[DTB] Blade Control

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Originally Posted by preddi

Hmm i think disenchant is not versatile enough. I'd rather play O-Ring instead, but EE looks superior to O-Ring in most cases.
I also think EE is a fine card to bring in against creature heavy decks. Sure, Path/Disenchant are superior to EE at their respective fields, but i always think flexible cards are better in the wild west of legacy.

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I think we have a different view on SBs in general:
In my opinion The MD is supposed to be versatile and streamlined, while the SB slots should be occupied with specific hate. REB is a good example. You see, nobody would say: "REB can only target blue permanents and spells, thus it's not sufficiently versatile as a SB choice". With Disenchant it's quite the same.
To me Oblivion Ring is an "anti-SB" card in that it's a Swiss knife, so quite the opposite of "specific hate" (barring Show and Tell.dec). The same applies to EE (if to a lesser degree, since it's able to kill multiple tokens for 2 mana). The argument that it hits multiple one drops is, as stated before, not very convincing in a deck packing 3 Wraths and 6 reusable spot removals.

And let me stress it again: Disenchant is Snapcastable.
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Originally Posted by klaus

I think we have a different view on SBs in general:
In my opinion The MD is supposed to be versatile and streamlined, while the SB slots should be occupied with specific hate. REB is a good example. You see, nobody would say: "REB can only target blue permanents and spells, thus it's not sufficiently versatile as a SB choice". With Disenchant it's quite the same.
To me Oblivion Ring is an "anti-SB" card in that it's a Swiss knife, so quite the opposite of "specific hate" (barring Show and Tell.dec). The same applies to EE (if to a lesser degree, since it's able to kill multiple tokens for 2 mana). The argument that it hits multiple one drops is, as stated before, not very convincing in a deck packing 3 Wraths and 6 reusable spot removals.

And let me stress it again: Disenchant is Snapcastable.
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I play with 2 disenchant in my SB and love them. The fact that they are snapcastable makes them quite good.

I agree with klaus. Between the early pressure from Maverick and you playing either wrath or EE you must have tapped out at some point, and a skilled Mav player plants the choke there.

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

Your SB looks legit.
But those Relics are quite terrible with Snappy.
I'd strongly suggest S.Extraction #3&4.
Also: EE should be Disenchant imo.

Relics are indeed terrible with snappy, but mostly you want against the graveyard decks that you remove the whole graveyard and not just only one card, I think :)
Also EE is a really good card and doesn't kill your own creatures.
Disenchant doesn't kill everything but EE does, that's why he's better I would say.

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Yes, I have the 2/2 split of graveyard removal for decks like dredge where I want to remove their whole graveyard. It's one of the cheaper decks out there and I never want to lose to it so I always make sure I pack at least 4 pieces of hate. They're not good with snapcaster but I like that I can remove the whole yard, cantrip, or just prolong it over time with relics tap ability. I'm sure the relics can be Tormod's Crypts which will only remove one players graveyard (I've been thinking about making the switch), S.Extraction #3&4, Purify the Graves, etc but I do know that I want at least 4 pieces since there are decks like Dredge and Reanimator out there on any given Sunday.

There is a valid case for removing EE and adding something like Disenchant which I've considered before and I definitely don't condemn anyone who makes the switch I just haven't ran into an issue with EE yet and like it a lot currently. Aura of Silence is another option I've ran in the past as it can hit random problem cards, and is really good against Stax, Affinity, Enchantress, but isn't good with snapcaster.

I tried and gave up shackles for moat, it buys more time against maverick and it is instant win against some decks.

I like EE MD and I'm still curious why more lists don't run it. They can be swapped in for more specific hate when appropriate, and can be fantastic with Academy Ruins on the board.

I'm planning on trying Dismantling Blow in place of Disenchant in my SB. It gets around Countertop (not that I've seen a lot of Countertop) and, perhaps more importantly, Spell Snare, but with the obvious caveat that it requires an extra mana, also making it harder to snapcast. The potential for card draw is just a bonus. Anyone tried this? I'm also curious how the Auras work out. For two white and the downside of announcing themselves, it seems a little risky.

Re: Relic/Crypt vs Reanimator: in my albeit limited experience, removing the entire graveyard from a reanimator deck doesn't seem that necessary. Between counters and removal, its not too difficult to completely disrupt a reanimator, and then put them on a clock of your own with Batterskull (and they have little to answer Jace with as well). If you hold onto your Extraction/Snappy until they attempt a reanimation, then remove their target, they'll be hurting enough, IMO. And the nice thing about Extraction is you can (snap)cast it w/o any mana, so it doesn't matter how fast they are. Extraction is also useful against other decks, such as control.

List I have been brewing with. Changes to normal stock list because I was having a hard time with aggro decks (maverick, Zoo, and RUG tempo to some extent). Please comment and discuss to try and make the deck better.

Main:

2 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
3 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

side:
2 Path to Exile
3 Wrath of God
4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Disenchant
1 Force of Will

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Originally Posted by matunos

I'm planning on trying Dismantling Blow in place of Disenchant in my SB. It gets around Countertop (not that I've seen a lot of Countertop) and, perhaps more importantly, Spell Snare, but with the obvious caveat that it requires an extra mana, also making it harder to snapcast. The potential for card draw is just a bonus. Anyone tried this?

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I used to have an on/off thing with D. Blow back in the good ol Landstill days.
The bonus draw happened maybe at a rate of 5% of the games - less than I had expected.
CB.dec is an argument in D.Blows favor but the higher cost is a bigger downside than at first sight (no pun intended).
Maverick packing Wasteland is an issue here. So are: a turn2 Sylvan Library, Loadstone Golem, Aether Vial, Metal Worker - the list goes on. Plus flashsnap will cost you 5. Also being semi-tapped out against a resolved Choke will cost you about 2 extra turns in average to find that third land.

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Originally Posted by lambert101

List I have been brewing with. Changes to normal stock list because I was having a hard time with aggro decks (maverick, Zoo, and RUG tempo to some extent). Please comment and discuss to try and make the deck better.

Main:

2 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
3 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

side:
2 Path to Exile
3 Wrath of God
4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Disenchant
1 Force of Will

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3 wog 4 pte and 4 stp seems like a little bit of overkill with snapcaster. I run 2 wog, 3 pte, 4 stp which would free up two more SB slots for you. Similarly I don't know that 3 disenchant are necessary, I'd drop to 2 but I don't know your meta. More surgicals wouldn't be a bad idea, 2 gy hate cards seems too low. The md is pretty stock, I see nothing wrong with running 2 pte main. 2 JTMS might prove too few in control mirrors but if you are facing lots of aggro you probably don't miss jace #3 much.

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Originally Posted by chags

3 wog 4 pte and 4 stp seems like a little bit of overkill with snapcaster. I run 2 wog, 3 pte, 4 stp which would free up two more SB slots for you. Similarly I don't know that 3 disenchant are necessary, I'd drop to 2 but I don't know your meta. More surgicals wouldn't be a bad idea, 2 gy hate cards seems too low. The md is pretty stock, I see nothing wrong with running 2 pte main. 2 JTMS might prove too few in control mirrors but if you are facing lots of aggro you probably don't miss jace #3 much.

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Very good points. 2 thumbs up!

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Originally Posted by klaus

Very good points. 2 thumbs up!

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Thank you sir.

P.S. what does your list look like these days?

So there's a free Win-a-set of Sinkholes event at my LGS this Sunday and this is my current list I'm planning to take. Your thoughts would be much appreciated as I'm going on a holiday from Tuesday until Saturday to a place with no internet connection :P

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Preordain
2 Counterspell
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Purify the Grave
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Cheers,
Zen

My suggestions: cut preodrains for spell pierces MD they will catch some ppl with their pants down, or engeenired explosives (cause you play U/W/r). Replace Purify the Grave for extraction for me it is strictly better.

I see a lot ppl switching to maverick what is the best list against them?

Stoneblade in general has a hard time with Maverick- But I see UWr superior due to EE at 3 + the normal UW Cards Wrath, Swords, Path + Snappy

I don't see why u wouldnt want to play uwr atm.Some lists are playing red for sb blasts anyway(which I think u should def do,as they win the blue mirror etc). Most Ux lists are playing with 4snapcaster and the other stock blue cards.In addition u can play with some grim lavamancer main and/or side,which really help out a lot in the maverick and other aggro mu's. The manabase is still stable so I see very few reasons to not do so.

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Originally Posted by chags

P.S. what does your list look like these days?

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I've actually cut the blade part, since I witnessed myself boarding it out way too often. - I'm aware it might not be appropriate to post bladeless lists on this thread, but maybe the approach sparks another more on topic stream of thought.

Anyway, Cliques haven't convinced me lately (I'm facing an aggro meta) which is why I replaced them with 2 Vedalken Shackles. And well, I've built the list around S. Hawks - once again. Snapcaster doubling your Brainstorms (the card that breaks Hawks) is an insane addition to this strategy. You now don't have to hold back you early BSs, which is huge. Hawks basically replace Sprites - a reasonable switch imo.

Further more, the manabase is rock solid and B2B is a neat addition to the SB. 7 reusable cantrips justify low land count (21) - I hardly ever get screwed, but draw a tad more action throughout the game.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Mountain
5 Island
1 Plains

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
1 Path to Exile
2 Back to Basics
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God

Interestingly I seem to win most games via combat damage (even w/o Shackles), which confuses me a little bit, since I'm only running 8 mini dudes w/o any equipment. Apparently it's the abnormal CA/CQ that this deck generates, while controlling the ground (and most decks don't play 8 removal spells).
Possible change: -1 Bolt +1 Clique/Lavamancer

Check out this thread for further insights:

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Originally Posted by Philipp802

Stoneblade in general has a hard time with Maverick- But I see UWr superior due to EE at 3 + the normal UW Cards Wrath, Swords, Path + Snappy

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The Stoneblade vs Maverick debate is soooo last year!

j/k :smile:

FWIW, it would be nice to see the matchups section of the primer updated for this post-MM world.

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Originally Posted by Philipp802

Stoneblade in general has a hard time with Maverick- But I see UWr superior due to EE at 3 + the normal UW Cards Wrath, Swords, Path + Snappy

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My UWr stoneblade list with 3 MD bolts, 4 stp, 2 wog, and 1 EE in the 75 hasn't dropped a game against maverick in the last three tournaments I've played in (in which I faced it 5 times).

I really like klaus' idea of dropping the stoneforge package and play a straight UWR Snapcaster Control list. This list is what I'm playing in my local tourneys:

4 Tundra
1 Riptide Labatory
1 Snow-Covered Plains
6 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
= 24

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard:

2 Wrath of God
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
1 Elspeth, the Knight Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Purify the Grave

My meta consists of a lot of RUG decks playing mongoose instead of Snapcasters, Maverick and some decks like Nic Fit, etc.
I play Underground Sea because of EE and Surgical Extraction. Sometimes you just do not want to pay two.
I'm thinking about playing 4 Surgical Extractions and cutting 1 Jace for 1 Vedalcken Shakles.

What do you guys think? For further discussion:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...089#post611089

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Originally Posted by klaus

I've actually cut the blade part, since I witnessed myself boarding it out way too often. - I'm aware it might not be appropriate to post bladeless lists on this thread, but maybe the approach sparks another more on topic stream of thought.

Anyway, Cliques haven't convinced me lately (I'm facing an aggro meta) which is why I replaced them with 2 Vedalken Shackles. And well, I've built the list around S. Hawks - once again. Snapcaster doubling your Brainstorms (the card that breaks Hawks) is an insane addition to this strategy. You now don't have to hold back you early BSs, which is huge. Hawks basically replace Sprites - a reasonable switch imo.

Further more, the manabase is rock solid and B2B is a neat addition to the SB. 7 reusable cantrips justify low land count (21) - I hardly ever get screwed, but draw a tad more action throughout the game.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Mountain
5 Island
1 Plains

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
1 Path to Exile
2 Back to Basics
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God

Interestingly I seem to win most games via combat damage (even w/o Shackles), which confuses me a little bit, since I'm only running 8 mini dudes w/o any equipment. Apparently it's the abnormal CA/CQ that this deck generates, while controlling the ground (and most decks don't play 8 removal spells).
Possible change: -1 Bolt +1 Clique/Lavamancer

Check out this thread for further insights:

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i've faced/tried a similar list. i am not sure how you are making it work. hawks feel opposing when you are playing control vs control, but against anything else, they are just CA and 1/1.

for example, against hexproof, thrun, new geist lists, and resolved MOMs, you are zero outs pre, and 2 outs post. your 1/1 blockers won't last long in that phase.

i do agree that this beats other UW or delver or anything goyf centric.