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Unlike my fellow discussion Partner and me, you manage to spend a whole Paragraph and more than 100 words without targeting the topic instead of the user.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I doubt that Double Tendrils is any good outside of the discard-and-exile-scenario to justify running 2 rather than a single EtW :/
@Mindlash
Props for the effort to pick up all those quotes.
I don't use a 9th Fetchland, the Abrupt Decays and lands are usually SBed in for otherwise dead disruption, vs Goblins + Thalia for instance there's no reason to keep 3 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy in the deck while vs Miracles and Counterebalance you can substitute an Island and a Swamp for a Tropical Island and a Bayou because they don't play Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
I cut Gitaxian Probe when I've either seen the opponent's MD hate game 1, for instance Thalia or Teeg, or I've seen the opponent's SB hate game 2, for instance Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amathyst, where I can then utilize Cabal Therapy with more accurate information.
I don't SB out Pre-Ordain as much as other people seem to, I prefer it to Ponder quite often because I tend to lead with Fetchlands vs Wasteland decks so the guaranteed card filtering via Scry is more consistent.
@Lemnear
How do you justify comparing DRS vs TES and DRS vs ANT and generalize that it does nothing vs the archetype as a whole? Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.
As it is, after having cut Ad Nauseam, I'm strongly considering Thoughtseize over Duress just to be able to blindly hit Thalia or Vendilion Clique.
I DID differ TES and ANT in regards to DRS and played against DRS with the later and already explained my points about the 2 damage and 1 exiled card per turn, if you just chain cantrips for 2-3 turns to fill your graveyard (and that all from the perspective of ANT, like the Double-IT-topic Mindlash picked up). While the card can sure be an annoyance, DRS is far from being a gamebreaker or we can discuss Knight of the Reliquary -> Bojuka Bog out of Maverick and Crop Rotation -> Bog out of Elves too and due to my experience the issue with DRS is a minor one so I used the hyperbole to comment on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Hm...mentioning the 2 from DRS damage while advocating Thoughtseize seems like a problem to?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
He also said that he plays not TES only and the way to beat DRS was aimed at ANT. At least it works for ANT. TES has some more options (obviously).
Well no problem :-) I just can't stand peeps talk shit and twist other peeps words. This thread gets a pain in the ass more and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
People claim some weird things and stuff...I had to re-read my post like ten times cause I thought: well...it is tutor chain?! But this other guy..he can't be that dumb can he?!
Sometimes I really get confused by this shit...
I was trying hard to understand what's your point, but then I gave up. So, DRS is new Sanctuary Cat. I wish I new it before I bought them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Look, double IT FTW may mean anything. If you have mana and cards available for IT chain, then DRS does nothing. If, for whatever the reason you need to play PiF combo (e.g. been hit by BSkull), then the fact that DRS exiles card may be of importance. (And in this case you need two ITs unless you wish to rely on PiFed cantrips... which might be exiled on previous turns.) This might become problem when games last longer, because DRSx2 eat your grave, while Hymn+stuff eats your hand and Decays hits onto-the-battlefield sandbagged LEDs and Pierces screw your cantrips/Rituals or you know whatever the gold fish decided to do.
Basically I was opposing Lemnears statement that DRS does nothing against PiF. Even if it was a hyperbole (which is unlikely, go look up his vehemence on this matter), it still isn't true, because PiF is a graveyard engine and DRS hits cards in gy. Pedobear approved.
I'd sig it.Quote:
Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.
Subject has nothing more to add to the point testified, he agrees with the protocol, and he leaves in a stable condition.
If you are forced for whatever reason: DRS does nothing against PiF...never! It just can't because of the fucking rulebook and priorities if you play it right!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
And you don't tutorchain into win and don't start with all tutors in hand....you tutor into tutor into pif (add 2 mana and 1 tutor in deck for an active DRS)....damn whats wrong with you? How is that hard to achieve?!
Nobody has a problem with you beeing new to storm...the problem is you acting like a dick...thats all...
I know this is sort of futile since all of these Storm lists are so nailed down and there is little wiggle room... However, I am still really new to the deck and would like to hear what people think about the 75 I've decided on. I've decided on UBr ANT because I really like the idea of more business in the form of another 2 mana tutor. Also... You guys are all here arguing with each other anyway, you might as well tell me what you think of my deck while you're here :P
Exactly how horrible is the singleton Telemin Performance idea? I have never seen anyone do it and it is really tempting to mise blowouts without needing Storm, like if your hand gets stripped and you rip a BT.
x4 Brainstorm
x4 Ponder
x4 Gitaxian Probe
x2 Preordain
x4 Cabal Ritual
x4 Dark Ritual
x4 Duress
x3 Cabal Therapy
x4 Infernal Tutor
x2 Burning Wish
x1 Past in Flames
x1 Ad Nauseum
x1 Tendrils of Agony
x4 Lion's Eye Diamond
x4 Lotus Petal
x4 Polluted Delta
x3 Scalding Tarn
x1 Bloodstained Mire
x2 Underground Sea
x1 Badlands
x1 Volcanic Island
x1 Swamp
x1 Island
*SB*
x1 Tropical Island
x2 Dread of Night
x3 Xantid Swarm
x3 Abrupt Decay
x2 Chain of Vapor
x1 Tendrils of Agony
x1 Telemin Performance
x1 Emtpy the Warrens
x1 Thoughtseize
If they take out the ITs with PiF on stack, you can't playthem, amirite? check rulebook, you little twit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
[awaits the bash out "but you don't need two ITs, you just tutor chain"]
Which clearly means that DRS DOES something as he forces you to make a different play. And sometimes (against a real opponent, not your kindergarten brother), this may be difference betwen winning and losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Are you seriously asking me why there is trouble to achieve something in a non-goldfish world?Quote:
....damn whats wrong with you? How is that hard to achieve?!
Fixed for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Btw, you idiot, I really know how to play IT chains and I really won through DRS more times than you'd get laid. But reading statements like "DRS does nothing" when it clearly does something makes me wonder whom are those ppl behind their profiles.
Also, find a girl. It'll help you to calm down.
edit:
I played some :b::b::b: sorcery that reads "remove up to three cards from their library" and it had massive kicker and then it took out seven or so. I'm not sure if this card is better, but basically I'm not really thrilled of both of them.Quote:
x1 Telemin Performance
My opinion on some of the cards discussed:
I don't really see a reason for Badlands with only Past in Flames (and possibly an Empty somewhere). The only time I'd consider it is if I was playing no green SB and several EtW in the board.
I can live with 1 green dual MD & 1 SB or with 1-2 SB and none main depending on your sb space.
Someone said basics had no use; reallllly? I would never play less than 1 Island and hardly ever less than 1 swamp in ANT.
Iīm not a fan of Gemstone Mines since much of ANTīs strength comes from strong cantrips, part of which is derived from a lot of fetchlands.
All in all I like 1 Island, 1 Swamp, 2 Sea, 1 Volc (I only cut it in UBw(g) which isn't worth it atm anyways), 9 Fetch and then a fetch/2nd island/green dual as 15th/16th lands depending on the meta and your sb plans. The 1st Mox as 16th land (or 15th in a Wish build) is not the worst, but I'd rather stay away from that card.
I would only board Defense Grid if I was playing chant effects, it never quite convinced me in a UB(r) build.
Xantid Swarm on the other hand is a card I really like if I expect SnT decks (Or better: Counters + Leyline decks) and Merfolk.
As for the Telemin Performance/Sadistic Sacrament/Extract, only play them when you expect loads of combo (in which case a non-white combo deck is a bad meta choice).
While I think Burning Wish is insane in Doomsday and good in TES I find it mediocre in ANT since having to to BW->GT->PiF->GT for the preferred engine is quite weak. I like 1-2 Grim Tutor over 4 Preordain myself but the 16 cantrip version is definately not bad. I haven't tested enough LDV to give a real opinion, but usually the card exites me and then dissapoints in testing (mainly tried to make UB DDFT builds work).
I think Personal Tutor is close to playable in UB Doomsday, but not anywhere near there in ANT, I'd much rather have Grim Tutor here.
I don't think Shaman is a consideration for us, since it turns dead cards on (and it takes too much space in the board for what it does imo). It is definately not "nothing" against us either (although it basicly is nothing versus TES). Yes, we can frequently win around it. But it puts a strain on my options more often than I'd like.
What's your testing ground? I find it extremely annoying (especially for the opponent) to play with this card on MWS, thus I didn't test it much.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
Maybe in 16 cantrips it may be good. IDK, I played 16 cantrips just for a while, because I had bad luck with it, always just durdling and durdling, unable to find anything.Quote:
I think Personal Tutor is close to playable in UB Doomsday, but not anywhere near there in ANT, I'd much rather have Grim Tutor here.
Exactly my thoughts. But seen how this makes some ppl mad, I'd rather admit that he it does nothing, before Mindlash collapses.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
It's so cute seeing you in rage...calm down bro. It is not my problem, if you are having problems with DRS :-) Going down to insult me in RL shows your real skill in magic as well as in argumentation. Got me there...I give up :-/Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
And quit your goldfishin shit pls...no one who can play the deck and should be considered an equal discussion partner should be goldfishin anyways...so stop insulting us around the corner.
God dammit...the Italian back in time could at least play the deck without problems without bragging like a child posting shit or like they are menstruating....
You started with the "D" word, so eat your own medicine. Also, I don't brag about DRS and I mainly don't care of the card, and if you could read, you'd already notice it. But what I dislike is that people here act like DRS has no ability, which is definitely not true and sometimes these abilities are annoying. Thus I made some examples when they may matter - not that I always lose to them and then gonna cry to my mama.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
If you fail to understand this, you may just as well fuck off since then you'd be much better discussion partner than now.
Amazing, how you prepare to manouver yourself in a position with all those cards active even if I can't come up with a current metagame deck which runs Pierce + Hymn. Reality is somewhere between goldfishing and creating such scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I have no clue why a simple hyperbole I picked to describe the low impact DRS had in the ANT Matches I played, caused so much hatred.
I seriously doubt anyone would have the Balls insult me that way face to face ;)
Stop acting like babies, both of you.
1. We're on combo. It's a risky strategy and if the opponent draws a God hand, we just lose. No tuning or mad play skill can prevent that. So don't waste your time trying to figure out how to beat FoW, FoW, Pierce, Hymn, Deathrite, Deathrite, Land, Land or stuff like that.
2. Goldfishing is very useful to get a general idea of what a combo deck is capable of (familiarizing yourself with a list) and helps a lot to tune a mana curve. A small kid from Nijmegen had only a couple of hours goldfishing with TES as combo experience, but went on to reach the finals of the Dutch Nationals last fall. Goldfish that! But proper play testing and tournament practice of course help more to figure out the finesse of the deck.
3. Deathrite Shaman is a nuisance. If you are on the EtW plan, you might lose to it. If you cantrip forever, you might lose to it. But most of the time you will be able to play around it just fine. Stuff like Thalia or an active Liliana are much more dangerous.
4. Did I really read about the idea of adding Deathrite to ANT itself? That's just rediculous. It makes your deck slower and less consistent in going off. Also it makes opposing creature removal relevant. Why on earth would you want that?
Whoa looks like this is ringside! At least you guys sparked some non BW discussion.
While I have been beaten by DRS before I must say it doesn't put near the pressure that t1 mom brings.
On additional tutors I've been dedicating more attention to LDV lately and I agree with an earlier comment that tops plus vault is very good. Vault takes some preparation but now that I'm used to the thought processes it's damn powerful. Taking this further vault and CoV are great together, which leads me to DRS and even other single hate pieces. I believe LDV + top + CoV main is what we want to be doing right now in UBr storm. It's so natural for the deck, preserves the more resilient manabase and facilitates wins without the graveyard. EtW vs ad naus depends but both should be in our 75.
I've never tried personal tutor but I can see it being useful in light of recent performances by LDV. Only issue is if it's better than another LDV since that is cast EoT so actually costs less than PT. That and it can't tutor CoV for my list. Plus is it can more easily allow you to go off the same turn and provides a shuffle effect. I would be interested in experiences since 2 LDV in hand is far worse than 2 IT and I'd wager worse than LDV +PT (reason for the split?).
Telemin performance I just don't get would you mind elaborating? Are you trying to deck yourself for PiF or deck them? What's the appeal over ad nauseam which is on color?
Posting from my phone..
Deathrite shaman by itself is not a big problem is the life total is high. Basically it is just pressuring the pif line of play, so you may have to opt for the ad nauseum. I would not call it a very strong threat, but it is something. Its probably less good against storm than it is against reanimator.
I think TES is a very good deck, but I was wondering if there are meta games where ANT is better than TES and vice versa?
That question got me thinking of possibilities, so I looked at some tournament reports. Burning wish and cabal therapy numbers have increased to put it plainly and without making a distinction of two different decks. Death and Taxes has increased its top 8 finishes and Maverick is still putting up strong numbers, so this is probably why cabal therapy and burning wish have seen more top 16 finishes. I think it would be hard to use less than four duress in a metagame so full of blue. I also think since tokens have not been on the seen for a while the engineered explosives and pernicious deeds have not been played as much making empty the warrens better.
Four maindeck thalias is still much less than ten main deck counter spells, so it would be hard for me to cut duress in favor of playing more cabal therapies in the main. I use one in the s/b. They are still going to bring in mindbreak trap, so that will possibly cause you to dig for more discard after a cabal therapy. The numbers are hard justify keeping the duresses in. I think I normally keep in two. I also can't really imagine trying to play without a massacre.
Silence can solve some problems, but you are left with much less information. I would think the show and tell matchup would be difficult. I have played tes and versions of ant with burning wishes, but it has been many years.
Oh, I didn't know that all these spells must be in a same deck! Also, you started to be anal about DRS, so where's the trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
There's no hatred, dude.
Yes, I think that none of you would dare to insult me face to face. In fact I think you'd start to shit concrete the moment I'd enter the same room. At least it's the usual reaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I want to wish for it in the Storm mirror and against High Tide. It seems sort of marginal but I play in area with a good amount of combo so I was thinking of trying it out the next tournament I go to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
It definitely sucks that the opponent gets to see it coming and has a whole turn to react though...
This is interesting too... But it doesn't instagib people the way Telemin Performance does. That might just be win more though, Sacrament is easier to cast and basically wins the Storm mirror if you take their MD Tendrils and any Burning Wishes or Empties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Sadly it does nothing after their EtW. Also, if they play 3-4 BW + ToA/EtW, you pretty much do nothing, unless you play it with kicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_L
It was a funny card, but definitely not worthy a sb slot.
Oh, I also tried some similar card, it is also a BBB or 1BB card and it removes a card from their library and you may play it. Much more funny than really useful, but the one time I played opponents AdN or PiF or whatever, it was juicy.
I see, it might be a fun way to steal a few games as a wish target so I'd be interested in hearing how it went just for laughs. The biggest issue is giving them a turn since it does nothing to the board state or their hand so they could combo off and kill you in response to your latent kill.