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I'll just go -4 mog +4 Grim. Grim can always shoot himself in the head to deal with Ichorid. I have bolted Nactles FTW, and compared to that, he's a lot better.
The Pridemage 2 for 1 comes up infrequently, so he is usually just as good. The change hurts your affinity match up, anything else? I'm sure their are moments with jitte or something. He's still savage, even nerfed.
I'm unfamiliar with this. What are the new rulings relating to Mogg Fanatic?Quote:
Please keep in mind that with the new rulings Mogg becomes much weaker. It still serves it purpose against Dredge but in combat it is a wimp now.
Damage is now dealt as soon as it is assigned, you can no longer 'respond' to damage on the stack, so no more block-and-sac tricks with fanatic as creatures now die as soon as lethal damage is assigned.
[QUOTE=3duece;352408] no more block-and-sac tricks with fanatic /QUOTE]
False!
You can still block and sack, but you can't deal damage BOTH to the blocked creature and to the target of the ability. Now you have to choose one of them.
Quick question since I just read a sad day for magic. With the new rule changes coming into effect soon, will this kill the inclusion of mogg fanatic since it is considerably worse? Or is it still good enough for an inclusion?
Mogg is weaker, but it's still good for hosing Ichroid decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by blueneverfails
So, I've been testing out the following list:
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [R] Savannah
1 [A] Bayou
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [9E] Forest (3)
1 [R] Badlands
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
My question is about duergar hedge-mage. What are you guy's thoughts on the hedge-mage versus krosan grip (In general, though I included my list for reference since the build might matter quite a bit). He has 3cc so can still dodge counterbalance most of the time. However, I have seen a lot of countertop decks running more 3 drops, which sucks. However, there are a lot of other threats that they need to counter as well, so that's perhaps not such a large worry.
The two plains is somewhat of a restriction, but at least in my build I never find that a problem when I'm at three mana to have two of them. I really like the possibilities for 2-for-1s (Shackles and a balance maybe?), and just the added bonus of having more cards to give me some card advantage. But, I wonder how much all of it is worth compared to (virtually) always getting the job done with krosan grip. It's pretty clear that hedge-mage is better against general enchantments/artifacts, but there's not a ton of decks that really worry about them. However, hedge-mage does give me the option to bring it in versus things that I can destroy enchantments/artifacts in without having to get rid of many threats. However, the largest thing to worry about is counterbalance in my opinion, which is why grip is so good to begin with.
I probably hate too much on artifacts/enchantments to begin with, but I love stomping on blue decks all right.
You might want to shave a Hedge Mage for at least one more Grip. Hedge-Mage and Pridemage do nothing against Humility.
I find Null Rod to be a versatile sideboard answer. It's a permanent answer to EE, Top, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Jitte, and Aether Vial. It's really effective. I'd replace Canonist with 3 Null Rod.
I wouldn't bother with the Hedge Mages at all, honestly. I'd probably run an additional Grip or 2 before Hedge Mages though if one needed more hate. With 4 Pridemage and 3 Krosan Grip you have a ton of answers to Artifacts and Enchantments already.
When would you ever want to board in 4 Hedge Mage, 2 Grip and keep your 4 Pridemage? Even against Dreadstill or Probasco that seems overkill and they have about the most targets in the format.
Unless your meta has ton of Affinity or Enchantress, I would probably gear the hate to be more specific though if that's the case, like Tranquil Domain or Null Rod / Ancient Grudge.
I'm not sure what I would suggest in those spots though, your list is already geared pretty heavily against agro with 8 RFG spells and 3 Jitte, so I don't see much need of Tribal/Mirror hate. And you've already dedicated 8 spots in your 75 to Teegs and Canonists, so you've got more combo hate than most. I guess you could try Vexing Shusher or something in the SB for something else against Counterbalance and also Landstill if you see much of either. I probably wouldn't go with Null Rod in that list since you're running Vials and Jittes of your own, but maybe Pithing Needle, as it can be good against Counterbalance control, and also against Survival.
I played this deck with Hedgemages before pridemage came out, and they were pretty incredible. Thing is, Pridemage really just steals their slot. They're just not as good as the Pridemage is, even though they are more versatile. I still like them and would certainly keep them in mind as an option, since I think they are in the top tier of potential answers for zoo decks to use.
So you're saying the advantages of grip outweigh those of hedge-mage (mostly that mage can be FOWed or dazed)?Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Yet you recommend shusher against mostly counterbalance(landstill runs what, 2 counterspells?), so are you then saying hedge-mage is not useful against counterbalance?
This doesn't really answer the question of grip versus hedge-mage in the board though. Comparing hedge-mage to qasali doesn't seem to make much sense because I'm not trying to run hedge-mage main. I don't think that Qasali is enough hate on it's own, so something in the board must be needed, but I want to figure out if grip or hedge-mage is more worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
You're better off with Grip over Hedge-Mage. With your manabase anyway, Hedge-Mage seems akward to cast. If you want more utility than Grip, consider Oblivion Ring or Vindicate. They're better than Hedge-Mage.
I did top4 with the following list in the Legacy side event at GP:São Paulo yesterday.
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
2 Rift Bolt
Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Aethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
Round 1: Dreadstill
Bad match to begin the championship. :frown: . First game Lavamancer, Goyfs and burn take him to 2 life, but Dreadnought connects twice and he have Force of Will for the last burn.
Second game he plays early counterbalance, 2 big goyfs and counter my goyf and engineered explosives.
0-1
Round 2: White Stax
First game was decided in coin flip. I started with Grim Lavamancer, he plays CotV at 1. I followed with Goyf, he with CotV at 2. I play some spells that were countered by the Chalices just to make goyf bigger, and he couldn't do anything about the guys in time.
Second game he starts with a land and a Mox Diamond, but forget to play Suppresion field, that would avoid me from fetching green in the first two turns (I had double mountain and wooded foothills). I fetch green, play Quirion Dryad in my second turn. He plays the supression field, but at that point it just helped me, as it prevented he from activating his Kor Haven some turns later. Anyway, in my third turn I Bolted him, PoP him for 6 and Dryad connected for 3. A ghostly prison, an armageddon and a Crucible followed, but I draw a few lands and dryad goes the distance.
1-1
Round 3: Aggro Loam
First game he starts with Dark Confidant. I burn Bob, but couldn't put much pressure in the early game, and in the fourth turn a 6/6 Terravore was beating my face.
Second game I stomped him.
Third game was close. At the point time was called, he was at 7 life with a 3/3 Crusher, and I have a lot of life, a Taiga, Forest and 5/6 Goyf in play, a Chain Lightning and a Bolt in hand. He fetched (yeah! :laugh: ), played a Devastating Dreams taking away my 2 lands (oh, no! :cry: ), I responded with bolt. I draw nothing (third of the 5 extra turns), he does a lot of that thing Loam does (cycle, loam, etc.) but doesn't attack (I have a goyf to block, anyway), and in the fifth turn I topdeck the wooded foothills i needed to burn him with chain lightning.
2-1
Round 4: Dragon Stompy
First game he plays furst turn Arc-slogger, which killed my creatures before I could do a thing.
Second and third game Shusher joins the party to show what he thinks about Chalice of the Void :wink: . Paying 4 mana to play a bolt (with Trinisphere and CotV: 1 in play) wasn't fun, but does part of the job. Fireblast finishes him second game, and in 2 PoP for 6 each finishes the third game.
3-1
Round 5: ANT
He is a teammate and we consider drawing, but after analysing the tiebreakers we decide to play. Bad, bad match...
First game, I play some burn and creatures, and ANT do what it does best - play Ad Nauseam, draw a ton of cards, play a ton of spells, tendrils.
Second game I beatdown early, and when he Ad Nauseam he couldn't draw the tutors he needed. He died to his own Ad Nauseam.
Third game was similar to the second. I play Explosives at 0 to avoid goblin tokens and remove some mana artifacts if possible. A Canonist slows him down and take him some life, but I don't overextend as he wished for pyroclasm. He was at low life and goes for the IGG loop (I have no instant in my graveyard), but I have 4 lands in play and a Fireblast in hand.
After the match, people tell him he misplayed at some point of the third game and could have won.
4-1
After the swiss rounds, I'm third. Another 2 teammates passed in 1st (with a strange mix of Team America and ITF, that we call "Team South America" :tongue: ) and 6th (GW fish homebrew). Top 8 had also White Stax, the Dreadstill I played against in the first round, UGr Thresh with both countertop and wasteland, Ichorid and Deadguy (thanks, ScatmanX!).
Top8: GW Fish Homebrew
Another teammate :frown: . He is a great deckbuilder and player, always do top 8 with unexpected homebrew decks. But the match was a nightmare for him: Lavamancer rapes almost all of his guys, Pridemages took care of the Jittes, and there's nothing much he can do.
Top 4: Ichorid Combo
I have no sideboard against him, have not tested nor played against Ichorid before, and was very tired. First game I had no chance as he comboed out 2nd or 3rd turn, and second game I misplayed and he did his thing 2nd turn.
I finished in 4th place. The prize was a little disapointing, but I've had a lot of fun and was happy all my team did top 16.
About the list, this is my first time ever playing Zoo, and I'm very happy with it. I still like the Quirion Dryads although nobody uses she anymore. However, when siding in Krosan Grips and EE I sided out some of them as she would not grow big so easily.
I hope this report is readable in spite of my english.
Congratulation!Quote:
Originally Posted by lebarion
As for Dryad, she's quite good when you drop it early in the game, but later on she's an awful top deck when you have no cards in your hand.
What are your thoughts about Jötun Grunt? He can shrink opposing Tarmogoyfs and he's nice in mirror matches because he can disable opposing Lavamancers and a single burn spell isn't enough to kill him. I play 3 of them in my main.
Dryad is an awful magic card. It is a terrible topdeck, isn't a relevant beater unless you have over-comitted or if your opponent is beating you, and dies to to tarmogoyfs and other good magic cards. No evasion+small+poor game plan=Badtown USA
Yes, being uncounterable is huge against CB decks, cause once they establish the soft lock, thus not needing to invest counters in your spells, they'll likely be able to stockpile counters in hand to protect it. I'd take Grip all day over other Disenchant options when going against a CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I think Shusher is better against a resolved Counterbalance than Hedge-Mage, for the same reason as Grip. Landstill usually runs 10ish permission spells, 4 Force of Will, 2-3 Counterspell and 3-4 Spell Snare. Shusher itself being immune to all of them, and then being able to force through additional spells (Pridemage, Swords/Path, etc) allows you to play your game around their soft lock for an additional R per spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I played a small event yesterday with a slightly different approach to the deck. My base assumptions were that I wanted a very solid manabase while still supporting Nacatl:
Quote:
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Lighting Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Seal of Fire
4 Incinerate
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
2 Krosan Grip
SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Path to Exile
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt
Long story short I lost a single game in seven rounds (5rounds of swiss + Top4) against monored Goblins because I had nothing to board (boarded Path and left 2 Grip in).
At this moment I like the deck very much but I have some questions about your experiences with the deck:
a) How can we distribute the burn-spells? I don't like Chain Lightning at all as Sorcery-speed makes it pretty weak. Incinerate isn't optimal either but I personally wouldn't play Magma Jet over it (I don't want to raise that discussion again)
b) Mogg Fanatic. I didn't really miss it yesterday except against goblins, but I see how it improves some matchups while being below average in others.
c) Sulfuric Vortex? Good or not?
d) Are 4 Krosan Grip enough? Against Counterbalance they should be (combined with Shusher), but I'm currently considering 1-2 additional Ancient Grudge/ Qasali Pridemage against some decks like stax and especially anything with Jitte. Concering Jitte: Should we run it in the sideboard? It's obviously great against other agressive decks.
e) How should an all around sideboard look with 2 Grip main?
2 Krosan Grip (set in stone for me)
+ ??
Thanks for your help.
For what its worth, Lightning Helix is an amazing burn card that replaced Chains in my deck. Its won me a few games that I can remember. As for other burn, Incerate/Magma Jet are your next best 2 options, but Id strongly suggest at least trying Helix.
I wouldnt run Fanatic at all anymore, especially with the new rule changes on the horizon, he looses too much from them. Also, you run pridemages in the sb I saw but why not MB? They are absolute bombs for 2, IMO. I run 4 mainboard and havent ever sided them out.
I havent ever tried Vortex so I cant really pass judgement, but from knowing how I have used Helix and Jitte on occasion in the past, gaining life for me is sometimes important. Granted, it does negate the "downside" of swords, but I dont know if its worth it overall.
Actually, you dont run swords, so it might be a better option for you.
I run jitte mainboard personally, but I have heard arguments for having it SB. It all really comes down to personal preference. 3 Grips should be plenty too, 4 is a bit much (if your running pridemages anyway).
For your sideboard, it really is meta dependant, Id suggest Crypts, a couple Pridemages (Depending how many are MB), Ethersworn Cannonist or even Gaddok Teeg are great against combo, however they require white. Same with Orim's Chant.
Other than that, it looks solid. Oh, and try out cursed scroll sometime, I think it would be a slightly better fit than Seal of Fire, especially late game.
Cursed Scroll is something I'll try for sure, thanks for the idea. Three mana might be a lot but playng one or maybe two might be good.
I can see how Pridemage is awesome, but for me it was important not having to rely on white mana game 1 (Nacatl is still decent as 2/2).
Also I didn't want to play all that many two-drops and Shusher is better than Pridemage against blue decks imho. The idea of additional artifact/enchantment removal was more geared towards non-blue decks.
I have a question about the Sideboard.
Why does no one run REB? I have only seen 1 sideboard in the last 5 pages of this thread with it.
I understand that this deck wants to use its mana to cast creatures, but it seems to solve a lot of problems. You can side it in against all the counterbalance decks, merfolk, landstill, combo(even just for mystical and bstorm), and random stuff like solidarity and farie stompy. Its even very good against Painter as you blow there painter up in response to the grindsone (if there using the REB version).
Any help?