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If you're powering up for Mind Twist, why not power up for NO and kill your opponent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I mean, I see argument for Twist being shitty to play against. Unban it, and if it is a god awful menace, ban it again. I want the spice to flow.
-Matt
Plus when they ban it again, they'll have to unban another card in accordance with the hostage exchange program! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
The good old Double Ritual into Twist argument again... Something something ad nauseam...
Love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
-Matt
I've seen a couple of decks mentioned that might play Mind Twist in some capacity, like U/B Tezz, some weird MUD, I see Elves up there, but I haven't seen Pox mentioned. Think it'd find a home there?
doubtful. Pox doesn't make a whole lot of mana. They'd rather have efficiency like in hymn. Between Smallpox and wasteland they lose a lot of their own landsQuote:
Originally Posted by Scott
because you can only play 4 NOs to throw Ruric Rhar on the field against Combo turn 2/3? good luck storming or S&Ting w/o a handQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Mind Twist for 4 on turn 3 is far from busted in a format that has most combo decks winning on turn 3 or before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel
Also Mind Twist is a bad top deck in midrange games.
Mind Twist is worse than Hymn to Tourach until you get at least 4 mana. Mind Twist is good , fringe playable and therefor should not be banned. The comparison to Treasure Cruise is non-sense.
Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, MindTwist for 4 is a good turn 1 play but it is only a 3 for 4.
can you guys please stop with the casual Ritual -> Mindtwist bullshit to make a point? Like in Vintage (mana artifacts) the broken part about Mindtwist is dropping PERMANENT mana quickly and then put your opponent into topdeck mode against your mana-advantage on board. A 4-card-swing possible in decks like Elves without a restiction like Hymn to Tourachs double black manacost is insane. People ran away with the +2 cardadvantage of Treasure Cruise and in terms if Mindtwist we don't consider 1-for-3ing or 1-for-4ing your opponent remotely dangerous in the right shell?
In Elves it is a sideboard play at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And the later you draw mind twist the worst it gets. What good is a mind twist in Elves for 8 when your opponent only has 2 cards in hand? Nobody would consider Mind Warp or Rakdos' Return in Elves even with all the mana you can make.
Mind Twist and Treasure Cruise are not comparable. Treasure Cruise is almost always good, Mind Twist is only good when you have lots of mana and your opponent equally as many cards in hand and no way to interact.
You act like a turn 3 Mind Twist for 4 is any good. Turn 3!! In a format with Force of Will and any counterspell. Fact is that Elves would rather cast a Natural Order or a big GSZ to win than casting Mind Twist.
And just assuming that the big Mind Twist on turn 3 works out, that is fine. That is well within the boundaries of the format and not unfair at all. A 4 for 1 on turn 3 is hardly any different than a control deck casting a Terminus, Toxic Deluge or whatever on turn 3.
If you actually read Lemnear's post, he's talking about the card's applications in the combo mirror primarily, where Elves typically suffers because of contradictory requirements of their different engines and disruption. In the context of the combo mirror especially, Mind Twist is Natural Order 5-8 (and NO for Ruric at that, meaning if you get it for 3 on Turn 2, that's actually amazing while NO for Hoof on T2 is usually lackluster), so you can tune your deck so the whole supports a coherent gameplan, so that cards like the same game actions. Meanwhile it also scales to be Hymn for less godlike draws, and Hymn is a good card. 2B is a far preferable cost for Elves (and MUD) than BB ever will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
Moreover, many Legacy decks just don't have much in the way of raw draw, so hitting them for 3 or so can easily give them a ticket to Wontcomebackville.
I want to say clear some things.
A Comparison to Treasure Cruise is nonsense . I don't want to compare them i just want to say: Turn 3 Treasure Cruise is +2 cards and was very good, and Turn 3 Mindtwist out of Elves for 4 is -3 cards for your opponent (including that you lost the Mind twist), which is similar in terms of power, not the ratio power/mana cost, etc. Both Plays, are probably winning you the game in the long run. Right?
I know Ritual, Ritual, Mind Twist is only a 3 for 4, that's why i talked about elves with their permanent mana sources.
Mind Twist is worse than hymn until you get at least 4 mana. In Elves, you get very fast to the point where you have it.
I'm assuming no Elves Player cuts his NO's for Twist, so they can also bring in another must-counter, and Natural Order Later. Either they counter it (One less counter for NO) or you no for sure they don't have a counter because they don't have a hand.
tl;dr: IF Mind Twist is played as a card vs. Combo and Control in Elves
Decks that want to counter NO:
It's Turn 3.
A:Elves Player plays Mind Twist for 4. Opponent counters. Opponent is now -1 Counter vs. Natural Order, which Elves still has 4 in his hand/deck.
B: Elves player plays Mind Twist for 4. Opponent doesn't counter. Opponent looses his hand, which results into topdeck mode, which results into a clear coast for future NO's or simpy running over with elves (machine gunning etc.)
VS: Decks that have a stronger Gameplan(Combo):
Elves player has 4 No + Ruric, 4 ways to win the game on the spot. In Addition, they have another card, which reads: Opponent discards his hand, which results opponent again topdecking their business etc. while the elves player has their win-on-the-spot-play
I'm not saying the card should stay banned, i just want to say you probably don't want to lose your hand against an aggro-combo deck, which makes Mind Twist another must-counter.
Also, Lemnear said everything i want to say. Thank you.
no, thank you guys for getting the point of my posts
There are a lot of differences though:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
* Mind Twist is Black. It can't be tossed to FoW when it's dead, nor can it be tossed to BS as naturally (as you're now in UB, a smaller subset of decks.)
* Mind Twist is a dead Topdeck, TC gets better as the game goes on.
* Mind Twist is weaker to Thalia, Spell Pierce, Divert, and other cheap spells. TC played through Thalia, couldn't be redirected, nor was it easy to pierce.
* Twist always costs 3+ mana to get any CA, TC could be played at higher costs, but often costs 1-3 mana for *more* CA.
* Twist doesn't actually do anything. TC could draw you out of a bad board position, find you a threat, etc..
I agree with you that Twist could be mildly dangerous, but the cards in legacy already control it plus it makes games that drag on (specifically what CA is for) into worse topdecks rather than better ones.
Literally, the only comparison point here is that it's a spell that has a versatile casting cost that can get CA; but in order to get the same CA as Cruise you have to cast it for 4 mana *while the opponent has three cards in hand*. This is weak to Teeg, Thalia, Wasteland, etc.. while being Dazable.
Mind Twist in Elves would be strictly worse than TC in Elves, and no one played with it. Mind Twist in Shardless would be garbage. Mind Twist in Jund is similarly bad. The only decks that could run Mind Twist are Junk/DGA/Dega and some non-existent black control decks. It's quite safe that if only T2 decks (at best) can bring the card to bare (including things like a MUD variant) or Storm using it as a way to protect itself, then it's fine IMO.
EDIT: If it's really specifically the combo mirror:
* Run Divert. Every other combo deck worth mentioning has access to it. Were Twist a Problem Misdirection, Pierce, Discard, and Divert have it's number.
* If Combo is merely boosting it's game against other combo; that seems like simple evolution. Simply running anti-discard (which is better and more prevalent) is probably doable.
* If Elves is casting this T3, isn't that really just saying that Sneak/Storm had a bad hand? Elves can already *WIN* on T2. If them putting bad topdecks and non-elves in the deck means they go off T3 instead of T2, you're in a much much better position than them just having a consistent T2.5 win.
What kind of nonsense is this? Of course didn't Elves play an off-color, 7 mana spell which you can't feed with your graveyard simply because your deck is permanent-based! It's like making a point with NicFit not running TC eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Dragon Stompy didn't run Treasure Cruise! It wouldn't want Mind Twist either!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I think I have to go back to not reading this thread... I feel dumb. :rolleyes:
And again why on earth would Elves want to play and resolve a big Mind Twist against Combo or Control if they could resolve a Natural Order or big GSZ to simply win on the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel
If the Mind Twist resolved then the NO or GSZ would have resolved too and won the game.
Also if a combo deck gets stopped by a turn 3 mindtwist that is just fine considering that these decks typically combo before or or before turn 3. Apparently combos to win by turn 3 are fun and fair? Combos to strip your opponents hand on turn 3 without winning are unfair? lol
Because you have only 4 Natural Orders to draw in time to slap Ruric? Because GSZ for Ruric is 7 mana?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
Elves is capable to produce 4+ mana turn 2 with ease, so why are you picking on the mentioned turn 3, just because I wanted to avoid hyperboles and excellent draws for my point and mentioned COMBO/CONTROL as the possible candidates to board Mindtwist against? You take things out of context and ignore that it was already mentioned that Twist would act as a pure tool to increase blowout plays for Elves against the mentioned strategies because Twist would act as NO 5-8 in the same manarange like NO unlike GSZ.
I suspect you know all this and just decided to troll here pointing at decks like Belcher which would be indeed too fast to catch with a Twist while we have Storm/S&T/Miracles in mind. Congratulations.
Also another reason Mind Twist is good: Against combo you need blowout plays, and Glimpse is a good one. Problem is, it wants you to keep stuff in hand. All other things that are good against combo - NO, big GSZ/GSZ(Teeg), Cabal Therapy, just turning Elves sideways - want you to play your stuff out ASAP. With Twist, you can concoct a postboard build that wholly supports the dudes on the field plan instead of having its panties in a bunch over internal conflicts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The point about the strategic advantage is that you force both players into the topdeck mode with the difference that you not only have plenty of mana available but also a clock going. It's basically the same strategic angle Balance, Armageddon, Deathcloud and other (not-so-)equalizers serveQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Some guys make it sound stricktly bad to drop T1 DRS or GSZ for Arbor to just fuel a Mindtwist for X=2 on turn 2 as a very realistic and common scenario if Mindtwist was unbanned, though Team America/BUG Delver do basically the same successful for years with Hmyn to run away with the game due to the cardadvantage created turn 2. Not even talking about the scaling of the impact in certain scenarios of stripping 3 or 4 cards turn 2 or, god forbid, enter turn 3 for the complete blowout
edit:
The question given for WotC is who would seriously enjoy all those possible blowouts from decks with quick manaextension like Elves, Tezzerator, Cloudpost, NicFit, etc.?
Yeah, because I said those were? Or are you not okay? Clearly, every card in the format is skill testing(sarcasm). Even if there are cards currently that are not, why would I want to add more? Derp all around.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I'm so glad it took us fourteen pages of bickering like idiots to establish that Mind Twist is an enormous piece of shit that would either fail to improve or have no use in Legacy. Now, as a community, and without mincing words, can we finally just admit that we want Mind Twist and Black Vice unbanned solely on principle of unbanning as many things as possible rather than stubbornly and belligerently continuing to purport the notion that their unbannings would personally do the format good?
Well, you didn't originally say that we're talking about a sideboard card. I thought you meant Elves would run it MB and I made the point about CC because like Twist it isn't a creature but unlike twist it does put more elves on the field which is literally what every other card in the deck does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
That being said I don't think "It's a blowout from the sideboard for Elves against Storm, S&T and Miracles!" is a reason to keep a card banned. If anything it's a reason to ban Gaea's Cradle or Natural Order since we are keeping cards hostage on the banlist because Elves is too powerful.
Also you know you'd bring in Twist vs Miracles and they'd go T1 top and just draw the best card to blow you out every turn anyway.
Talking about other ramp decks...
-I don't think Tezz wants this effect MB, and keeping a SB card banned is really weak as I already stated. I guess it would replace Chalice, but then you're taking an artifact out of the deck
-Post, post, urborg, twist you is well within acceptable Legacy parameters. Especially for a deck that doesn't currently play black and needs to find its Posts to even make this a blowout play. And it will do so while not advancing the board at all other than maybe playing a Top or Expedition Map. If this resolves, agaisnt most decks you end up tapped out with no board presence and they still have 1-3 cards plus stuff on board. And while it might bite S&T and Storm and Miracles again, two of those decks can win a turn earlier and the other has Top and an abundance of countermagic. What's fair is fair.
-Nic Fit mmmmaybe wants this card but I doubt it. I can't see a reason to play it over Hymn, since getting BB is really no problem and Hymn isn't dependent on ramp. And Nic Fit doesn't always play him. Like other decks it might be SB against Miracles but it wouldn't do anything to help its Storm or S&T matchup as the ramp isn't as fast as other decks.
There is also no chance any other Bx midrange deck plays this, there's no advantage over Hymn or targeted discard, especially with SDT and DTT in the format. Also no reason to tap out and not affect the board. Doesn't cascade well.
The best we could hope for is a new deck that makes Twist a threat. That would be amazing. Twist hate is already present in most sideboards between extra counters like Envelop or Swan Song, Guerilla Tactics effects (well, maybe they should just be called Obstinate Baloth effects now), and cards like Gaddock Teeg and Thalia. Some sort of Dark Tide deck, maybe?
TL;DR; Mind Twist is safe, Elves is obnoxious, ban Gaea's Cradle.
There is a third option which was discussed, which you choose to ignore: make the players experience worse by creating blowouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
So YOU speak for the whole Legacy community! Had anyone informed be before we chewed through 14 pages...Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
WotC gives a fuck about YOUR principles of decisionmaking if you keep those to a random forum. Write them a letter to get their shit together, especiallyfor Modern. thxQuote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I did. Pretty clearly imo. Look here:Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
It's not my fault if no one bothers to read, but rather argues about me being wrong on things I never said, like running Mindtwist in Elves MB ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I understand the threat of Mind Twist out of Elves, Tezzeret, etc., and understand that it can be another attractive option. I'm not saying it sucks - I just don't think it's broken enough to warrant being on the Legacy Banned List, nor do I think it would be unhealthy for the format (both also apply to Black Vise). Elves already has Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize to rip an opponent's hand apart, and get the actual cards they want for 1 mana, while still being able to cast something else large the same turn. Is the format in great danger or peril because Elves is already a Tier 1 strategy? Is Mind Twist suddenly going to push it over the top even though they already have a million discard spells and Flusterstorm to combat other combo decks? Does Mind Twist suddenly help Elves consistently beat Miracles because it can somehow now deal with Terminus off the top of their deck?
If you are comparing Mind Twist to Treasure Cruise please stop embarrassing yourself. Treasure Cruise was exceptional at 1 mana, not 4 at mana. This is why nobody plays Concentrate (at 4 mana) or Jace's Ingenuity (at 5 mana), but everybody wanted to play Treasure Cruise, for the exact same effect, at an exceptionally low mana rate. Everything in Magic is about cost to power (= value) ratio.
the point is: WotC has no interrest in finding out if Mindtwist would create issues or not. If it would, you can bet people would call out WotC immediately for being dumb and Co. potentially having to ban it again and look like fools. Just remember the reactions to their on/off with Gush in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
+1 ... I'm too old to argue with people. If your goal is to protect you broken Elf sorcery or raw dogged Hoof just Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, or play City of Solitude for gods sake. The stupid hoof makes turn 2-3 kills a fairly normal occurrence anyway why Mind Twist for 4 (potentially while some Miracles shill floats Terminus) when you can just point discard, and derp hoof and win?Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
Mind Twist, Earthcraft, and Black Vise coming off the banned list would do nothing to shake up the dominance of Brainstorm decks and Elves. They would be played but they wouldn't come within a fucking mile of the 80% saturation of Brainstorm, 60% saturation of Force and Ponder. They shouldn't be banned with respect to what is legal, it's an awful cruel joke on the part of Wizards. Or they are just lazy. Or there are some filthy closet casuals there who have child hood memories of being Mind Twisted or triple Vised on the draw back when you drew on the play and the Paris mulligan hadn't been invented yet.
I'm not sure that's very accurate. They've said in the recent past (2-3 years) when taking cards off of the Vintage Restricted List that they weren't sure about them, but they'd like to give them a test in the current environment, and I believe they said the same thing about Land Tax. If that's the case, then there's little reason not to give Black Vise and Mind Twist a shot (and Earthcraft or Frantic Search if you're feeling more dangerous).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Every once in a while when a format becomes stale, a card gets unbanned. Expect Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Hermit Druid to come off the list. Mind Twist is ridiculously safe. I don't understand all the anxiety.
The Hermit Druid deck is just oops all spells with lands and cantrips, right? Not sure if that's more or less broken.
Oops might be faster, but it's all-in, while Hermit doesn't require further investment other than being able to tap it for profit. The shell could include alot more (cantrip) digging and probably even a full countermagic suit. That should be more broken than Oops (take that as you will) since you don't fold to countermagic that easily and you run a more stable deck in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
You would think Black Vise is fair if you were looking at in a vacuum and had never actually played against it in constructed play. In a format that had many cards that just flew out of player's hands vise was borderline broken but sat on things like Library of Alexandria as a counterweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
If you let me play Stax with City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb into double-vise on turn 1 I certainly will do that.
Anybody arguing for Balance to come off the list just doesn't know what they are talking about.
I don't see why r&d would be afraid of making unhealthy metas by unbanning when they routinely print new cards that do it already.
WotC is afraid that somebody will come up with a shell with Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Mind Twist that actually works. They hate black with a passion and always have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I'm not worried about that at all. I'm worried about how Mind Twist will fold into the blue shell. That's a door better left shut.
WotC makes money off of the new unhealthy cards they print. They don't make much (if anything) off of the out of print cards that are banned. That explains the R&D issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by phonics
I really hate the way you "argue." You took a 5 paragraph post of perfect counters to your argument, cherry pick a phrase you disagree with and write off everything that was in the vicinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I established that Non-Elves Combo can easily counter Mind Twist at 1CC in a color they already run and countered your actual Elves argument (that casting Mind Twist for 3-4 cards is a problem) by pointing out that they could've either WON or they're on T3, so you could've WON and that on top of this they have to dilute their deck to use it. Further, several in the thread have shown that the TC = MT comparison is fatally flawed.
Now your argument is "well you said something that isn't quite true so POST INVALIDATED LOL!" and "well WotC wouldn't unban it so why discuss it?"
Both of these "arguments" are false and self defeating, but in the cruel twist of fate of the internet your post taken by itself makes me foolish. Your arguments have been shown to be false; please dispute that (so we can agree to disagree) or come up with a new/better argument.
The arguments against your position are:
-Elves could've already won by the time they cast Mind Twist for anything better than Hymn. Thusly, they're diluting their deck.
-The multitude of effects that can counter or effectively counter Mind Twist that are maindecked are vastly greater and easier to use than the effects of TC.
-Mind Twist is safe because the decks that can effectively utilize it are T2 or worse while being assured that Blue can control it. Further, it's non-blue so it can't be reactively stuffed into the majority of decks.
-The types of decks that would suffer from Mind Twist the most (Mid-Range Fair Decks, non Grave control) are grindy games, of which Shardless, Miracles, D&T, and Jund are often hellbent and spewing card advantage/dudes anyway from the top deck; of which Mind Twist does not prevent or equalize against.
The fact that Mind Twist is actively mediocre against Delver, Combo (by comparison to Hymn, which is often too slow anyway), and becomes worse in the mid-late game means that it's application is small enough that it should not come to shift the meta drastically. It's merely a 3 CMC Hymn most of the time, and wouldn't you rather fight that than a Lily anyway?
Ok, i'm sorry i started this, another post i want to keep short and simple:
1. Everybody here agrees that Treasure Cruise is miles better than Mind Twist. That was never mine or Lemnears argument.
2. JACO said: "I'm all for allowing somebody to make me discard a few cards, rather than losing on the spot to a more broken spell." I used TC as an Example to show him that discarding a few cards (example: 4 cards turn 3 vs elves) is enormous card disadvantage(in a similar way as Treasure Cruise was card advantage) thus, in a Deck where the Manacost isn't a problem, while he is not loosing on the spot, he will almost surely later.
3. 4 Natural Order = 4 Counter or you die
X Mindtwist = Discard your hand-> No counter in hand. You STILL HAVE Natural Order-> 4+X. THIS IS NOT WHY MINDTWIST IF YOU CAN ORDER; IT'S MINDTWIST; THEN ORDER SAFELY!
4. All of this , by my part, has nothing to do with the debatte if it's too powerful. It's just about the concept of having multiple mustcounter threats and about the concept of card advantage.
5. I'm out here. Nice to meet you.
You can't just jam a lot of random 4 mana spells in a deck and hope to get away with it because they all end the game immediately. A lot of elves players just play 3 natural order main deck because it is a clunky spell. The other "must counter" threat of elves is glimpse, and that's fine because it costs 1 mana and at worst it cycles. Playing 4 orders and 4 mind twist is out of the equation, would make the deck worse, and could at best be a sideboard plan against decks with little interaction that let you develop board/mana safely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel
Mind Twist as a 4-of isn't the problem. No Legacy list is going to be able to play 4 Mind Twist and profit from that. Mind Twist as a 2-of is the problem. It's another bomb that non-blue lists would have no hope of recovering from if somebody played it at the right time. It's another bomb that blue lists would have available to swing the game state and throw the other guy out of the Sumo ring.
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor? No problem. 2 Jace the Mind Sculptor? Big problem for a lot of lists.