I might play a similar list on saturday =).
But why the Witness?
Wouldn't the Sage do better?
Printable View
I might play a similar list on saturday =).
But why the Witness?
Wouldn't the Sage do better?
Copy-paste Parcher from the other Thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
I've cut out the things with LED obv. :-PQuote:
Retrieve Breakthrough to play with either a land or LED already in play.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with a land in play and vice-versa.
Retrieve PImp to fly in for the win.
Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available.
Retrieve Chain, Firestorm, and Needle to either win, or seal a win in following turns.
Return Dread Return, GGT, and Stinkweed with an LED in play to be hardcast when the extra 2/1 body, or extra tokens from his sacrifice made the difference in the win.
Return Dread Return to be hardcast in a 40 minute game when I had four lands in play.
And of course, swung for the win.
Witness is basically a more versatile Cephalid Sage. I feel that Sage is more consistent for that purpose. But I haven't tried it myself yet but I should I guess.
Yeah, i read that, but still it feels wrong.
I think the strongest play would be to cast Breakthrough of the Witness, which equals 1 more dredge than a Sage but you need to have mana open, same with Coliseum.
The rest of the stuff COULD be useful but i still think Witness is the better call only in an LED based list.
Gotta wait for the results though =).
actually witness is there as a replacement for sage, but moreso due to its ability to be outstanding in games 2/3. True sage can help you win a game quickly, but games 2/2 he usually gets sided out. Witness can take back a land you need to cast grudge, take back a therapy so you can rape the opponents hand, and bring back your Imps etc..... Sage purely served an aggressive role in the deck. Witness has the chance to be aggressive or defensive, I want the flexibility there for games 2/2
Fello team awesome member Sunshine(Justin Russell) top 2 split yesterday at Vestal playing this:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Underground Sea
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Wonder
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Brainstorm/Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
Sideboard
3 Firestorm
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestors Chosen
3 Duress
1 Wispmare
1 Pithing Needle
Unless he made some last minute changes this is what I am pretty positive he ran. I played:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Flame Kin Zealot
2 Breakthrough
1 Eternal Witness
SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Null Rod
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
Round 1: I face Zoo. I win the roll. Mull to 6. I Play tribe, pass, he lands a kird ape. I start dredging away but am not hitting my ichorids, but I do get into enough creatures to flashback an 18/18 troll and get some tokens. Then follow that up with zealot swinging along for the win
G2. he lands turn 1 Wild Nacatl, followed by another turn 2. On my turn 2 I firestorm for X=3 wrecking his day and next turn I drop tribe. I get my dredge action going and get moebas, dread return ancestor's chosen for +35 life and it is joined by 9 zombie tokens. I win this
Round 2- UGW Counterbalance:
G1 is a close one. Notes are fuzzy, but his life is taken down in increments of 2 so I think putrid imp got him down to 13 on his own then he scooped after I swarm him-eat brains
g2 he plays turn 1 relic. I have double grudge in my hand. I nail that bitch early. he also plays an EE for zero then a teeg. he blows ee, then a few turns later he plays another through teeg(neither of us notice this right away) then he swings in with goyf and something else, i block, then he goes to blow the EE, and I say whoa, teeg, but since we missed it it counts as being in play since it had been there for a turn or two. But I untap, he is tapped out creature wise and am able to get there nonetheless
Round 3. BGW-pikula discard/rack
game 1: an early rack from him followed by be not getting there fast enough then him playing tombstalker= he won this one
g2- early rack from him meets a grudge, so does an EE he plays i beat him with tribe and a few tokens without overcommitting and get the job done
g3- I play a turn 1 tribe after he goes land pass, he drops turn 2 grunt-ugh, then a turn 3 confidant. Card advantage and me not getting enough dredgers to stay ahead of grunt win him this game. He was a good player and the deck was interesting, I know he top 8'd
round 4: UGW natural order thresh
g1- this is the wierdest game I ever played with this deck. I was at 20 life when I lost do to decking myself. yeah you heard that right. I was getting ahead of this game, he ended up landing rhox war monk x2 after I lost my bridges. I cant deal him enough around him gaining 6 life, I reanimated all 4 ichorids 2 turns in a row, and still couldnt get there, I get to zero cards in library=fail
g2:i kill myself with 4 lands on the board (cityx3 and a coliseum) i turn 2 cast thug which he dazes and then says-wow that was dumb of me, I say its trickery! and dredge for a few cards, then play another thug from my hand )this means Ive dealt my self 4 damage already), then followed by a hardcast ichorid(-4 more) . It looks like I might squeak it out then he miracles into goyf, goyf, me screwed and he is at 2 life when he stabilizes. :frown:
round 5: ugrw something with trinket mage:
i have a slow start but he manages a goyf and starts swinging, i play tirbe, that gets swords'd, hink I am going to be able to start dredging since he has 1 card in hand and I have a tribe in my hand to block and I have dredgers, his 1 card in hand-pithing needle, he plays it- naming :eek: guess it:eek: tribe. BALLLLLSSSSSS. I lose
G2: note fuzzy but he lands academy ruins, tormods crypt, and relic. I say g'day sir. And scoop it up.
2-3 drop
but as always I had fun
Conrats on your friends finish but how useful were wonders with only 2 underground seas and no way to find them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
Against round 4 game 1 did you DRs got countered because it sound like GGT would rip those rhinos apart?
Also from you report I get that your main problem was being slow. Would you run 4 tribes again if there was a tourney tomorrow?
Im waiting to hear from him on his notes how relevant wonder was. I know it won him one match but other than that I felt myself it was a little random. I wouldnt say my problem was being slow, not getting into draw spells when I needed it was a problem, I ran out of gas and couldnt get ahead again when I lost. Tribe is a fucking beast-run 4 no bullshit. He blocks all day and seriously is the champ of this deck along side ichorid. In round 4 I would have taken back zealot for the win. Thats why it got countered :what happened was I flashbacked a therapy on him the turn before naming stp, he reveals a lone daze. He draws for his turn and passes. I can just win here if I resolve dread return since I have mana open to pay for daze, I go to play it, the card he drew for his turn was Force of Will- what are the odds. I had to try to win since that was the only card practically that could stop me.(and no, if I had a therapy in my grave I would have therapied first, so there wasnt a play error here)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scopeye
Wonder and the 2 Underground Sea feels really random. I think if you were to really run Wonder, you'd need some number of fetch and 4 USea to really make it worth running. Playing Witness to return a USea to make Wonder work outside of drawing one seems kinda like jumping through hoops to make all of your guys Jump (har har see what I did thar?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
Tribe is awesome. I like that he doesn't die to Lightning Bolt if you have a card in hand.
Eternal Witness is awesome. I've been playing 1 in the side, but I might move her to the main since she keeps going in.
Can you explain your sideboard for each matchups (I find it more important since we can easly win game 1s any way)? I can see that you have faced different kinds of decks and it is nice to see how other people sideboards for certain matchups. How were your sb choices and what would you change if you went to tourney again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
I can agree with not sbing chain of vapor, I see myself using it less and less because most of the time you can predict what the oppent will side against you.
I was personally suprised to see that your sb lacked Inkwell leviathan. I know our matchup against blue decks are good but they can still steal wins randomly. 1 sb slot guarantees that you will win against 50-60% of most fields.
2 USeas was actually the perfect number, short of playing straight UB dredge. If I really needed my guys to fly (read, if I really wanted my big ass troll to fly) I could recur a USea with Witness and gum up the ground with zombies. If you happen to open a USea it's just gravy.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Edit: For anyone who's interested I'll likely be posting a few notes this evening when I'm home from work.
Oddly enough my sb'ding changes often in comparison to how good of a player I feel my opponent is. Guidelines: if they run blue, bring in some form of enchantment hate just in case of propaganda. You of course want a way to deal with relic/crypt(always assume every deck can board these in a gainst you) so take in at least the 4 grudges. As for changes, I think my board would be the only thing to change. Next time:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scopeye
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress (maybe thoughtsieze)
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revelation
Keep an eye on your opponent especially after the first game when sideboarding, people give away an incredible amount of information. For example: how many cards did they bring in? Did they go right for a few cards or sift through their board for a while? Did they have to think about what cards came out? Etc. I can usually figure out exactly what my opponent is bring in just by what they give away.
So, can anyone tell me why Tolarian Winds isn't played. Turn2 win if it resolves. That's it. Unless there's a Crypt or Relic on the board, it's gg.
Breakthrough, IMO, is a completely dead card unless you already have something in the graveyard.
Putrid Imp+co require both draw and dredgers in the hand.
Tolarian Winds discards all cards (5/6) first, then draws 5/6 cards. It's its own engine. And unless you have every single Narc, Bridge, Therapy, and Return at the bottom of your deck, it's essentially gg.
Tolarian Winds costs twice as much as Breakthrough and gets Dazed and Spell Snared all the time. It's essentially GG.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Isn't Unmask just superior compared to thoughtseize or duress? You can mask a FoW and cast your spellQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
Tolarian winds is way too situational, lots of time you will have like 3 cards in your hand, including Wind...so it will only do two.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
By the way, tolarian is hard to cast with all the spell snares daze wasteland cursecatcher.
Not to mention that it's less versatile then break through, where you can at least keep 1 cards if you want to.
By the way, you dont necesserly need a draw with PIMP, you can just discard end of then and be sure to dredge every turn.
In my opinion, yes it is. It's not mana reliant and is often better then duress/thoughtseize because of it and because you can target ypurself and start dredging the same turn.Quote:
Isn't Unmask just superior compared to thoughtseize or duress? You can mask a FoW and cast your spell
Also, good players usually force your unmask if they have it.
Well, I unstand now, but I'd like to clear up 2 things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar
1) On turn2, you will most likely not have 3 cards. What are you going to play beforehand.
2) Draw-go is generally bad. Useful at some points, but bad. This is combo.
You most likely won't have two mana on turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Good luck on having 2 lands, and if you have two of not getting wasteland'd.
This is the version without LED. You are not looking for the ultra speed but to manage the hate "better". Putrid imp + dredgers can do this well enough.
Ive been known to screw with my opponent, taking out cards boarding some in, shhuffling while they do the same, then before offering to cut I make some last minute changes(or do I?:laugh: ) between my board/deck and then shuffle again(I do this quite quickly so I dont get hassled for slow shuffling etc..)Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
For those that advocate the all in approach, seriously how many games are MORE likely to go your way if you land turn 1 Imp/ Tribe? Tribe is absolutely amazing in a format full of goyf/merfolk/zoo creatures. I dont bellieve I have lost a game where I play him during the first 2-3 turns. Even if I dont get a crazy head start dredging, he is a body that can block and gives your opponent serious headaches.
This past Saturday there was a tourney at Jupiter Games in Vestal, NY. We had 66 people with seven rounds of swiss and a cut to the top eight. I settled on the list posted above. Here it is for reference:
A quick rundown of the matchups:Code:4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Underground Sea
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Wonder
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
2 Brainstorm/Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
Sideboard
3 Firestorm
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestors Chosen
3 Duress
1 Wispmare
1 Pithing Needle
Round 1, against Mono Red Goblins
My opponent is either a relatively new player of just inexperienced playing against dredge. I lose the first game after catching two Goblin Matrons in his hand on a blind therapy only for him to drop a third next turn. He takes a very long time over each turn and we end up going to time in the second game. I manage to win by baiting him to kill a Golgari Thug with his Sharpshooter when I have no cards left in my library and coming in for lethal the next turn. A disappointing start to the day, I made a few errors toward the end of the second game trying to speed things along and should have definitely called a judge for slow play. (0-0-1)
Round 2, against Tempo Thresh
I lose the first game fairly quickly to a couple of Goyfs, lots of burn, and poor dredging, sometimes it happens. Game two I find myself at two life due to another pair of Goyfs and more burn. I'm able to get some zombies in play to chump and make a big troll that swings in the air (Wonder) on my next turn taking him from 17 to 0. The final game is business as usual, drop a discard outlet recur some Ichorids, make some zombie tokens, win. (1-0-1)
Round 3, against Survival
My opponent gets some mediocre draws in both games while my deck does it's thing and discard keeps him off anything relevant. I don't think a Survival hit play in both games. (2-0-1)
Round 4, against Survival
I know my opponent is playing Survival since I saw the end of his last round. I keep an opener that's capable of playing Breakthrough on my second turn with Cabal Therapy as my only discard outlet. Unfortunately, my opponent has a Therapy of his own and is able to take the Breakthrough before I get a chance to play it. Despite being robbed of a potentially back breaking play I am able to make some zombies and a large troll over the next few turns and fly over for the win thanks to Wonder. The second game is a lot more interesting. I side in all of my enchantment hate and aggressively mulligan into a hand with both Wispmare and a Ray of Revelation. My opponent drops a turn zero Leyline of the Void and leads with Cabal Therapy naming Chain of Vapor. After answering his Leyline I get to work filling my yard while he's amassing a small army of Goyfs, EWitnesses and other dudes. (3-0-1)
Round 5, against T.E.S.
The nightmare matchup, as far as I Know combo made up about 6% of the field on Saturday (including a Solidarity player, which would be slightly less bad as we have more time to strip their hand) so I suppose facing it once in seven rounds is maybe unlucky but not such bad beats. I had no idea what he was playing and kept a hand of 7 with plans of going DDD (on the draw). I'm one turn away from getting the CTs in my yard online when he goes off. Game two he has to mulligan down to something low (it was four or five) I lead with a Duress then follow with Therapy + PImp and am able to keep his hand depleted for the rest of the game. Game three his first turn is spent making a Chrome Mox and casting Infernal Tutor to double up on Rite of Flames meaning I don't have to think too hard about what to name with Therapy when I cast it next turn. I had to mull to get some discard and he is depleted by my Therapy so we play draw go for a while until I get to seven cards. He's not able to go off so he attempts to Duress me to postpone DDD for another turn I reveal a hand of creatures and lands then take my turn and drop a troll in the yard. Two turns later he sees that I'm about to get the CTs in my graveyard online so he attempts to go off and is able to make about ten goblin tokens by wishing for Empty the Warrens. Turns out 2/2 zombies are better than 1/1 goblins and I'm able to squeak out a victory. (4-0-1)
Round 6, against Goblins
I don't remember the details of the first game too well except that I was able to take a Goblin Matron from his hand with a blind therapy only for him to draw one the next turn, must be nice. It was a tight game but I was one step behind every turn and couldn't pull ahead. Game two I keep a solid six including Tireless Tribe, Firestorm, Breakthrough, two dredgers and a land. I drop the Tribe but he returns with a Wasteland, nailing my only mana source, and Tormod's Crypt. His crypt gets my only dredger so I'm forced to draw for a couple turns, but I am able to find another land and a dredger. Firestorm takes out a couple of Piledrivers and a Warchief, my next dredge reveals two Bridges and a Cabal therapy - seems pretty good, too bad he topdecks another crypt to wipe my yard and then a Ringleader to refill his hand and overwhelm me. (4-1-1)
Round 7, against Tempo Thresh
He knows what I'm playing and essentially mulls into oblivion to trying to find a competitive hand. A couple CTs make short work of his options and the zombies march in to close the deal. Game two I'm able to stick a discard outlet and he doesn't find enough hate before my Ichorids go the distance. (5-1-1)
Top 8, against Landstill
The first game is relatively uneventful, I make some tokens and they get Wrathed, I make some more tokens and they get Wrathed. Eventually my Ichorids and Golgari Thugs can fly over his factories for a win. Game two game was very tight. I keep a shaky six of four Gemstone Mine, Golgari Thug, and Stinkweek Imp on the draw. I rip a PImp that manages to resolve despite him Brainstorming for an answer (I found out later that he found a FoW but no second blue card). My dredges start off slow and Geoff gets Crypt + Academy ruins online while I have a PImp and two Narcomoebas chipping at his life total. I draw a Cabal Therapy and blind hit a Fact or Fiction that could have potentially changed the outcome of the match. A couple turns later, at six life, he Crypts my yard and drops a NevDisk. On my upkeep I pitch a troll to PImp and dredge into Ancient grudge which removes his Disk and swing for four damage taking him to two. He's forced to draw a card off the top as Disk and Crypt can't stop me in time and he is only able to StP my PImp taking the last two damage from a pair of Narcomoebas.
Top 4, agaisnt Tempo Thresh
Game one I am able to take a pair of Lightning Bolts and a pair of Ponders with my CTs within the first three turns. He's not left with enough gas to deal with my growing army of zombies. In the second game He's able to play a few creatures pick some of mine off with Bolt and REB. Eventually I wear down his defenses and punch through for enough damage to get the win.
I split the finals with Merfolk.