[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

Well, intuition does not provide the full combo, but that's no problem really. Depending on the game state you will intuition for different cards, and many times you will have already one of the four cards you need to combo off in hand or on the board. In any case, I think the most uncommon intuition piles I use to do are the ones with just combo pieces: Against aggro and aggrocontrol your first intuition goes for any combination of loam+ruins+explosives+shackles+maze, against control loam+dust bowl+ruins+sword+top, against combo 3x counterspell or 3x fow... Unless you have one piece of the combo already in hand, your first intuition should give you a good position on the board simply. Winning the game is for the second one, or most of the time you won't even need to intuition another time just to win because in the meantime you've drawn already the combo or a jace. Remember what I said some posts above: intuition in this deck is just an useful tool but nothing else, you don't need to resolve an intuition in evey game to win. The deck is not intuition nor graveyard dependant, cards like maze of ith, dust bowl, shackles, explosives... are excellent cards on their own. Obviously it's better if you can recur them, but they don't rely on this. Much like I'ts the Fear, another similar deck to this one that I've succesfully played during many months in the past

Is it worth main-decking Tarmogoyf with the thopter sword combo? It turns on their removal but gives us Goyf!

Also, if I don't have a few hundred dollars to blow on Moat, is Humility acceptable?

Humility works just fine, I use it myself, though it does bring its own set of pros and cons. You could also just go without a 2WW enchantment and lean a little bit more on Shackles and Ensnaring Bridge. Humility + Bridge is a nonbo however... I've been thinking, running Porphyry Nodes could reduce the size of the horde sitting across from whatever army-stopping card you go with, so you wouldn't get blown out by Grip quite as bad.

After testing Porphyry Nodes, I think the card is too slow. Without Humility, Nodes are almost useless and with, is overkill or underploited.

Krosan Grip:

What are some ways we can stop this card from ruining our day? I propose the following ways to deal with Grip:

Hanna's Custody

+ Protects the combo.
+ Must be killed before the combo can be hit.
+ Can be tutored for.
- Can still be answered by Grip or pridemage.
- Doesn't protect Counterbalance.

Meddling Mage

+ Prevents Grip from being cast at all.
+ Requires removal to kill, which the opponent likely removed.
+ Can answer other cards.
+ Can be pitched to force.
- Can't be tutored.
- Dies to lots of removal [Bad vs Zoo].



Any other suggestions?

Running intuition solves completely the grip "problem" (it isn't a problem at all, it's just a 1x1) by tutoring ruins and loam and therefore recurring any artifact you may need (again). And that way you don't need to run bad cards like the ones you named or the like.

Would I run Intuition in the board or main decked?

Some of the better cards are enchantments however, and it is a problem when you get alpha-striked

@versus: thanks for the advice about nodes, I don't get a chance to test much.

I think it's wise for this deck to have a backup plan if the Thopter plan doesn't work out for whatever reason, be it Grip, Needle, or just not drawing the pieces. If finishing matches on time is a problem, I'd play more planeswalkers, going up to 4-5 Jace+Elspeth. A wincon that was tutorable and recurable would be nice too. Chimeric Mass was actually suggested... I'm dubious but hey maybe it's just the thing.

Hanna's Custody might be almost good if it shrouded enchantments too. It's an old card, so it's due for a power creep update right...?

@Frid, I'm intruiged your advocacy of Intuition as the main tutor for this deck. You've put forth some convincing arguments for its use, and it may indeed be that that's the way forward for Thopters. I haven't tested your version but certainly the casting cost difference in the tutors will make a difference in how the deck can is played. Neither better nor worse, in that regard, just different; you'll do other things besides tutoring in the early turns. I also see that you run neither Humility nor Moat. A clever way to avoid getting into the situation of losing your seemingly impenetrable wall, not having one in the first place.

You don't need enchantments at all in this deck apart from counterbalance, and many times it is better to do so especially post sb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by say no to scurvy

how viable is this without moat? i've been searching a while and found an italian list that top4ed a 31-man tourney

Code:

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4 x flooded strand
4 x scalding tarn
4 x island
1 x plain
1 x mountain
3 x tundra
2 x volcanic island
1 x tropical island
1 x academy ruins
1 x seat of the synod
2 x vendilion clique
4 x sensei's divining top
4 x counterbalance
2 x spell snare
4 x swords to plowshares
2 x firespout
1 x oblivion ring
1 x vedalken shackles
2 x jace the mind sculptor
2 x thopter foundry
1 x sword of the meek
4 x brainstorm
3 x enlightened tutor

SIDE:
2 x sower of temptation
2 x red elemental blast
1 x pyroblast
1 x firespout
2 x spell pierce
1 x tormod's crypt
1 x engineered explosives
1 x pithing needle
2 x relic of progenitus
1 x ethersworn canonist
1 x humility

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I played this list last week and scored 2nd, I splitted in the finalas with Ichorid and gave him the victory.

The deck is strong, and will be definitely the tier1 control deck in Legacy, but we have to adapt it to the new meta. Countertop decks are spreading out in verious ways (Baseruption, Supreme Blue, Thopter) and the field response is anti-balance decks (Goblin, Merfolk and Maverick GW) and some combos (Ichorid, Sneak&Show and so on).

The Counterbalance curve must be set well, with 5-6 cc3 drops, and we have to fully exploit our bomb-tutor with at least one artifact/enchantment drop for every casting cost, including 4 (tutoring moat/humility to counterbalance an opponent Jace IS a good play). Firespout/Ensaring bridge/Vedalkenb Shackles are also good ways to slow fast aggro 'til the time we set the combo.

I think we have to concentrate on the other Counterbalance decks: since that the first who resolves Top+Balance gains the quasi-win, and since they play Daze so they can go Countertop with maybe double protection, we have to react properly:

-Spell snare is necessary to avoid too many losses from mirrors; although Counterspell is good, it is not enough, so a 2-3 spell snares heklp us against Counterbalance and also Goyf, Confidant, a bunch of Merfolks and some other sad cards like Infernal Tutor, Qasali Pridemage and so on.

-Repeal is a bomb against Vial Decks, we enter CounterTop and then repeal they're vial, and suddenly we're closer to the victory. Unfortunately this is a not tutorable card and the space in the deck is very scarce...maybe Pithing Needle is a better move.

-Jace Beleren is a cc3 drop that's nuts against control and is very very useful to remove an opponent's Jace, TMS. I've added a couple in sideboard against such decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frid

You don't need enchantments at all in this deck apart from counterbalance, and many times it is better to do so especially post sb.

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Counterbalance is very much essential in most matchups, along with O-ring, and moat/humility. Post board, yeah, more artifacts, but they can still tempo you with grip despite you being able to recur Artifact X

This is what im testing in MWS to use thopther with new Tezz:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical
1 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel

3 Trinket Make

Control and manipulation
4 Force of Will
4 CounterBalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
1 Life from the loam
1 Enlightened Tutor

Win conditions
2 Thopther Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone
1 Vedalken Shakles
3 Tezzeret

Utility and silver bullets
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihilit Spellbomb
1 Executioners Capsule
1 Dispellers Capsule
1 EE

The deck has 3 different win conditions: painting, thopther-sword, tezzeret himself while also having the cb lock and a lot of ways to find its key cards.

The deck is slow but if you survive early turns is very hard to beat it as you have answers to almost anything. Is very adaptable to anymeta as the silver bullets can change depending of what you expect but this are the more generalistic i've found. One important thing when doing the sivler bullet package is use bullets that are never dead or they cantrip.

You can also ignore the silver bullets part and go straight combo wich will make you faster but more vulnerable:
-5 silvers -1 Vedalken (never get out Bridge)
+2 Grindstone
+2 Painter Servant
+1 Sword of the meek
+1 Thopther Foundry
Maybe we can go full combo main and use all the silvers in the side, i have to test this more.

When playing the deck i would advise you to not use tezz with your win conditions unless you must have to as you dont have many and they need another especific card to win, being vulnerable to stop its no good. Lands or silver bullets are the best targets.

The majority of games you will won it on the spot with painters or do some tokens then ultimate tezz. You will find that you will need to use the 5/5 to block until you find a Bridge or a Shackles. the games where you can go agroo with 5/5 are rare.

With 3 trinkets and 1 ET, 4 Bs and 3 intuition you can establish any of the combos fast, just be sure you have ways to protect them or you can just win. Its almost always better to establish countertop and then go slowly for the win condition.

Pithing needle is main for a reason, use it wisely.

Cards that hurt you are trygon, qasali, krosan, aura of silence, serenity, leyline of sanctity, extirpate. The good thing is you have ansers for them all.

Sb is still in work but it will be something transformational like:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyrexian Reworker (or whatever is called pithing on legs)
3 Master of Etherium
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Meekstone
1 Aether Spellbomb
4 Leyline of Sanctity

You have no counters except for Force of will, so statistically you lose to enemy countertops which run dazes or Snares.

You have no spot removals, so you can easily lose to a single T1 wild Nacatl while you lose time to find a proper solution.

The deck tries to do a lot of things, and do all of them bad. try to build a solid shell and decide the main winning conditions...in a countertop shell you cannot put a bunch of powerful cards just because they're good, you need to be a control deck that, when is finally in total control, drops his win-con and closes the game.

What decks is CounterTop thopter best suited to fight? I know from testing it's amazing against combo due to having 8 Counterbalances ala Enlightened Tutor, but how does it fair VS Zoo, tribal and control decks? I'd imagine that due to the card disadvantage of the tutor and Force of Will that this decks weakness is dedicated control decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I'd imagine that due to the card disadvantage of the tutor and Force of Will that this decks weakness is dedicated control decks.

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That's one of the main reasons I vastly prefer intuition over enlightened tutor. Your pairing against aggro might be a bit weaker but your pairing against aggrocontrol and other control decks is MUCH better.

I really like Frid's recent lists with Intuition, but I also have been looking for a deck to run *old* Tezz. Has this been tried? I was thinking this deck might be a good home for him, because you're already running some artifact lands to abuse his + ability, and you can use him to search out combo pieces or ensnaring bridge, and this deck has a mana sink so his + ability isn't entirely useless late game (whereas most artifact mana accel decks I try to put him in eventually get to the "too much mana and nothing to do with it" phase). And when people board in grips, he can be an alternate win condition.

Probably win more, right?

I'm just curious if anyone has tested him.

Old Tezzeret is slow as hell, isn't it? In vintage people don't play it anymore because of his high cost despite being a one turn clock by itself with time vault in the deck.

I haven't played him in thopters but i did play him in a weird grindstone/counterbalance deck as a two of at first then a 1/1 split with JTMS.

He's been good to me when he resolved cause of his raw tutor power, but basically if you're resolving 5 cc sorcery speed things they had better be good, and its not really fair to say oh i resolved him and then won the game == good
Because:
1) If you opponent had a counter he would not have let you resolve a planeswalker.
2) If you opponent has no counter you can resolve anything and win the game -> so its not really tezz but the fact that i already won the control war and tezz just sped up closing the game and acted as a finisher.

Because there were plenty of times I had him in my hand in the course of the game and he sat there because I could not stabilize/could not afford 5 mana/ had other things to do.

If you are in a position to resolve tezz and then untap you're probably doing fine anyways, the biggest problem I have had with this deck is stabilizing the game. Once you stabilize and your combo kicks in you're going to win pretty much guaranteed so big late game drops that don't help you get to that point and don't really help when you're dying are probably win more. Like I am aware you can tutor for your missing combo piece with him but you don't have mana to spend to gain life until next turn 99% of the time and at that point you're either dead or as I said you were stabilized already. I hate to say it but Jace 2 is probably better in the PW slot for his versatility and power, although a CB deck with Tezz 2 is very intriguing since he can throw a blocker on the field to stop the bleeding, comes down earlier and can win you the game outside the red zone...but Jace is probably still stronger curse him :(

Tl;dr:
Tezz doesn't help much when you're behind and if you're ahead Tezz could be anything since you've stabilized, ergo with this sort of deck you're winning. There are other powerful cards you could probably play with that impact the board and have the potential to come down a lot earlier.

I've yet to play against this deck. How frequently does Jace pull off his ultimate finisher?