Cradle is definitely a possible option at replacing, say, Maze of Ith or something (or Treetop/Monastery, etc.).
We should try it out.
-Matt
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Cradle is definitely a possible option at replacing, say, Maze of Ith or something (or Treetop/Monastery, etc.).
We should try it out.
-Matt
How do you feel about Cabal Pit or Stirring Wildwood?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I did. It's obviously much better in equipment builds, but it's not really that much more useful than Maze in builds without equipment. It was usually win more when I found it, though, even in SFM builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Maybe I missed it. Why exactly is Sorin better than Elspeth? I cannot find the justification, and I am tempted to agree given that the Emblem can be huge with Lingering Souls.
In no particular order:Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
1) Sorin's easier to cast.
2) Creates black tokens with lifelink, instead of more White tokens which die to Dread of Night/Sulfur Elemental.
3) Flying and +3/+3 is good, but is chumped by opposing Souls possibly. +1/+0 to everyone is more damage that will likely get through, especially when we're running Souls.
4) Emblem wins Goyf/Deathrite combat wars
5) Ultimate is an answer to Jace
-Matt
Played in the Legacy Challenge at SCG Charlotte yesterday. Went 2-1-1 with a GSZ/Lingering Souls build, with wins against American Geist (2-0) and UW Countertop (2-1)*, lost against DnT (1-2) and drew against Esper Stoneblade (1-1-1).
*He just scooped game 3 when we were playing for a pack and we were the last officiated match in the hall...but I had a convincing board state at least!
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus (Supposed to be Nihil Spellbomb but I couldn't find any)
SB: 1 Humility
I won every game 1, but I think my sideboard plans are wrong. I generally would side out discard and removal plus maybe Teeg/Maze for bullets and Sorins (roughly 6 in all). Golgari Charm allowed me to regenerate my field against Supreme Verdict, which was nice, while also serving double duty to be able to kill RiP and Counterbalance.
I brought Sorin in for every match and he seemed alright, but I think I made a bad decision in bringing him in against DnT since the tokens did not have enough impact and often just delayed the inevitable. The only game he explicitly won for me was against Countertop where he was able to buff my Souls tokens to fly over a Mirran Crusader. Speaking of Crusader, Sorin's black vampires are no good against him.
I did not include Deed, and thus lost against DnT when I couldn't answer his swarms plus equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, and Feast/Famine all saw the field). Never saw Charms here. Not sure where to put the Deed though, maybe replace Jitte or Chains?
Countertop, DnT, and Esper all came down to Batterskulls, more or less. I'm thinking about including Tower of the Magistrate to fetch with Knight since a lot of the meta relies on Batterskull to win, likely as land #24 (including Maze) and card #61, removing GSZ #3.
Never boarded in Chains, although probably should have against Miracles and Countertop to negate their draw effects. Humility was similarly never played nor seemed like a good idea, except maybe against Geist. Too much equipment meant it always was a bad idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Hmmm..... interesting report i must say. I've been kind of experiencing the same thing. I just feel the unnecessariness for Sorin Lord of Innistrad, I almost feel like it's a win more card. Yes, there can be arguments for the lifelinking vampires and ultimate ability and so on so on..... But does really just give just the win or gives us a better edge on the grindy matches? I feel like there's better things we can be doing to make ourselves more favorable in grindy match-ups or to literally just gain the advantage. We've already figured out one way from Matt, lingering souls. I want to say but not be sure about it, I feel like there's been some DnT creeping up in everybody's meta. I only usually bring in chains against blue draw decks and combo decks. Humility I don't personally think is necessary against many decks, SnT forsure. I think that tower of magistrate is ideal but that means you also have to up your number of knights bc suddenly she has become a tutoring ability for you. And maybe a few gsz bc you will need her available to you throughout your games.
The thing about the rock is which style you want to play, so you have the right synergy. I destructive tempo deck? a control version that has lots of mechanics? or a versatile version that is strong against the meta but weak against border line decks? Once we all get an idea of that I believe that we can make the right changes. If anyone wants to try or get an idea of what i'm running I'll post... but i will make changes by tomorrow though lol
Sideboard:
3 Thalia
3 Extirpate
2 chains of mephistopheles
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charms
3 Humility
Thalia's taxing ability is powerful against combo decks and many other decks.
Extirpate is just uncounterable.
Chains.... too good against bug decks, combo, and any drawing deck
Deeds, I feel are necessary against goblins and merfolks
Charms, are very good against supreme verdict and getting rid of small chump blockers. Also allows us to fight against millions of 1/1 tokens.
Humilty, it's only bc I was found that it was the best way to deal with SnT... but it's also good against nic fit, 12 post, and various decks that put in wtf creatures.
I will be updating though bc Im going to change my main...
With Omni having won the Bazaar of Moxen, i think people are going to be playing it a bit more now.
I honestly think that in this meta, with all the different flavours of combo, every sideboard should probably look like:
2 Golgari Charm
2-3 Thalia
2-3 Gaddock Teeg
With some mix of discard in the main or more in the board. Sad but true.
-Matt
i probably have to agree to this one, but is thalia really needed?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
i am playing tidehollow sculler(3x) in her place, and he has been really good for me, but it seems that thalia would give us the edge over esperblade with her taxing effect, and tidehollow sculler compared to her does not really do that much in that matchup other then being a 1-for-1 most of the time, with not much of a impact on the game as most of the opponents cards give him a 2-for-1
@ matt, what do u think, is sculler viable (leyline of sanctity is no fun as well), or is thalia straight up better in all the scenarios sculler would be used in?
I think Sculler is totally viable, I just feel like Thalia is better. Why?
1) Really good against Miracles. If you're on the play, their Turn 2 Counterbalance now costs 3, etc. Jace comes down on turn 5, etc.
2) Against Storm Combo, Thalia tax is much better than grabbing one card with Sculler. They have to bounce Thalia to go off, meaning they have to burn more cards (usually 2 or more), whereas with Sculler, it only really hurts if you hit a really key card. Otherwise, they can just wait then go off.
3) Against Esperblade, Lingering Souls becomes a Turn 4 play (with us it's probably still turn 3 with DRS), Supreme Verdict is Turn 5 (maybe giving us enough time to get Gaddock Teeg), same with Jace.
4) In other matchups, she's a 2/1 First Strike, which is pretty great, whereas Sculler is a 2/2.
I feel like in the matchups we want hate, Thalia is just better at slowing them down.
-Matt
I'm not sold...I don't think you can compare Thalia to Sculler. Sculler is additional disruption, a way to support your already strong targeted discard plan with the goal of hitting Liliana turn 3. It's not a push-up bra with sweet cleavage, it's a sports bra that keeps things from bouncing out of control.
I feel that sideboarding in Surgical Extraction is much stronger than Thalia against most combo decks. Targeted discard and Hymn/Liliana become ways to win the game alongside Extraction.
@ Mr. Safety: Sculler has been awesome for me from the very first moment i started using them (thank you btw :P)
my only problem with him is that he does not help at all in soe matchups i strugle with, where thalia probably would beat the crap out of my opponent, or at least help more then sculler... specially esper and miracles, but specially esper
the next problem u have to face if using sculler is a leyline of sanctity, in that case you only get a 2/2 vanilla against a show&tell player which sucks
on the other hand sculler is an occasional 2 for 1 specially against combo, and even against storm he is really awesome, but i did still not test thalia in this matchup
i have one question specially for storm matchup when using sculler:
i won a game against storm easily with 2 scullers and a bit of discard with backup for the ETW plan, because i got to get tendrils and past in flames with my 2 scullers thus delaying him a lot because he had no tutors
my question is: could the storm player still get those cards back with a burning wish? (same thing with a chrome mox, is it possible to get the card back with some kind of wish?)
No. They're in the exile zone, not outside the game. Removed from the game zone used to be outside the game, but exile isn't. Only way he can Wish those things back is to grab a Pyroclasm and burninate your Scullers.
Against storm, I feel that the main plan of discard/Liliana/Sculler is brutal, and I don't think Thalia is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
Now, lets talk about this Esper/Miracles nonsense. What exactly is pushing you out of games? Playing the long game isn't really an option against those decks, they excell too much at it. My guess is the problematic cards are Jace
and Terminus.
I've played against Miracles before, and I shaved out 2 games, one close one and the other not so close. The best cards against them are Liliana, Hymn to Tourach, and Gaddock Teeg. Teeg especially takes care of Jace, Terminus, Entreat the Angels, and if you can kill off Mystics you need not worry about Batterskull being hard-cast. I will probably sound like a broken record, but once again you already have strong weapons against them: discard and Liliana. Add to that mix Surgical Extraction (in place of Swords to Plowshares maybe) and you have a pretty sweet, targeted game plan. Swords isn't really that great agains Miracles, you already have Abrupt Decay for most (if not all) of their threats. This is one matchup where I feel that Garruk Relentless and Sylvan Library really shine. Both are just absurd card advantage. The goal with them isn't to gain a marginal advantage, but rather keep them under wraps with some tempo plays and then blast past with big threats like Goyfs and Knights. Lingering Souls is really annoying, but not difficult to overcome, not if you have Zealous Persecution in your sideboard.
The key to Garruk is that he lets you match plays 1-for-1 without using mana, which lets you use your mana to pull ahead with multiple plays a turn. Sylvan Library, ditto. You don't need to invest mana into digging for card quality or even getting an extra card or two if your life total can handle it. Then press your advantage with a beefy threat.
That is what has worked for me against Miracles/Stoneblade variants. They play a similar game plan but their disadvantage is their lack of ability to close games fast (ie Goyf.) Good old Goyf gives you the edge, I think. If you want Thalia (something I'm still working on myself) then I think it's a sideboard option. As an amateur storm player, I HATE THALIA, but I worry about Liliana more than Thalia. Massacre is big-time good against Thalia, and Sculler too honestly. Honestly, against storm it is probably less a matter of which to play and more a matter of 'play both, and how many?'
More than anything, I have realized that I play my deck very closely to Deadguy Ale. I have cruised through that thread and it has helped me devolop my personal list and gameplan. I think you're in a similar boat, especially if you like Sculler so much. Deadguy is much more of a tempo-oriented deck, but still in the 'good stuff' category. I feel that with green for Decay, Goyf, Deathrite, and KotR you can take the best from Junk and the best from Deadguy and make a better deck than either.
EDIT: I also traded into some sweet FNM foil Scullers, which I'm DYING to play with at my next tournament. I am also up to 3 SDT's in my list, and it's made a huge difference (the 3rd replaced a 1-of Library btw.)
Liliana is okay, but they play off the top of their deck far too well. Hymn is strong until they sideboard Leyline of Sanctity.
Teeg is overall the most powerful card in my testing. They MUST use Swords or immediate counter magic to deal with him, and you can bait their removal with Bobs and Goyfs (if they don't have a RiP in waiting).
You do bring up an interesting question...who is better for the Lingering Souls version, Garruk Relentless or Sorin?
Garruk:
-1 time Psuedo removal
-tutor off of a Souls or Dryad Arbor for Knight, Teeg, Goyf, etc
-2/2 wolves or 1/1 Deathtouch Wolves (better to stabilize the board with walls against Batterskull and some aggro)
-Weak ultimate
Sorin:
-1/1 Lifelink Vampires (weak stalling an aggro push or digging out from under burn)
-Emblem wins Goyf wars, accelerates the Souls clock, gains more life
-Relevant Ultimate against Jace and some creatures
I played Garruk as a one-of in the maindeck for about 6 months and he was excellent. Truly, in the meta that we were in with Miracles but no Jund yet, the card was fantastic.
However, with the switch to decks with more Snapcasters, Cliques, Punishing Fires and Lingering Souls, Garruk is a ton more fragile than, say, Sorin. Both cards are very good, don't get me wrong. However, Sorin doesn't die to a single Lightning Bolt, assuming you activate him properly against decks that play Bolt. With Garruk, he dies on the spot to Lightning Bolt, and even though some don't realize it, when he's flipped, he dies to Decay.
Teeg is BY FAR the most powerful card against Storm, Esperblade, AND Miracles. He's very, very good. However, discard won't get you all the way there with Storm decks. Ideally you play Turn 1 Discard, Turn 2 Gaddock Teeg. But, whoever said it is right. They play off the top of their deck. Sure, if you get Liliana going you keep their hand size down so they can't achieve critical mass. However, imagine a scenario where they try to kill off Thalia.
Quote:
2B= burning wish (with tax) for some sweeper/Thalia removal.
Pass turn.
Play sweeper to kill Thalia off.
Pass turn.
Attempt to go off.
Unless they have the bounce or removal in hand, it'll take them two whole turns (sometimes one) to go get the bounce/removal, and then to play it unless they burn a piece of acceleration. Now let's see with Sculler:
As I've learned many, MANY times about playing targeted discard versus counterspells against Storm, they can topdeck their win. It'll happen from time to time. Your discard will mean peanuts. What they hate most are permanent based things they need to go find answers for, since it eats turns, cards, and mana, of which they all want to kill you. Thalia AND Gaddock Teeg is a giant kick in the nuts especially if you have a clock.Quote:
Sculler, taking Infernal Tutor. Pass.
Draw. Probe, Brainstorm/Ponder, find something else. Pass or win.
Sculler attacks, MAYBE you live the dream and discard them again. Pass.
Pass or win.
@ Sorin vs. Garruk
The comparisons are apt. I think you have to see what matchups we're bringing them in against, and which is better.
Garruk's tutoring is pretty great. Mucking a random token to go fetch Knight/goyf is ridiculous. The overrun is good in creature based stalemate matchups, such as Merfolk, Maverick, and Jund if it survived for that long. The ability to muck a creature then poop tokens is also good, but leaves Garruk very fragile. If he started with 4 Loyalty, that'd be different.
Sorin is great since you also produce tokens unaffected by Dread of Night/Plague. Lifelink is relevant sometimes, but the Emblem is VERY VERY good. The emblem changes combat and your clock. Producing Deathtouch Wolves also changes the clock since suddenly you're either sneaking in with the Wolves or using them as blockers. The ultimate is better against Jace decks, which we fear more, and multiple Emblems are pretty good at closing a game out.
In total, I think that with Jund in the meta, as well as Miracle Control, I would want Sorin or Elspeth. If I was to have a third Walker for the Control matchups, it would be Garruk. 2 Sorin 1 Garruk is pretty good, since I can choose to bring in the Garruk against Miracles/other non-Lightning Bolt matchups.
-Matt
ok, so probably my boarding plan is not the best
miracles is ok, i am relatively easily able to beat them, but it seems that i board in the wrong cards against esper
for comparison, would you guys share your boarding plan against esper (i really get crushed by that deck way to often) and also telling which package you run MD
thx in advance
Against Esper, I'm boarding:Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
-2 Thoughtseize
-3 Cabal Therapy
-3 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Maze of Ith
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+3 thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
+1 golgari Charm
+1 Pernicious Deed
Knight is kind of subpar in this matchup, and the discard is only okay especially since the games WILL go long. I feel like ideally, you want to basically kill stuff that's attempting to connect with Equipment, then handle Jace. Teeg locks them out of bomb pieces like Batterskull, Jace, EE, and Verdict, and Thalia slows them down since they're more spell-based than us. Use Ooze to clean up and prevent Snapcaster/Academy Ruins shenanigans. Deed away tokens/Equipment.
Use Sorin to Emblem and make tokens. I'd suggest Emblem, token, token, Emblem. Repeat.
-Matt
-2 Tidehollow ScullerQuote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Zealous Persecution
+2 Lingering Souls
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 Vindicate
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Liliana of the Veil
My list is a couple pages back, for reference.
I am toying with NO-Pro out of the board again, too. Lock the game down with souls tokens and board out Bobs for the Hydra.
Current list:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Life from the Loam
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Arid Mesa
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
Sideboard
2x Lingering Souls
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Vindicate
1x Gaddock Teeg
Alternative Sideboard
2x Lingering Souls
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
Any input on my sideboard/maindeck would be great. Loam makes the list 61 cards, but I feel that against the decks where Loam/Wasteland are good can help give the edge (BUG, RUG Delver, Jund, Esper Stoneblade) It also frees up a slot from my sideboard for the 4th Surgical, which I've been wanting lately.
Any thoughts on Sneak Attack? That card has been kicking my ASS lately. I deal with Show and Tell easily enough with discard, but Sneak Attack plus a single top-decked (or Ponder/Preordain/Brainstorming into one) Grisel/Emmy is just too much. Sculler is great against Show and Tell/Omni, pretty bad against Sneak Attack. I think a 2nd Teeg is probably my answer, and the Natural Order plan works along with Teeg fine even though it's over-priced. It means I don't need to play GSZ to make the singleton work.
Worth pointing out that Canonist is probably the best way to deal with OmniTell, considering they rely heavily on using Cunning Wish to find bounce for hate
With Canonist out (preferably off of SnT), they have to pass turn, EOT Wish for bounce or kill, then go off. Otherwise they can Wish and Bounce/Kill immediately.Quote:
Karakas, Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker
No answer is needed. None of the cards touch this deck expect for opponents naming fetchlands with Pithing Needle.
Oblivion Ring, Angel of Despair, Vendilion Clique, Venser, Shaper Savant
Main deck: Cunning Wish in response to their trigger getting Trickbind. To win immediately you’ll need a second enabler.
Post board: Board in Trickbind. Cunning Wish in response to their trigger getting Firemind’s Foresight. Still in response, get Intuition, Trickbind, and Brainstorm = win.
Humilty, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg
Cunning Wish for Wipe Away/Echoing Truth/Slaughter Pact.
Obviously its important on your turn to take advantage by following up with Thalia, Teeg, or discard...or even Sylvan Safekeeper, oddly enough.
Safekeeper doesn't protect against Wipe Away, but it still forces their hand.