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I wonder why TC wasn't banned in Pauper as well during the last announcements axedrop in near all formats. Wasn't Delver + Swiftspear + Probe + TC + lighning bolt a bit toooo obvious? ... sorry guys ... missed that the B&R management is handled by the same Hive Mind of a company which printed the shit in the first place because their development and testing obviously sucks
"I'm so fucking mad that two awful cards that I likely would never have an excuse to play with or against are banned." -QuizzlemanizzleQuote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
While I would appreciate more things being unbanned on general principle, I can see the reasoning behind not doing so. Would unbanning Mind Twist really do anything to help the format? Would it inspire new archetypes or revive old ones? Probably not. It would either do nothing, or someone would be an asshole and shove it into an existing brew on the basis of "interesting variant". There's no reason for them to unban it, and there are issues of safety if they do, so why go there?
Black Vise and Mind Twist are both cards where they either would do nothing, or would increase the amount of bad games that get "played". There simply isn't a positive, "format became more fun" kind of case to be made for either card.
#stillexpectinggreatthingsoutofmodernQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Modern has been around for four years and has at no point in time has it been anything less than complete shit. I'm sorry you still have hopes for it.
Why? You aren't going to play with them anyways. It's like complaining if "White Knight" was banned. Wouldn't matter at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
This made me miss Demigod Red and Blood Knight ;_;Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
Swiftspear is an uncommon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Most Pauper players suck at deckbuilding and just netdeck (well, this is true of players of all formats...) and a lot of the commonly played decks were poorly designed and didn't take proper advantage of Treasure Cruise.
Netdecking, the biggest crime in MtG.Quote:
Originally Posted by haxorz
Is it even possible to design a deck that is actually competative and does not exist already? Making like anything you throw together netdecking?
True statement, but that doesn't mean it won't someday be worth playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
When my kids (who have yet to be conceived) express an interest in competitive Magic, I suspect I will be encouraging them to play Modern and not Legacy...
Sorry, my comment was misleading. I should have said "... Most Pauper players suck at deckbuilding and just netdeck bad decks and/or design bad decks (well, this is true of players of all formats...)". There's nothing wrong with netdecking. For a Legacy example, 4 Ponder Miracles is a beautiful deck that I am proud to netdeck. But there are some players that just copy Philip's 75 without understanding the motivation behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
For a Pauper example, one of the most played decks is this awful UR "delver" deck: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...r-16313#online. Yes, Mulldrifter, Quicksand, Delver, Sea Gate Oracle, Flame Slash... all in the same deck. Ewww.
Let's be fair here. The principal of the banned list really should be that a card is legal unless there is a specific, evidenced reason why allowing it to be played does bad things to Magic tournaments. If they banned "White Knight" then yes, of course there should be an outroar over the violation of this principal even though no one would play it anyway. If you really believe that Black Vise and Mindtwist would see no play (and I'm not sure I agree with that) then they would not interfere with the format and should come off.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
I expect you will see them come off eventually, actually. Look at the last year or two in Vintage and Legacy. But, Wizards is understandably careful about messing around with the B&R List. Give it time.
The ban list is at its best when it is small, out of the way and doing only the task that is required of it and no more. Holding things that are on that list for no good reason other than they where demonicly broken in times long since past is criminal now. I know why Vice is on that list, that snapshot in time is also long since past us. I know why making someone discard their whole hand is bad too, but Mana Drain is not a thing anymore and even if it was, does anyone really think thatt the two would see much play together in Legacy these days?
You can argue that Recruiter is banned on logistical reasons and I can begrudging accept that, but you have a much hardr time making me argree that some of the other cards on that list are there for any good reason save for softening the blows that will come with future bannings. Padding to stop coplaining online when action is needed. Something I feel is wrong.
This prisoner exchange thing they have going on is unbelievably stupid.
Where is that actually coming from that they have this police?Quote:
Originally Posted by HrishiQQ
Would Drain see play? Boy howdy, would it. There is no tempo swing like a Drain swing. You have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
There's something else going on, too. Drain costs $100.00 at the moment, and if it sees any Vintage play it's only a 2 or 3 of nowadays because there are so many other competing counterspells. Release it into Legacy as a 4-of, where it would be a better counterspell, and you will see that price EXPLODE to $500 or more very, very quickly. Who's interests get served by this?
Go take a listen to So Many Insane Plays, the episode where they go over a bunch of potential cards for unrestriction and talk about this price issue with Library of Alexandria. As a one-of, it's got a hefty price. If you let people run 4, the price suddenly vomits upwards. Who benefits from such a policy?
"But but we shouldn't ban cards based on cost." I agree. But, it's myopic to petition in favor of moving things off the list without attention to the broader consequences. Luckily, there are plenty of safe cards to take off the list (like Mind Twist) that are very easily obtained and will not explode in price of released.
Such policy doesn't exist. Remember when Mental Misstep was banned? and when Land Tax was unbanned? Don't get too hung up on Black Vise and Mind Twist when Dragons of Tarkir has better cards to offer.Quote:
Where is that actually coming from that they have this policy?
When was the last time they unbanned anything without also banning something in the same breath? How often does that happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Also on Drain. I am not suggesting unbanning it, I was musing on how much play it would see and I am not really sure how much it would. As for its price, it's not on the list, that issue can be solved. If Drain is the only thing from my post that you want to force on though, I feel you have undersold the points I was wishing to make.
Please, if your going to go out if your way to prove me wrong, target the point overall because I feel it is a very important one. The reserve list should be short, effective and out of my way. Nothing more.
The list should be as small as humanly possible. If it were up to me, Mind Twist, Hermit Druid, Black Vise, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Flash, Balance, Mystical Tutor, Memory Jar, Oath of Druids, and Flash would all come up, probably in that order. (You could take off the Draw 7s too if Legacy wanted a restricted list, but if not, then you need to keep them all banned because holy crap 4x Twister 4x Wheel .dec). But that's just because I would prefer playing Vintage-lite, it might not be the best idea for everyone. Whoever is actually managing the banned list has to cater to everyone, not just players like me, so they have to consider whether any given change is good or bad for the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Your "point" was that you think there's a hostage situation going on where they exchange bannings for unbannings, and I don't think they do that.
This used to be my feeling as well, then WotC increased the size of the list by 22% and now I just don't care about it anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
They could have added "Remove this card unless you are drafting" from those Conspiracy cards... Now they just clutter up the banned list. :mad:
I agree. Keep it short and only put relevant cards on it. At least in Recruiter's case, you can make a good argument for it being broken whereas you can for Vise/Twist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Ever since the first dude thrown his Apes and Bolts into deck with Taigas, I guess all was said in aggro department.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
The horror of netdecking is the most criticized by the people who "build" their decks by throwing all the cards with theri favourite art into one pile, than they add some amount of various 5/5, 7/7 and 6/8 beef and finish this construction with not enough lands and zero color fixation. Then they cry and whine when any solidly designed decks with enough River Boas kills them 10:0 in less than hour. /nothing to see here
Then you'd unban Flash twice. Also... no, please no Balance.Quote:
If it were up to me, Mind Twist, Hermit Druid, Black Vise, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Flash, Balance, Mystical Tutor, Memory Jar, Oath of Druids, and Flash would all come up, probably in that order.
Balance, Flash, Oath of Druids ? Are you guys kidding ? Did you ever played against those cards, getting balanced from Burning Long was enough frustrating. Playing 4 x Balance in white Stax - is much more painful then vs MUD on draw in Vintage.
Flash ? - do we need 1 mana less, instant speed, one sided S&T - no also thanks - same for Oath of Druids.
Some of cards are on the banned list not only because they are copy/pasted from T1 Format.
Mind Twist is playable, Pox decks would consider it when they run Dark Ritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Black Vise would also be fringe playable.
There are way more "unfun" cards in legacy than that. If Black Vise is unfun than what about The Rack? If Mind Twist is unfun than what about Hymn to Tourach? By that measure what about Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Wasteland, Nether Void, The Abyss, Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance..Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
The argument that there are worse offenders in the wild is like saying we should release the mugger who's jailed for stabbing someone because ISIS exists or the Israeli army blew up a city for kicks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
No it is not. The legacy banlist should contain only cards that break format rules or warp the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Neither Mind Twist nor Black Vise have that potential and thus should be unbanned immediately.
No it is not. If that comparison was valid then I expect you to heavily lobby to ban all the cards worse than MT/BV now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
The legacy banlist should contain only cards that break format rules or warp the format.
Neither Mind Twist nor Black Vise have that potential and thus should be unbanned immediately.
In some regards I can see a point for Mind Twist. However, I can't quite grasp how a card that punishes you just for having more than four cards in hand is fair and dose not warp at all the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
Does not follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
The current case is:
Card is banned. Does not affect the format.
Probable unbanning scenarios that I think are realistic:
1. Card does not affect the format.
2. Number of bad games will increase.
What I don't think will happen:
3. The format will become more interesting.
=> I think it should stay banned. We're talking about inaction here, not setting a standard. Cards worse than MT/Vise are legal in the format and have been shown to do nothing, so we can also be inactive towards them.
I'm not thinking in terms of "Set a standard, ban/unban cards that fit/don't fit." It's not an argument I'm making at all.
All I'm doing is taking a suggested action (unbanning a certain card) and evaluating the (in my mind) probable results of it. I don't see positive EV in any of them (I don't think banlist length is of any value), so I suggest that we don't take them. All there is to it.
The Rack's mana investment is the same as Black Vise but The Rack requires more investment (usually in cards) to see value (as damage). I suspect Burn would immediately add 4 Black Vise if it were unbanned. It is exactly the type of low investment, repeatable damage card Burn would want and it also gets around the most effective Burn-hate (Chill, Circle of Protection: Red).Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
I believe it is healthy for the format's dedicated control deck (Miracles) to have an even-positive matchup against Burn (an omnipresent, budget friendly deck) because Miracles also keeps fast combo in check. In a format where Burn rides a first turn Black Vise to victory against Miracles most of the time, why play Miracles?
It's not. It's very fucking unfair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
Bad magic players will come in with their bullshit ignorant statement of if it costs 5 it better win the game. Or when will there ever be a scenario of 5 mana and 4 cards in opponents hand and youre not dead???1!? All retarded arguments. Most of these badsies dont know how good the card is because they have never played with or against it. Another great bad excuse is what decks would run it? Any deck that can get to 4 or more lands, wants a game winning bomb that must be countered, and has access to a fetch for a swamp. Is it be all end all of every deck ever? No. It will be pretty shitty often compared to, say a hymn. But when it isnt? It's absolutely a fucking blowout.
Keep that variance no skill needing PoS out of the format. PLSTYBAI
Having to mulligan into a somewhat clunky draw that you could make work with tight play and the opponent landing T1 Vise is the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
sometimes it amazes me that people are unable to think about the potential of cards like Mindtwist if paired with Elves (and Cradle) or Cloudpost to blow you out turn 3 in a fucking unfun way. Black Vise paired with Stasis to die slowly or with Stifle/Wasteland/Delver sounds VERY FUN...Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
mulliganing to a clunky hand ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
and getting belched on the draw is worse.
getting delver,daze,natty flip,force, waste, stiled is worse.
getting griselderped is worse.
Pretty sure I'd rather have my burn opponent top deck Black Vise rather than Lava Spike, Rift Bolt, Bolt, Chain Lightning or Fireblast.
Black Vise is a viable finisher in prison strategies, unfortunately Chalice 1 is one of the best plays a legacy prison deck can make since the format allows all the degenerate blue cantrips
And Lava Spike is a skill tester? Delver? Show and Tell? GTFO with these stupid skill arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
1) he was talking about viseQuote:
Originally Posted by menace13
2) lol @ any deck that can fetch a swamp playing it. Though there is an equal opportunity dunce suggesting ELVES would play the thing when that deck won't even play Collected Company.
Collected company is unimpressive in Elves because of the density of non-creature cards, the actual impact of the creatures put into play with Company, the presence of Glimpse as a CA engine and the manacost being a problem against sweepers harming your manadevelopment.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
This is totally different to Mindtwist which would serve as a SB card against combo/control for Elves which already run Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy for those.
Apples and Oranges
Yeah, the deck runs TS and CT out of the SB to hit specific problems. They aren't saving up for a big blowout, especially one at random that may not even hit the card they fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The point of comparing to CC was that if the deck won't run double GSZ for 1 with upside at instant speed when every card currently in the deck is either an elf, a card that gets more elves, or a wincon, it certainly isn't running a tapout at sorcery speed counterspell target.
Even post-post-Urborg-twist you isn't that scary, or any more so than Hymn at least. On the draw you probably still have at least two cards left if it resolves, they've done nothing to the board, they've tapped out, and you can counter it or potentially be playing something like souls/punishing fire/loam.
Mind Twist sucked to play against when people would build decks that wanted to double ritual-twist you turn one, but such a strategy is so dangerous against today's streamlined legacy decks as to be not worth worrying about. I am pretty sure the card was banned before FOW was printed.
Vise has more potential to be annoying, but again decks are so streamlined nowadays that if you are locked under a vise, the lock probably lost you the game already anyway. You just die sooner than waiting for a mishras factory to peck you to death.
There are a number of cards (Mana Drain, Vampiric Tutor, Tinker) that I have seen people cite as not that offensive, and candidates to potentially unban. Those 3 are examples of cards that I would play 4 of in Legacy from the time they became legal again, until the time they are banned again, because they are miles ahead of other available power level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
As far as Mind Twist and Black Vise, they should have definitely come off years ago. I really don't understand unbanning Worldgorger Dragon and leaving these cards banned. Mind Twist, while a powerful card, pales in comparison to other available Legacy strategies. Mind Twist in Elves' sideboard is cute, and certainly a novel idea, but it's nowhere near the concern that more broken spells are. You want to spend your 3rd or 4th turn Mind Twisting me instead of casting Show and Tell, Ad Nauseam, or Natural Order? Fantastic. I'm all for allowing somebody to make me discard a few cards, rather than losing on the spot to a more broken spell.
Wait, what? So let's say you are Mind Twisted for 4 on Turn 3 against Elves, you have a decision to make: 1. Do You counter it, or do you play against a board full of elves and the opponents hand by topdecking outs?Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
You're not dead on the Spot, but not many decks are winning after MINUS 4 (FOUR) random Cards. I thought Treasure Cruise showed people what happens when you can win the card advantage battle massively in one card.
Worldgorger Dragon is a 3 Card Combo which dies to Grave Hate, Removal, Counterspells, Stifle, Enchantment Removal (and Wasteland if your Wincon is Nephalia).
I don't want to get in the middle of this.
But Treasure Cruise did not cost 5 mana. The two are as similar as a clover leaf and a bar of soap.
Elves is a deck that is designed from the ground up to generate mana fast. It's design space is occupied by cards that do this instead of counters and removal. So it is perfectly within its range to do broken things on turn 3 (like win, for example). Unless you are talking about Ancestral Recall, don't bother comparing anything to Treasure Cruise which required little design space to do its thing.
Hell, I would go so far as to say that for 5 mana, discarding four cards at random from my opponent's hand is not even a strong play.