[Deck] The Rock

Thanks guys. Your criticism and suggestions are appreciated.

So, I've altered the deck accordingly:

23 LANDS:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Forest
4 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Swamp

I don't think I can go below 23 lands, considering that my local metagame is full of wastelands and similar land destructing garbage.

19 CREATURES:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks

I've increased the number of creatures. Mainboarded Finks shield me from Naya Zoo and other Aggro. Birds are here to speed me up early and because I needed something to play during turn 1, except swords or SdT. Later on they can serve as chumpers.

4 DISRUPTION
4 Hymn to Tourach

This can be Cabal Therapy. I'm not certain yet which is the optimal choice for this build.

3 UTILITY
3 Sensei's Divining Top

11 REMOVAL
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords
3 Putrefy/Maelstrom Pulse/Terror/Diabolic Edict

I'm also not certain about the alternative removal beside Swords. I must test it. Putrefy is useful against Rouge Scepters lurking around. :) I simply love Maelstrom Pulse, but it hurts me when I have to remove a Goyf with mine on the table. Diabolic Edict is useful against Progenitus, and Terror seems a good choice considering that I don't see many black creatures in my local enviroment.

15 SIDEBOARD:
3 Extripate (vs Dredge, Reanimator etc.)
2 Tormod's Crypt (vs Dredge, Reanimator)
2 Gaddock Teeg (vs ANT)
4 Engineered Plague (vs Dredge, Tribal)
3 Chalice of the Void (vs Ant, could be useful against Tribal & WW)
2 Hide/Seek (vs Reanimator, Progenitus)

@ Aggrosteve

Do you really need Sword of Light and Shadow? I mean, it's sinergy with Deed is doubtful. That way you decrease your deck size to 60 with an open slot for something like additional disruption.

till now i really loved the swords, may sound strange but, if i get a creature equiped its hard to get rid of it since the most removal played are swords or paths, bolts do not even reach a goyf (if played as 4/5), nor a doran, plus most time i need to blow a deed for two, so swords sticks (at least most of the times) the recursion is just a good sideeffect

and as i said i'm considering playing stoneforge mystic, 1 jitte, 1 sword of fire/ice, 1 sword of light/shadow, just like Death an Taxes is doing, right now i'm stuck with getting the cards (for my DnT^^) than begins the testing, hopefully something good comes out^^

otherwise i have to say that if i had 2 elspeth, probably i would rather play them over the 2 swords of light and shadow, so its a budget decision as well, but i wouldn cut them for addictional disruption right now, i think or you go the boardcontrol-direction, or the disruption-direction, i've played hymn and verdict, but i'm way happier with more creatures and only the 4 thoughtsieze (probably due to playstyle as well)

hope this makes my thoughts a little clearer, and i'll stick with the 61 cards :P

MrShine - I, am, suggesting cutting the Swords for Edicts. I figured that our swarm defense was strong enough as it is. We can deal with the results of a 1st turn Lackey pretty easily, even without Swords. The issues we've been fighting are Progenitus and Iona *white*. Both of these are solved by Edict.

I'm wondering, since you mentioned having Horizon Canopy, if you have any way of recursion for it. I am running Crucible since Rock enjoys having lands as well. But, I also have a land toolbox within my deck; so I can tutor them without hindering my development.

On a side Note: How has Control Rock been working out for you? I've been playing it for a while now and I'm hitting a wall in development. I solved the Reanimator issue as well as ANT and Belcher *4x Thorn from the board has changed my match-up to about 55-45 instead of 30-70*. Merfolk is a joke * Literally only lost to the deck only because Bob 22'd me!*. I haven't gotten to play against Gobs or Zoo since I tweaked the board but they weren't bad main.

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publius_aelius - If you're worried about Waste you can always fetch your basics. I would probably add another fetch just to make it more consistant. You have SO MANY BASICS though that I don' think you have to worry about anything. Our lists are different though and you need more colors that I do so the extra fetch may not make things easier. Just something to look into.

*I just realized you also have 4 birds... You can cut some lands if you want. The wastes are almost useless. I almost asked you why not Noble but I realize that your list is mostly black so you need to focus there.

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AggroSteve - Just wondering, Why only 3 Bobs? I'm still not used to seeing it in lists as a 3 of so I'm just curious.

hehe.... knew this possibly would come up, there are a few reasons though they might sound a bit strange... ok i'll just sart with my explanations

1. bob is good but not absolutely needed
2. we have got a lot of library-manipulation with SDT and 8 fetchs, so you'll find one if you want one
3. if a bob is allready in play i would rather draw into a beater like goyf/doran instead of another bob
4. it does not allways happen that you've got both bob and SDT, and in some matchups thats my death, specially because i'm still using shockland (lack of real duals)
5. i would rather put in a 4th SDT instead of 4th BOB, may it be playstyle or whatever, the divining top helped me out of bad situations way more often than bob, though the CA of bob often kills your oponent on its own

so right now the number for me will be 3, hope these reasons are at least a bit understandeble^^


besides damionblackgear, do the thorns really do so much against ANT and Belcher, i haven't tested them but im not that convinced, and i'm not sure what to take out of my sideboard for them, the only options i see are 2x hide/seek and 3x gaddock teeg which were for this matchup, what would you reccomend

Thanks for explaining. I was just used to 4 or 0 so I was curious. I'm gonna give it an attempt after I get back from Chicago's 1k.

On Thorn, Our worst match-ups are Burn and combo. Thresh can be fun, Folk is a joke, and Gobs.. can be fast enough... Combo and Burn create issues though. We pray for a creature that gains life and a swords to hit our own goyf. Why not slow them down a little?

Ant has a difficult time because one thorn means Dark Ritual against 1, Cabal Rit 2. Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox... 0. That's really useful. Most of them will side in bounce but what do they do when they see a second one on the stack? Additionally we can protect it via discard (earlier or later).

Belchor has an easier time around it but the math on a single Thorn in play is almost the same: First rite, 0, second right, 1 (total of .5 for the 2), Seething song is a +1 instead of +2. Having that slowdown can really stop those decks. And with the removal we have we can stop atinder wall that comes down to produce mana (as long as it's not used).

I was skeptical about Thorn until I tried it. I think it's the best weapon we have. I beat both Ant and Belchor in my last tournament due to Thorn being played Turn 2. I would say give it a shot. I don't know what I would cut right now. I'll come back and edit this with my idea.

Hmm, I don't know about siding in Thorn against Burn and Reanimator. In my opinion, it is INCREDIBLY ineffective against those two decks. Both decks can easily get the extra 1 mana a turn that they need. I think of it like this: Thorn is basically a Sinkhole in those matchups, except it also hurts you. Would you side in Sinkhole against Burn or Reanimator? Probably not.

That said, Thorn is a beating on ANT. Sure, they can still go Mystical-->Bounce-->Win, but it slows them do win by at least two turns. Two turns might be all that is needed to find and play another hate card, or beat them down to low enough life for Ad Nauseam to be ineffective.

Thorn against Belcher is a different story. It shouldn't be your primary tool to fight Belcher. The way I see it, Belcher almost always goes off on turn 1, sometimes 2, but it's sheer speed means you really need turn one Thoughtseize (or something like Deed to clean up Empty the Warrens tokens) to win this matchup. I see Thorn as the final nail in the coffin once you've dealt with their initial attempt to go off, but sometimes it might come too late.

brianw712, sorry but why are you getting to the idea to board in thorns agains reanimator, i would never even consider such a thing, and burn doesn't see play much around here so about that i wont worry
against reanimator obviosly board diabolic edict, i see no other options, it's the best card for that matchup

thorn agains ANT, i'm still not so sure but the fact that it slows them down is allready good, and i would not only board thorns in that case, hide/seek is an option or gaddock teeg, and of course the mainbord thoughtsieze should come handy as well, so i for my part will surely give them a shot, but sure 1 thorn wont be enought to stop ANT, but it slows, and you've got a lot of big beaters, and they allmost wont be able to go of with 7 life or whatever ( just iggy still works)

thorn against belcher is really a diffent story, i have no objections there, they will try to go off in their first turn, thats the only thing that makes belcher strong, i'm really not sure if thorns are not to slow here, you can winn if you're on the play and thoughtsieze him an then lay down a thorn thats for sure, otherwise you need deed ore pulse, or you are allready dead.

I was actually advocating against boarding in Thorns against Reanimator. I brought it up because damionblackgear said before that bringing in 4 Thorns helped both his Reanimator and his Belcher matchup.

I just recently won a local four-round legacy tournament with the following list:

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Savannah
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
1 Lord of Extinction
2 Tombstalker

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Phyrexian Arena

Sideboard I was running:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
3 Planar Void
4 Leyline of the Void

There were 3 Dredge decks running around, that's why all the hate.

Round 1: Dredge
The matchup I didn't feel like playing after a long day at school. Game 1 I got beaten pretty badly, with Iona coming out.
Game 2 I drew into double Planar Void. After playing my Void, getting it bounced and discarded, I laid another. I put down Doran a few turns later, and a Leyline. I won.
Game 3 I started out with a Leyline in play, with Planar Void backup in hand. I drew into another Void, and laid them all down. My opponent scooped.

Boarded in: 4 Leyline, 3 Void, 4 Plague
Boarded out: 3 Arena, 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize

Score: 1-0

Round 2: Goblins
He plays first turn Lackey, I swords. Second turn Piledriver, I swords. Third turn he stalls, I play Doran. He plays vial on fourth turn, I hymn away Gobbos, and swing. I won.
Game 2, I open with two lands and keep. I didn't hit another land ever again.
Game 3, I opened with Thoughtseize, followed by Goyf. I hit Arena turn 3, and drew into Engineered Plague, followed by Doran. I swords away his Chieftain, and eventually got the second Plague to seal the deal.

Board in: 4 Engineered Plague, 3 Pithing Needle
Board out: 1 Lord of Extinction, 3 Eternal Witness, 1 Arena, 1 Stronghold, 1 Thoughtseize

Score: 2-0

Round 3: 43 Land
Another matchup I had no intention of winning. First game, I get bogged down in Wastelands and Ports, along with Mazes. He has my mana base almost shut down. I got a few attacks in with a Goyf early, but I was losing badly. I eventually got enough lucky topdecks with Arena onboard to hit enough creatures and vindicates to blow up the Mazes. The game took 40 minutes, and I was at 6. It was very tight.
Game 2, I lay down 2 Leylines and a Pithing Needle on Ghost Quarter first turn off of a Swamp. Second turn, Planar Void. We played for the 5 minutes until time-up, and I won.

Board in: 4 Leyline, 4 Pithing Needle, 3 Planar Void
Board out: 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 4 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Lord of Extinction

Score: 3-0

Round 4: Merfolk
At this point, I was mentally drained from playing 43 land, so we looked at the tie-breakers and there was no way second place was going to be anymore but me or my opponent, so we split for first. I chose 13 packs of Rise of the Eldrazi :D

So far, I'm pretty happy with my versions performance. The creature base might need a bit of work, but we'll see. Lord of Extinction wasn't seen in any of my games, but when I have used him before (ex. Dreadstill matchup a few weeks ago) he was amazing. We'll see.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I just recently won a local four-round legacy tournament with the following list:

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Savannah
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
1 Lord of Extinction
2 Tombstalker

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Phyrexian Arena

Sideboard I was running:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
3 Planar Void
4 Leyline of the Void

There were 3 Dredge decks running around, that's why all the hate.

Round 1: Dredge
The matchup I didn't feel like playing after a long day at school. Game 1 I got beaten pretty badly, with Iona coming out.
Game 2 I drew into double Planar Void. After playing my Void, getting it bounced and discarded, I laid another. I put down Doran a few turns later, and a Leyline. I won.
Game 3 I started out with a Leyline in play, with Planar Void backup in hand. I drew into another Void, and laid them all down. My opponent scooped.

Boarded in: 4 Leyline, 3 Void, 4 Plague
Boarded out: 3 Arena, 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize

Score: 1-0

Round 2: Goblins
He plays first turn Lackey, I swords. Second turn Piledriver, I swords. Third turn he stalls, I play Doran. He plays vial on fourth turn, I hymn away Gobbos, and swing. I won.
Game 2, I open with two lands and keep. I didn't hit another land ever again.
Game 3, I opened with Thoughtseize, followed by Goyf. I hit Arena turn 3, and drew into Engineered Plague, followed by Doran. I swords away his Chieftain, and eventually got the second Plague to seal the deal.

Board in: 4 Engineered Plague, 3 Pithing Needle
Board out: 1 Lord of Extinction, 3 Eternal Witness, 1 Arena, 1 Stronghold, 1 Thoughtseize

Score: 2-0

Round 3: 43 Land
Another matchup I had no intention of winning. First game, I get bogged down in Wastelands and Ports, along with Mazes. He has my mana base almost shut down. I got a few attacks in with a Goyf early, but I was losing badly. I eventually got enough lucky topdecks with Arena onboard to hit enough creatures and vindicates to blow up the Mazes. The game took 40 minutes, and I was at 6. It was very tight.
Game 2, I lay down 2 Leylines and a Pithing Needle on Ghost Quarter first turn off of a Swamp. Second turn, Planar Void. We played for the 5 minutes until time-up, and I won.

Board in: 4 Leyline, 4 Pithing Needle, 3 Planar Void
Board out: 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 4 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Lord of Extinction

Score: 3-0

Round 4: Merfolk
At this point, I was mentally drained from playing 43 land, so we looked at the tie-breakers and there was no way second place was going to be anymore but me or my opponent, so we split for first. I chose 13 packs of Rise of the Eldrazi :D

So far, I'm pretty happy with my versions performance. The creature base might need a bit of work, but we'll see. Lord of Extinction wasn't seen in any of my games, but when I have used him before (ex. Dreadstill matchup a few weeks ago) he was amazing. We'll see.

-Matt

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Nice finish Matt. I didn't see what you were playing that day. This looks like a solid list, but why the 1x Lord of Extinction? I'd put a 3rd Tombstalker in there.

Was Needle effective in your matchups? I assume your plan was to name Vial vs. Goblins/Merfolk?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brianw712

I was actually advocating against boarding in Thorns against Reanimator. I brought it up because damionblackgear said before that bringing in 4 Thorns helped both his Reanimator and his Belcher matchup.

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Huh? I'm sorry, I'm still looking for that reference. Was it on another page? I read the comment above and saw that there was Burn, Combo (ANT and Belchor) Goblins mentioned but I can't find reanimator... ?:|

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AggroSteve - On our previous talk about Thorn and your sideboard, I would cut the Grips and a Teeg for the 4 Thorns. Reasons being that:
Teeg is good but He's really meant (for us) to be a combo stopper. Granted he does block a Zoo Critter but he isn't the best to deal with them. You're Edicts will be better. And Thorn doesn't get slaughter pacted.

Grip isn't really useful anymore. It was a nice way to get out of a counterbalance lock but you can just hold vindicates or not use a deed and to deal with them. Countertop is also starting to leave the format since Merfolk entered the meta. They need something to solve that deck and can't really focus on all of our ways to solve there issues.

Not sure about there being 4 edicts though. It almost seems like if you're going to

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I agree with AggroSteve. Thorn isn't the fastest and Belchor likes to go off on the first turn. Ant on the other hand is starting to play 2 of AdN and 2 Tendrills, So Hide/Seek is getting worse there. If you get lucky you won't play against an updated list though... Also, 2 is about as fast as we get, and this is just a generic 2. We don't get much for playable combo hate. It breaks down to a preference a this point though.

Thanks Plague for the support!

Needle is in there for Belcher, Vial, Wasteland, Port, Maze, etc...It was very good in the second 43 land game I played, although it was a short one.

The Lord of Extinction at the moment is my Flex spot. Tombstalker is quite anti-synergistic with Tarmogoyf, and the plan that I'm running with the Eternal Witness package. The Lord is there for big-beats near the end of the game, or just general fat. He's easily a 7/7 by the time he comes out, and basically has to be dealt with. With him and a Deed on board, I can sweep, then swing for lethal, making my opponent literally "Do or Die," which usually involves Swords.

Swords nicely gives me ~20 life in the mid-late game, which can help me boost out of a tight spot (if I'm getting low on life, I've also Swords it myself, then I came back to win the game). I was playing 2, but I've cut it down to one at the moment. So far, he hasn't let me down, but I may consider a Knight of the Reliquary or another Tombstalker.

-Matt

Quote:

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Huh? I'm sorry, I'm still looking for that reference. Was it on another page? I read the comment above and saw that there was Burn, Combo (ANT and Belchor) Goblins mentioned but I can't find reanimator... ?:|

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Quote:

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I solved the Reanimator issue as well as ANT and Belcher *4x Thorn from the board has changed my match-up to about 55-45 instead of 30-70*

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I might have misinterpreted this as you boarding in Thorns for all three matchups. You probably only meant ANT and Belcher, in which case I'm sorry for the confusion.

I'm working on a new list and I want some suggestions for the mana base and SB. Currently this is what I'm thinking:

Lands (22): (note: this mana base took approximately 5 seconds to come up with so it's probably really bad)
4x Bayou
4x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village

Creatures (24):
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Kitchen Finks

Spells (14):
4x Thoughtseize
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse (Note: the 2/2 Vindicate/Pulse split is so I have MD outs to Iona on white.)

SB:
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersword Canonist
2x Engineered Plague
5x ??? (Diabolic Edict? Duress? Jitte?)

I apologize. I was talking about Belchor and ANT for the Thorn. My grammar was definitely misleading there. I'll work on using proper punctuation to write what I am trying to say.

The Thorns are for ANT and Belchor. I'm debating between Faerie Macabre and Leyline for Graveyard hate. I want it to be available on first turn (Even if it's not mine). Currently I have Leyline but the only reason is for Ichorid. I am trying to figure out if I win by just taking 2 key cards or if I need to have all of them go away.

fearie macabre would be the top card against reanimator i think, since they don't have to fear a leyline they will probably go for reanimate and not show and tell, plus fearie can't be bounced, but against ichorid i'm not sure, i think i would opt for leyline since i haven't got any expirience with fearie against ichorid and i'm affraid it won't be enough

In theory, getting the Zealot + Iona should be enough but, theory is only good after proven. I am going to be testing it but I won't have the time I used to because I'm going to be in class during the weekly tournaments soon.

The main flaw I see to hand based removal as opposed to permanent is Therapy. Once they see it the first game they know what to name the next time. I'm fine once I get to an active Knight though *Fetch Bog* can solve all issues I have. With a top I can try and keep one hidden on the top but there is the chance that you need to fetch... that always makes things awkward.

since ichorid is a rarely played deck in my neighborhood (hopefully written correctly^^) i havent got much expierience with it, i'm practically the only one from my friends ho is actually able to play that deck, and from that viewpoint i absolutely have to say i think leylines are the best, just good to slow them down, to get all the removal you need, which in my case the prefered one is deed and diabolic edict from the sideboard. but since i havent got a lot on expierience against the deck probably i should shut my mouth and let the more expierienced players do the talking.... but somithing that is not to forget.... you can edict or vindicate/deed your own creature to get rid of bridges, allready made that move, and opponents face was just hilarious

Against Dredge, I pack 4 Leyline and 3 Planar Void. I've found it to be stellar. Even if they bring in 7 pieces of hate, I can usually get there before they can. I'm sure 3 Extirpate would also work, but I've found Planar Void pretty awesome, too.
-Matt

@sdematt: I'm surprised you run 3 Planar Void in the sideboard. Remember that it hits both graveyards. A turn one Planar Void means Tarmogoyf is forever a 0/1, Tombstalker costs forever 8 mana, Lord of Extinction is a 5 mana do-nothing, and Eternal Witness is a 3 mana 2/1. It might be more backbreaking against Dredge than it is against you, but it seems a bit narrow, since I don't think you could profitably bring it in against Loam-based decks. I would suggest Wheel of Sun and Moon, which does basically the same thing, except it costs one mana more and only affects one player.