board in my Life from the Loam while using Shaman for extra mana. Choke just wasn't good.
The 2x Choke has become 2 open slots for now. Any ideas? I have Sorin, Garruk Relentless, Pithing Needle, Scullers, a 4th Surgical Extraction, Humility, Oblivion Ring, and additional Knights for ideas for now. The Knights would be for the matchups to pair with Wasteland/Loam.
On a related note, it literally *sucks ass* when Horizon Canopy is in my opening hand. I took around 4-5 damage in three games because I needed my fetches to fix my other colors (I also was fetching basics against the Goblins/Pox decks.) I am thinking it's time to drop it from my list, I draw it too often for my liking. I'm thinking it should be Karakas, but I am having trouble trading for one. I don't want another colorless land like Volrath's Stronghold or Maze of Ith, the color fixing is just too important to me.
So add to the 2 sideboard slots 'what do I put in for land #22?' as my two questions of the day.
I'll likely be moving over to a sideboard similar to yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Right now I think it's...
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thoughtseize
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tower of the Magistrate
i have allready seen 4 possible cuts :P
1. thoughtseize: i think a 4-off should be MD
2. tower of magistrate: only usefull against equipment-decks which should allready be handled by maze of ith
3. maelstrom pulse: i think there are better options and i do not think this one is necessary if not played MD
4. bojuka bog: is probably a metacall but is not really needed when we have extractions/extirpate + shaman MD
this is all on assuming your maindeck looks like most of ours with either knight + GSZ + souls, or stoneforgepackage + souls
I've cut Liliana from the deck in place of Lingering Souls, which seems pretty good in testing. I'm not running Cabal Therapy yet, since I'm not that confident running it in games 2/3 vs Combo after I've cut out the Souls. Maybe a 2/2/2 TS/IoK/Therapy split since I can still use the Therapy with Dryad Arbor and otherwise I don't want to kill any of my creatures outside of Souls tokens so I can't utilize the full x4 Therapy spread.
Here's my current board:
Still trying to determine whether or not Chains vs Sylvan is worth it when Chains hurts Griselbrand and Jace a ton, but I like it at the 2 spot for a hate card. Might go to a 2/1 Sylvan/Sensei's Top split in order to compensate, as well as get the occasional "Tutor, tap Top to draw my spell" deal.Quote:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Sorin's lifelink tokens are surprisingly relevant.
My maindeck looks a lot like sdematt's, though I cut the MD maelstrom pulse and 1 sylvan library for 2x liliana's. I'm not sure how I feel about the changes yet, liliana is a complete, destructive house against a lot of decks, but I feel the decks she's great against, we're already pretty good against..Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
Thalia's darn great against Esper. Keeping them off Jace/Verdict until turn 5 is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
@ Safety
Don't play Horizon Canopy. The card is garbage. Just play more Fetches.
@ Kich
Is Tower REALLY worth it against Esper? Like, I get the card is good at what it does, don't get me wrong. However, you only get one activation per turn (and if they're in the late game, they can re-equip to another creature) AND it means you need to keep KotR in for this matchup. Usually against Esper, I'm bringing in:Quote:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thoughtseize
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tower of the Magistrate
+2 Sorin
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+3 Thalia
-3 KotR
-3 Hand disruption
-1 Maze of Ith
(also possible to bring in Golgari charms to nuke possible Rest in Peaces or regenerate after sweepers, or nuke tokens)
Because late game, hand disruption is balls and KotR is usually a 3-mana derdle against a deck bringing in Rest in Peace (sometimes) and more removal. He's a beatstick that gets chumped by tokens. With Knight going out, Maze isn't great either. Sorin makes your Souls a much bigger threat, Thalia slows down their backbreaking spells (or even slowing down Snapcaster tricks), and Gaddock Teeg turns off their biggest threats. Keeping in your removal prevents them from connecting with Equipment (hopefully).
Also, I feel with only 2 slots of graveyard hate (true dedicated hate, not DRS/Ooze), I'd opt to choose other options over Surgical Extraction. I've been finding in a metagame with actual Dredge/Tin Fins, you want a real card like Rest in Peace (hear me out for a second) or Nihil Spellbomb.
Why? DRS/Ooze take out one card at a time, and I feel like you want a piece that nukes the graveyard as a piece of hate to tie you over until you can get a DRS or Ooze online. Essentially, you kick them in the nuts so you have enough time to grab a frying pan and finish them off.
Rest in Peace has been VERY good at what it does. Now, the card neuters us to high heaven, I'll grant you that. However, think about the matchups where you actively want it: (Manaless) Dredge, Tin Fins, and possibly Storm if you had nothing better. What cards are you bringing out in all of those matchups? Usually Knight (too slow, not enough utility) and derdly removal (creatureless decks). Rest in Peace blows those decks out of the water, and is backed by creatures like Thalia and Gaddock Teeg that don't care about the graveyard for P/T. Sure, Surgical does help on Turn 0, but against a deck like Tin Fins, they take it before it matters anyway.
I'd suggest a correction to:
2x Nihil Spellbomb/Rest in Peace (if you want REAL grave hate)
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thoughtseize
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
@ Claymore
You should keep Cabal Therapy in for Games 2 and 3 versus combo and should not remove Souls. You have worse cards to remove, such as Swords to Plowshares, Maze of Ith, etc. Being able to nut them with multiple Cabal Therapies wins games. Your 2/2/2 plan seems fine.Quote:
I've cut Liliana from the deck in place of Lingering Souls, which seems pretty good in testing. I'm not running Cabal Therapy yet, since I'm not that confident running it in games 2/3 vs Combo after I've cut out the Souls. Maybe a 2/2/2 TS/IoK/Therapy split since I can still use the Therapy with Dryad Arbor and otherwise I don't want to kill any of my creatures outside of Souls tokens so I can't utilize the full x4 Therapy spread.
E. tutor board, I likes. Since you're running the tutor board (are you running GSZ?), Cannonist is better than Thalia here, I'd think. I think the Surgicals should be stuff you can search with Tutor since it's just extra value for you (and little to no downside except for the Surgical vs. Other comparison).Quote:
Here's my current board:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
I think the 2/1 split is fine, especially if you're running Chains and E. tutor. Chains makes your Sylvans into painful Careful Studies, but destroys them moreso than you. If you're getting Sylvan and chains online, you're already winning.Quote:
Still trying to determine whether or not Chains vs Sylvan is worth it when Chains hurts Griselbrand and Jace a ton, but I like it at the 2 spot for a hate card. Might go to a 2/1 Sylvan/Sensei's Top split in order to compensate, as well as get the occasional "Tutor, tap Top to draw my spell" deal.
Agreed, especially when you've got an Emblem already. 1-2 life at a time is a real thing, especially in the grindy matchups where Sorin is great.Quote:
Sorin's lifelink tokens are surprisingly relevant.
@ Kich
Exactly my findings. Where she's good, we're already fine, and where we want her, like a blue based control deck like Esperblade, they have Souls (which can be awkward). i feel like there's better options to shore up the matchups we care about more. I tested GSZ versus Liliana last week as a test, and even though GSZ is still more midrange, the value in getting the value Teeg/Ooze or additional copy of creature X was usually WAY better than a Liliana.Quote:
My maindeck looks a lot like sdematt's, though I cut the MD maelstrom pulse and 1 sylvan library for 2x liliana's. I'm not sure how I feel about the changes yet, liliana is a complete, destructive house against a lot of decks, but I feel the decks she's great against, we're already pretty good against..
-Matt
lol, so your list looks actually allmost exactly like mine (divining top over library in my list may be the only difference) and a singleton jitte MD over Pulse, as pulse was mostly used to kill tokens, and jitte can do that as well as most tokens are 1/1Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
i for my part would never play the deck without liliana anymore, she is awesome, i would so much love to fit a 3rd in, but there is just no place
here is my board for reference and maindeck composition (outside of the "core")
3 Knight
2 GSZ
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Souls
1 Jitte
2 Divining tops
2 cabal therapys
i would say the rest is the same in all non hymn builds
i am still testing souls as i just recently switched to them
my board
2 timely reinforcements (to mitigate the damage from shocklands against red decks + gobbos and RUG)
2 gaddock teeg
3 tidehollow sculler (awesome, but would serve probably the same role as Thalia and i may have to try her as well, as it seems she helps way more in the esper matchup in which i still struggle a lot)
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm / Zealous Persecution still not completely sure what i should use.... charm helps in the show and tell matchup with killing leylines, persecution is better against esper, killing their tokens an pumping ours
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
depending on the meta, i thought of a second Jitte in the board instead of the 3rd Sculler, but sculler is really awesome
Regarding Tower of the Magistrate: If you just wait until combat to unequip their guys, then you don't really have to worry about them reequipping them since you've already pretty much neutered the effectiveness of their equipment plus you're now costing them more mana per turn than you're spending. And of course, the main reason to play Tower is because it absolutely rapes those Batterskull germs. That being said, yes playing Tower does mean you're going to have to keep your Knights in.
I'll be switching my list back to pulse and another library, I need a good maindeck answer to lingering souls and jace. I like your board plan, both in construction and swapping. Thanks matt, right now im putting my Rock on hold in an attempt to make alchemists refuge a card =D.
I'm not going argue against GSZ bc I know how powerful it can be and basically having an extra copy of each threat can really put the pressure on but I feel like the card is slight to slow right now in the meta. I mean for me that is. I just felt like maybe my input could be some help. My creature board is basically the same as matt's except no ooze. GSZ was very powerful in junk because it allowed tutoring for creature answers, but with a build that has no main deck answers I question why I should even run gsz. It feels weird without it honestly and some days i feel like i would want it but right now i just feel like having other utilities over it.
As for Sorin, I do like him much better over elspeth even though she's still a b**ch to deal with than sorin is. I do recommend playing at least one, life gain goes the distance.
@ Kich867
Bro, totally understand. I did the same thing. Im actually playing 2 Tops and a pulse. I switch the night before SCG Milwaukee for the +1 Pulse and it went to work. I pulse so much crap that I do like at least one of in my main. The reason for 2 tops over Sylvan Library is because I want to have the ability to always peek at my top three and also use wte card on top of my deck as a secret weapon.
Hmm... right now for my 22 or some ppls 23 land. I'm trying Nantuko Monastery. It might tap for colorless but it's a win against board wipes, planeswalkers, destroys batterskull and doesnt allow jitte counters. Many things.... Im only trying it, also its because my mana base can support it.
I mean, shit, you hand me a deck with Monastery in it and I like that deck already. I hadn't though of trying it out in the Rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petree
I had played it infinite ago BEFORE Karakas was a card in Legacy (so I guess prior to 2009?), and it was decent at the time.
-Matt
Yeah haha I don't know how good it's really going to be. So far though it seems reasonable. I just realized with Sorin it'll be a 5 plus first striker lol.... And I'd probably choose it over tower of magistrate just because Magistrate is only good against equipment decks whereas Nantuko can be a closer in games.
As for the talk about graveyard hate I've been just running 3 extirpate in my side before I was playing 3 farie macabre in the side. I mean theres a lot of things that could be play, when I faced against Jund, I thought what he brought in was pretty decent, he brought in Relic of Progenitus against me. Every time I DRS target a card in his GY, He just relic targeting himself. Which shut off DRS completely. And if he needed to, he'll exile both graveyards. I thought that was pretty good. Rest in Peace doesn't seem bad... I was thinking though... has anyone tried Grafdigger's Cage in The Rock??? I feel like maybe thats a good card for us, It still allows for DRS. It'll only let us use Lingering Souls once. It shuts off opposing Esper lingering souls and snapcaster. Also doesn't allow past in flames. If your playing GSZ it might hurt you. Completely ruins TinFins. It still allows our goyfs and knights to be superior.
So it appears that I'll have a break from judging duties and actually get to jam some Legacy at SCG Nashville. I've actually been trending toward a more controlling and less-toolbox-y build for a while, and this is the current list I'm on:
Aside from needing to fine-tune the mana a bit more (was running 3x Catacomb, 1 Windswept Heath, plus a Savannah instead of one of the Bayous, but realized that I pretty much always want to fetch for black), I'm pretty happy with it even if it is a departure from the usual Knight- and Goyf-heavy lists, which I'm coming to suspect just aren't as strong anymore.Quote:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
About the only thing I find I really want is either a fourth Deathrite or a third Liliana, but the only room I can find is cutting Loam from the main (Sorin is just so good with 3x Souls that he's going to stick around, even though he gets boarded out in a fair number of matchups). Sideboard is also a little bit up in the air, aside from Thalia and Blind Obedience. I've been fiddling with Golgari Charm and finding it to be pretty high-variance even given that it's a sideboard card.
Considering that Horizon Canopy is "shit", would you recommend Monastery as a replacement? I have been avoiding it (and Volrath's Stronghold) because 5 colorless lands seems rough. As of right now I replaced the Canopy with a fetch, which seems like the right call. I already play Treetop Village (like a bawss) which still lets me play my green spells so I think I'll stick with the fetch for now; but I'm interested in the views on Monastery vs. Treetop vs. other utility lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Once I get Karakas, that goes in, but before then I need to fill that slot. Maze of Ith? My focus on Knights is really low, basically just 2 slots (and that's because I don't think there is anything better ATM)
If you're only running 2 Knights, it might be worth just putting in a mana-producing land, since another specialty land is going to throw off your mana base even more.
-Matt
i picked up an interesting thought from the maverick thread that could be used in the rock as well if you use lingering souls
geas cradle + lingering souls into GSZ for sigarda, host of herons
what do u guys think, is it possible go go that route?