[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Echelon

You forget the part where you have to keep open N mana where N is the number of guys you want to save, turn after turn after turn.

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I don't know about you, but normally when I play Miracles I don't flood the board with guys. I go with Julian's strategy of keeping 3-4 power on the board (or equivalent with DRS) and replacements for those guys in my hand. For some reason, this tends to result in open mana, which I suspect might be fed into Evolutionary Leap. You only need 2 guys for the Vengevine plan, so this plays into the current way I play the match up.

Of course, I could be wrong. I haven't tried emptying my hand into the first Terminus in a while. Does that tend to work out for you?

Honestly, the big problem with this plan is not the open mana, in my mind. It's presuming that you can land the Evolutionary Leap in the first place and that doing so doesn't give them too much time to set up and lock you/find Terminus.

And after that you also have to be able to resolve the creatures you draw.

I don't think it does enough and it needs too many resources to do it. Besides, when slowrolling you probably already have some creatures ready to be dropped in your hand anyways.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

And after that you also have to be able to resolve the creatures you draw.

I don't think it does enough and it needs too many resources to do it. Besides, when slowrolling you probably already have some creatures ready to be dropped in your hand anyways.

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I don't want to be snide, but I can't help but think you aren't reading my posts. If you have a Vengevine, which is the only way this would work against something like Miracles, then it doesn't matter whether you successfully the creatures or not. As soon as they hit the stack, they are "cast", regardless of CB. Thus, the advantage of this set up is that A) it gets you dudes and B) you can get around Terminus and other removal by responding to any of it by saccing your Vengevine (which gets you dudes). You seem way to enamored to the way we're currently playing the deck to realize that this would be a shift in fundamental strategy, not just a change in what cards we're playing.

Again, your critiques are not really hitting the actual problem. The actual problem is not so much with Evolutionary Leap once its in play with some dudes. The problem is A) whether we can expect it to ever hit play in the first place B) whether the 4 Evolutionary Leap and 3-4 Vengevine we need in the side in this scenario screws up other match-ups

I would argue that with the possible exception of Miracles match-ups, this strategy *strictly* inferior to the NO plan. That being said, these sorts of thought exercises are important, because it helps open our eyes to new tech and strategic possibilities. This way, we're ready to pounce when something new comes along.

True. But not with Vengevines (without a way to quickly pitch them to the yard). Hence my glossing over it. Casting 4 CMC creatures with the purpose of sacrificing/recurring them later and keeping mana open in the meantime..? Really..? Come on.

This plan is also strickly inferior and more slot-demanding than the 4-Sage-Build against miracles

Just to stay at the topic: Carsten Kötter was playing OmniTell at the GP Mainevent and lost to S&T into Omniscience/Reclamation Sage, just saying lol

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Originally Posted by Echelon

True. But not with Vengevines (without a way to quickly pitch them to the yard). Hence my glossing over it. Casting 4 CMC creatures with the purpose of sacrificing/recurring them later and keeping mana open in the meantime..? Really..? Come on.

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Yes, really. Not that hard before the first Terminus, honestly. You could be right that we wouldn't have enough time to set up... which I actually pointed out several times in my own posts. I'm not saying the plan is the be all, end all. I'm just saying its a worthwhile thought exercise to think about it and why/how it works (or doesn't).

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This plan is also strickly inferior and more slot-demanding than the 4-Sage-Build against miracles

Just to stay at the topic: Carsten Kötter was playing OmniTell at the GP Mainevent and lost to S&T into Omniscience/Reclamation Sage, just saying lol

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Haven't had a chance to playtest the 4 sage build, so you could be right. I worry that bending over that far backwards kills us elsewhere, but for a GP metagame it could be the right call.

That being said, I would again point out that you should not attempt to be the topic police. Or at least do a better job of it. Discussing adaptations to the core build are indeed "on topic", particularly if they yield insights into what we need. If you don't like this, feel free to ignore the posts/rap about why the rest of us are idiots. I am not *completely* above trolling to bait another excellent rap.

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Originally Posted by IMarques

If you don't like this, feel free to ignore the posts/rap about why the rest of us are idiots. I am not *completely* above trolling to bait another excellent rap.

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I thought he was here just for our entertainment...

@Lemnear: Now rap dammit or we will release the trolls! Daddy wants biscuits to go with his tea!

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I thought he was here just for our entertainment...

@Lemnear: Now rap dammit or we will release the trolls! Daddy wants biscuits to go with his tea!

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Shhhh! Don't tell him! He thinks we value his stunning good lucks and strategic acumen.

Crap, oh, yes. That is what I meant! Lets just hope he doesn't read this.

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Originally Posted by IMarques

Haven't had a chance to playtest the 4 sage build, so you could be right. I worry that bending over that far backwards kills us elsewhere, but for a GP metagame it could be the right call.

That being said, I would again point out that you should not attempt to be the topic police. Or at least do a better job of it. Discussing adaptations to the core build are indeed "on topic", particularly if they yield insights into what we need. If you don't like this, feel free to ignore the posts/rap about why the rest of us are idiots. I am not *completely* above trolling to bait another excellent rap.

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Thanks for calling that light-hearted entertainment for you dear guys "excellent" and maybe even feel amused at times. :)

The topic Police stuff is indeed a habit I picked up as I saw threads like the old Elven one get derailed and try to stop this board going the way of MTGSalvation or MTG-Forum.de where casual and budget talks dominate the topics.

We need to face the fact that this deck has an unfortunate Position in this metagame where it suffers from Combo, Control and even non-blue matchups (Punishing Fire, Tabernacle, etc. every game 1. This is what needs to be adressed and not now we want to kill the few favorable matchups with either NO, Lifedrain-Elf or Vengevine+Leap. I don't see where this deck should suffer from the MB Sages more than from freeing a shitload of slots for Leap and Vengevine

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Thanks for calling that light-hearted entertainment for you dear guys "excellent" and maybe even feel amused at times. :)

The topic Police stuff is indeed a habit I picked up as I saw threads like the old Elven one get derailed and try to stop this board going the way of MTGSalvation or MTG-Forum.de where casual and budget talks dominate the topics.

We need to face the fact that this deck has an unfortunate Position in this metagame where it suffers from Combo, Control and even non-blue matchups (Punishing Fire, Tabernacle, etc. every game 1. This is what needs to be adressed and not now we want to kill the few favorable matchups with either NO, Lifedrain-Elf or Vengevine+Leap. I don't see where this deck should suffer from the MB Sages more than from freeing a shitload of slots for Leap and Vengevine

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4 Sages seems excessive but perhaps a necessary evil...or we could have some NO targets in the main such as Progenitus and Ruric Thar.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This plan is also strickly inferior and more slot-demanding than the 4-Sage-Build against miracles

Just to stay at the topic: Carsten Kötter was playing OmniTell at the GP Mainevent and lost to S&T into Omniscience/Reclamation Sage, just saying lol

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Have there been any proposed builds with 4 Sages? S8ge.dec?

I looked back at the discussions on previous pages and have only seen the calls for people to test it. Wondering if any Visionaries get cut since the goal of so many Rec Sages is to create some pseudo card advantage by destroying stuffs. I'm wondering if some sort of 3-Sage, 1-Hoof, 1-Ruric main would work well. Or 4-Sage. I dunno.

I plan to be in Dallas in a couple weeks for the GP and will do some Legacy side events if possible - I don't mind trying something different. Just about complete with my deck, only one Cradle left :smile:

Reporting back. I won my first Trial with Elves 5-0, then 3-3'ed out of the main event, then split the finals of the Bazaar of Dual Lands (~200+ players; Big Legacy Side Event on Sunday).

Overall a successful weekend....but not with regards to the GP, which really is the only thing that counts :(

Details to follow some time later this week.

I've been running 1 sage MD, 2 sb.

3 seems like enough.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

And how does switching NO's out for other "combo" cards improve consistency?

Near the top of this page, Zombie outlined a number of problems the Elves! deck currently has. Could you explain how your build improves on that? Or how it's better/faster/more efficient then the "Oops, I topdeck NO & win" you strip from the deck?

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So working off the assumption that a deck whose secondary plan involves resolving a 4cc spell with board position doesn't thrive in a metagame where non-combo decks tend to run two out of mass removal, recurring removal or counters, you're asking me to rationalise why switching to a cheaper sac outlet engine that circumvents mass removal, recurring removal or counters might be preferrable? I won't. I dunno. I have no clue whether it plays out or not in practice. Play whatever cards you like.

I will however point out the initial reaction to Deathrite Shaman. Have a nice day.

@Infinitium - That DRS discussion is funny.

This deck has a history of eventually integrating cards that nobody thought would be any good. I didn't know DRS ranked among those cards, but I can recall Mirror Entity, the second Craterhoof over a Regal Force (!), Ruric Thar, and Wren's Run Packmaster all being cards that were dismissed before they were adopted as viable staples. I'm not saying Evolutionary Leap is going to be one of those next cards, but the standard list is fairly unshakable until somebody starts posting results with a drastically different build. I don't see the harm in discussing or even testing alternate lists since there isn't too much to say about the core build.

We all know what the core does. Why not investigate new ideas?

Toss me a list. I'll try it out at a weekly. Then somebody else try out a similar list at their weekly. Report back and let's see what happens. That certainly has to be more interesting than a back and forth discussion about what should or shouldn't be discussed. Also, punting with untested/bad cards always makes for an entertaining read.

Liking the new life loss elf. Completely uncomfortable with 4x sage, I got 1 main and that's I've been needing for now.

What happens if we up the bayou count, drop a NO and 1 hoof and maybe a glimpse or two for thoughtseizes main? Helps against stoneforge, not the worst against combo, can mitigate counterbalance hands too. I don't think I like the idea myself but there are worse adaptations

Sage does obvious work against Miracles and Blade and even proofed it's power against S&T in Lille and you guys still feel more comfortable with running 3-4 copies of the completely untested Drain-Elf instead? Hell, cut the 4 NO and Hoofs and you have 6 free slots outta nowhere and can run Drain-Elf + a set of Sages

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Sage does obvious work against Miracles and Blade and even proofed it's power against S&T in Lille and you guys still feel more comfortable with running 3-4 copies of the completely untested Drain-Elf instead? Hell, cut the 4 NO and Hoofs and you have 6 free slots outta nowhere and can run Drain-Elf + a set of Sages

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I'm torn on that elf, but my logic is that he's strictly worse than DRS if you're trying for recursion via Wirewood and needs to many other elves to serve as the end of a Glimpse turn, even if he is easier to cast than Craterhoof in those situations. Certainly not as good as NO, because "oops I win" is so much easier when you just need 1-3 guys, rather than a whole Glimpse set up. Old information for most of you, I know, but I put this here for the benefit of anyone who has not obsessively read the past few hundred pages.

How did Rec. Sage prove itself in Lille for those of us not watching the feeds? What cuts do you recommend? The same ones you listed a few weeks ago, or have you come up with something new?

I don't understand. You want play 4 Reclamation Sage MD? For what? Only coubterbalance? The problem isn't CB, it's top. If you fear CB, play Cavern of Soul.